Timing or Trim?

[ladyhawke 0]

Are stand up landings more likely to happen when you have appropriate sized risers hence flare timing (and range) is more accurate or is it the trim of the canopy?

"It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities." - A. Dumbledore

[mikepall 0]

huh?

[billvon 3,080]

It is primarily timing. Riser size has little to do with timing, but does have something to do with stroke length. Trim is usually not an issue unless the canopy is badly out of trim.

[ladyhawke 0]

My landings last weekend were so much better and I was wondering if it's because I changed to shorter risers or because the type of canopy (demoing a Pilot)?

"It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities." - A. Dumbledore

[ladyhawke 0]

So if I had risers that were too long the stroke length could not be completed hence not a complete flare. Correct?

"It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities." - A. Dumbledore

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Riser length could also effect the brake settings and should be taken into consideration by whoever changed the risers. So from that aspect riser length could change the flair of the canopy.

[jakee 1,564]

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Riser length could also effect the brake settings

Why?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[ladyhawke 0]

That's what I think! All this time the brakes were not set right on my risers. No wonder I had trouble! I can't believe it took me SO LONG to figure that out!

"It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities." - A. Dumbledore

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Because the ring that holds your brake line to the riser can be a different distance from the canopy depending on the length of the risers. If the risers are longer it cna tighten the brake setting, if they are shorter it can loosen the brake setting. This is assuming that no change is made in the brake line.

[jakee 1,564]

Did not know that. I would have assumed that the guide ring and toggle tabs were always roughly the same distance from the top of the riser, no matter the total length.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 3,080]

> Riser length could also effect the brake settings and should be taken
> into consideration by whoever changed the risers.

This will affect openings but NOT flare. The ring location on the riser has no effect once the brakes are pulled down. The overall length of the riser (and the fit of the rig) will affect how deep the flare can be. Usually not an issue since distance from top of riser to ring doesn't vary much.

Some guidelines:

When your canopy opens, the tail should be significantly pulled down. If your openings are OK (smooth, on heading) it is likely that your brake setpoint is OK. If not, the brake line above the stow should be adjusted by a rigger.

Once the toggles are released and returned to the full-flight position, the tail of the canopy should NOT be pulled down. There should be a little bit of slack in the lines, and you should be able to fly comfortably with your hands all the way up. If there is not enough slack, the brake line should be adjusted BELOW the stow.

During the flare, you should be able to significantly deflect the tail and slow the canopy. If it's a large canopy and you have short arms, you may have to take a "wrap" on the brake lines to get enough flare distance.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

I miss typed when I used the word setting. I was speaking of the adjustment below the brake setting loop.

[ladyhawke 0]

Ok, so when I'm flaring and my arms are all the way down in front of me and I'm not stopping that means the flare distance is longer than my arms and I should take a wrap. It doesn't have anything to do with where the brakes are set. Right? Then does that mean I need shorter risers?

"It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities." - A. Dumbledore

[billvon 3,080]

>It doesn't have anything to do with where the brakes are set. Right?

Well, take a look at your brake lines when flying with your arms all the way up. They should be _slightly_ bowed. If they are very bowed, and you have to pull them down a foot to get the tail to deflect at all, then you can shorten the lower brake lines to get a bit more flare.

>Then does that mean I need shorter risers?

Shorter risers mean _less_ flare. (Shorter stroke distance.) Generally a wrap is going to work a bit better.

[JohnMitchell 16]

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Ok, so when I'm flaring and my arms are all the way down in front of me and I'm not stopping that means the flare distance is longer than my arms and I should take a wrap. It doesn't have anything to do with where the brakes are set. Right? Then does that mean I need shorter risers?

Your hands will only go as far downwards as you can reach. (obvious point, I know.) Short risers would hold the canopy closer to your body, giving you less flare. Longer risers would give you more flare.

I'm saying the different canopy is the biggest difference, not the riser length. Also, your abilities are probably improving.

