Do you agree with the way this demo was handled?

[JCW1966 0]

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Ok I take my flag down at night and fold it like im supposed to ect. I take no offense to that video. The jumper quickly jumped up and gathered the flag, which is ok in my book

Thank You!

[JCW1966 0]

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3. Still, I personally don't think it is a good idea to be immortalized on film as such. Maybe I'm wrong. I've done a lot of things I wouldn't want the video to be put out there on the internet for all to see...not for free anyway

Would rather the already critical dropzone.com public see video of the demos that turned out better? Maybe Clark could post some of those for you? No offense, but on more than one occasion on the originating newsgroup there has been a cleverly cynical (non-personal-attacking) post deleted, so why not an unflattering video link?

Ok I'll PM you with a bill for watching
I'm working on getting more videos. If you go back to the page and scroll down to the 3rd table(July & August) the very last link is for a demo Eddie did in Villa Rica. Joe tried to catch the flag as Eddie landed. I thought Joe was going to get his arm yanked out of socket but he didn't and Eddie stood the landing.

[johndh1 0]

Yeah, the rocket thing is an interesting hobby, I'll say that, and when I have time to get the refresher, I'll tell you a story of a close friend who tried to tell everyone what he saw up-close while out joy-flying last year South of Talladega, I think - good reminder to always check NOTAMs even before simple local pleasure flights.

Just don't get in a hurry and get your hobby-gear mixed up running out the door on Saturday morning:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcW_Ygs6hm0

Roll Tide Roll

[JCW1966 0]

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Yeah, the rocket thing is an interesting hobby, I'll say that, and when I have time to get the refresher, I'll tell you a story of a close friend who tried to tell everyone what he saw up-close while out joy-flying last year South of Talladega, I think - good reminder to always check NOTAMs even before simple local pleasure flights.

Just please don't get in a hurry and get your hobby-gear mixed up running out the door on Saturday morning:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcW_Ygs6hm0

I know what he saw. It was 17 miles south of Pell City airport and was about the size of a telephone pole. And it was under a 35' round. He should have turned and flew away, instead he decided to fly circles around it. He got close enough for the onboard camera to actually pick up the sound of the motor from his airplane over the wind noise. The FAA was not real thrilled after he complained to them so we just turned over the video to them and let them listen to his motor. They came to the same conclusion we did. Once he saw it in the air he should have turned and left the airspace but he didn't. I guess his curiosity got the best of him. Bottom line - Do not fly your plane towards parachutes with telephone pole size objects hanging underneath them. Matter of fact don't fly towards any chute period. Glad it wasn't a skydiver.

Onboard video:
http://www.pmwonline.org/multimedia/walt_ub/overall_320x240.wmv - warning 62 meg video file, might take a sec to download.

We take every precaution we can, check for clear airspace, etc... What I don't understand is why he chose to fly towards a 35' round instead of away from it. Once we hit the fire button that's it, there's no turning back. That's why we have waivers and NOTAMS for that airspace. On another note I haven't seen his airplane in that airspace again. Is he checking his NOTAM's now?

Yeah getting my gear mixed up wouldn't be a good thing. Like jumping the 28' round in my basement wouldn't be any fun, at least not for my newbie butt. Do I have any takers? Manufactured in 1997, has never been jumped and is in excellent condition. Needs a harness. Can I use this thing like a parasail behind a boat?

[johndh1 0]

Let me correct some things for you:

His call to the FSS (at that time, Anniston) Flight Service Station to double-check, not the FAA. IT was not to complain but to inquire as to the nature of object that day. The thing is, it is well known that the area you launch from is also a military training route. His further investigation was out of concern for a possibly distressed aircraft or pilot.

He was told at that time (upon landing) by the FSS, that they knew nothing about what was going on there. Others called too, and were told the same thing the day, concerned about their own local departures. Later, upon pressing and insisting, after a while the briefer on-duty finally found it buried in FDC NOTAMS.

After contacting numerous pilots, as well as CAP, and the ASC-West Pell City jump plane pilot, none had realized what was happening in the area that day, and upon later discussing it with the president of the rocket club, he simply asked that for future events, the NOTAMS be placed in more reasonable LOCAL NOTAMS attached to all local airports so that it is more readily available.

As far as how close you estimate (from how far away?) he came to the round, I can't say. Nor could I estimate the distance from the engine sound - though I should add that his engine is quite powerful and loud (w/ non-muffled straight pipes pointed backward toward your toy's microphone as he flew away), and the wind-noise as you mention, seems to not be as pronounced and difficult for a mic to detect as, say "DOOR!" noise. As far as what the FAA "agreed" to when viewing the video, I cannot speculate. I can say, however, knowing the terrain from the air as I do personally, the missile certainly drifted a long way, well into the boundary of the Talladega National Forest, so I would speculate a pretty good distance from origin. I would question (don't bother to answer) exactly how far the original buried NOTAM extended in radius, and was his encounter within that radius or without (again, don't really want an answer)?