[ladyhawke 0]

Well then if it's the canopy how is the Pilot so different from a Spectre, Silhouette, Sabre2, and Safire2? Of these I've demoed I L-O-V-E the way the Safire2 flies and responds however my stand up landings were 50%. The Pilot flies ok and responds meh, but stand up landing were 100%.
This is hard.

"It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities." - A. Dumbledore

[billvon 3,080]

>how is the Pilot so different from a Spectre, Silhouette, Sabre2, and Safire2?

They're all different canopies! Every canopy will differ in how they flare, how much pressure you'll feel on the brake lines, how much flare you get deep in the stroke etc. Different canopy sizes, different amounts of line wear, different length risers, collapsible vs non-collapsible PC's, whether you wear weight etc can all have an effect.

[quade 4]

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Are stand up landings more likely to happen when you have appropriate sized risers hence flare timing (and range) is more accurate or is it the trim of the canopy?

Stand up landings are more likely to happen when you have more practice.

On thing not mentioned so far in this thread is the concept of appropriately inputting the controls. I realize this may sound like timing, but it's far more than just that.

Imagine yourself heading toward a brick wall at 60 mph. You can (basically) do one of two things;

1) Pick the perfect place to apply 100% of brake pressure so that the car skids to a stop with 3 inches remaining between the car and that wall.

2) Find a spot where you can apply 0% to 100% of the brake pressure and then add or subtract more pressure according to how the car is reacting.

Which is less reliant on "perfect" timing and which do you think will have the greatest amount of success?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[jheadley 0]

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Did not know that. I would have assumed that the guide ring and toggle tabs were always roughly the same distance from the top of the riser, no matter the total length.

They are, the industry standard is 4 inches.

[peregrinerose 0]

Do you do practice flares up high? Find the stall point of each canopy up high? If not, it's tough to know exactly how/when to flare, or if the brake settings are right for you.

If I am jumping something with factory brake settings (and I have 21" risers), on Sabre2s and Spectres, I need to wrap the brake lines about 2 inches (which is why I usually shorten them about 2 inches...talk to your rigger ... don't try it yourself). With that little bit shorter brake, I can still use front riser input without deflecting the tail on both canopies, but not have to wrap my brakes to land. When I jumped a Pilot, I had no problem with the flare at factory settings, the flare seemed to happen at about 3/4 arms length for me.

Keep in mind that these are on 135/150 Sabre2 and Spectre and a 132 Pilot, I don't know what size you're jumping.

If you're having problems with landing, play with the flare/stalling at altitude and have someone shoot video of your landings, you'll learn a LOT. Take a canopy control course too... some of the best money you'll spend in skydiving is with Brian Germain and/or Scott Miller. I take a canopy course once a year, and plan to continue to do so... there's always something to improve upon.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Because the ring that holds your brake line to the riser can be a different distance from the canopy depending on the length of the risers. If the risers are longer it cna tighten the brake setting, if they are shorter it can loosen the brake setting. This is assuming that no change is made in the brake line.

The ring to riser top is standardized (4" rings a bell) which makes a lot of sense because the relation of the brake line to the other lines determines the canopy's opening characteristics.

The differences are entirely in the user interface. Shorter risers are going to require more arm movement to get a full flare.

[bob.dino 1]

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I'm saying the different canopy is the biggest difference, not the riser length. Also, your abilities are probably improving.

I'm with John on both counts.

I've personally watched one very experienced, very heads-up jumper massively improve both her landing quality and confidence when she switched from a Stiletto to a Pilot.

[ladyhawke 0]

So, ok maybe the flaring characteristics on the Pilot match my skill level better than the others I've demoed. My goal is to be a great canopy pilot! So should I stick with a canopy I enjoy flying and learn the flare stroke for that canopy or do I compromise on the flying for the flaring?

"It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities." - A. Dumbledore

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Can you tell us what kind of problem you have been having in your landings?

[ladyhawke 0]

I've been told I don't complete my flare and I usually fall down or crash.

"It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities." - A. Dumbledore