By the way, he flies his own little rocket that I know personally can be heard from a long way off, both going and coming, and I am puzzled as to just how well the airspace was checked clear prior to launch from that wide open space.

I would think that with his being a 30+ year current skydiver and a 30+ year professional pilot, and to have survived this long, perhaps his determination of safety-in-flight issues may trump yours, even taking into account his "curiosity getting the better of him."

To reiterate, NOTAMS were in fact checked by many people that day, and no one could be found who knew of this event, except for you guys.

So to answer your question, he and others checked NOTAMS then, and do now. Whether or not they find your rocket NOTAM is unknown to me.

My question is, are these NOTAMS now more courteously filed for ease of acquisition by those flying from busy GA airports in the vicinity of your launches?

Roll Tide Roll

[JCW1966 0]

All I can tell you is this. We have had US Navy F18's out of Merdian, MS. bzz our heads and knew they were coming. We have been notified of such things on the field by cel phone from the FAA. But don't think they're going to call us over a private aircraft because they won't. Their call, not ours.

I can also tell you this, I have personally tried calling the FAA to try to back up our paper work and right of airspace and have found the FAA to be completely so messed up that they couldn't tell me squat which can't be good for pilots regardless of their hours or aircraft they are piloting.

We file the paper work but it doesn't mean it can be found under the necessary circumstances which falls back on the beaucracy in which we had to file it with in the 1st place. We follow their rules. That's all we can do besides a visual check on the airspace around us.

We file our waiver for 1 year. Sunrise to sunset for every weekend for a 1 year period. We then are required to notify the FAA 48 hours and no less then 24 hours before a launch. And then we have to call 1 hour before launch ops begin and then again 1 hour after they have ceased. It's up to them to make that info available, we can't do it.

Any suggestions?

[johndh1 0]

Suggestions? Don't wait on the government to do it correctly for you.

Never, ever, never, nevernevernever.

The military would probably have radar on the jet to detect, and would probably have been in contact with their home base instantly, but GA wouldn't always even have a flightplan or flight following to run interference if possible.

I would get direct dialogue started with the CAP, the Birmingham Aero Club, and every airport within a certain radius of your launch, as well as all EAA groups in the state, if it's nothing more than an e-mail forward (they'll spread the word, trust me), that would be better than any NOTAM, the reason being when there are Poker Runs and (literally) weekly breakfast/lunch events as there are, have them forwarded with reminders of such activity, because this area has a lot of GA events, and distance can be covered pretty quickly, especially if you're in something like Jim Thompson's P51.

It's may seem like overkill to alert like that, but when you consider something the size "of a telephone pole" as was in the video could easily take down any GA plane (or drifting skydiver), and it goes to 12,000ft. in just a few seconds, more is better.

Let's discuss contacts in PMs, subject out of skydiving.

Roll Tide Roll

[pchapman 279]

Regarding the rocket activity:

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We file the paper work [...]
Any suggestions?

This is just like skydiving operations having other pilots flying overhead, oblivious to the skydiving activity. The DZ may be frustrated because they have already done everything correct with the FAA, when it comes to NOTAMs etc. But additional effort is necessary to "get the word out" into the local flying community about the hazard. Send notices out to other airports to put up on their bulletin boards...

[johndh1 0]

I hate to bring this back to the top since it's really not about skydiving, but your post was excellent - jump planes radio jump run and exit, so what a good idea for the Rockettes to carry a radio or two for surrounding frequencies to announce the launch.

Though in this area, there are about 6 dropzones within radio range on the same frequency too, so the announcer needs to be somewhat aviation familiar - because of the added lingo, locations, etc., to avoid confusion.

Still, that is a great idea - Thanks.

Roll Tide Roll

[CSpenceFLY 1]

I think one thing being misunderstood here is that a NOTAM does not keep anyone from using that airspace.

[johndh1 0]

You're right, it's just like skydiving drops - it's best that all are as aware and alert as possible of the situation to prevent high-rate perpendicular encounters, because one doesn't necessarily stop the other from occupying the same spot.

The difference with the rocket/plane scenario and skydiver/plane is that it is fast from below, so no evasive action could take place in that by either party, only one is manned (except in my youtube video), and as I understand from skydiver/aircraft collision, the tin-can usually loses.

Many more people know about the rockets now than before, which is a good thing for sure.

I personally think the size, speed, location and altitude possibility (last I checked, the waiver was to 17,000ft) are chilling, but that's liberty I guess.

Roll Tide Roll

[JCW1966 0]

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I think one thing being misunderstood here is that a NOTAM does not keep anyone from using that airspace.

You're exactly right the NOTAM is just to let pilots know what is going on. That's why they should check them.

If we see an aircraft coming into our airspace that aircraft has the right of way and we do not launch anything until the aircraft has left our airspace.

Now once we launch a rocket we have no control over it(guidance systems are illegal) and any aircraft that flies into our airspace needs to steer clear of it, not towards it. Again this goes back to check the NOTAMS to see what, if anything, is going on.