kallend 2,146 #26 December 21, 2004 Quote But as you well know Doc... I think this reply was meant for someone else...... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #27 December 21, 2004 Quote. If someone screws up badly and does not analyze why - just saying "I will never do it again" is not good enough... Quote Agree 100%! I'm saying that if you told ME it would never happen again...I would EXPECT you would, as a part of the reason for honestly making that statement... take appropriate measures to see that it doesn't... If that means changing the procedure, or getting better rest at night...learning the proper way...whatever...then 'just do it'. You misunderstand my comment. Merely 'telling' me it won't happen again works once...repeat the action...you're telling me you don't keep your word. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #28 December 21, 2004 QuoteQuote But as you well know Doc... I think this reply was meant for someone else... Quote Sorry Doc... I fucked up....it'll never happen AGAIN! (I even fixed my fuck-up) ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Erroll 80 #29 December 23, 2004 Quote The only thing that the instructors (other then tandems) and coaches are responsible for is providing accurate information. Exactly my point. I was simply questioning whether all instructors do this? Below are qoutes from the Downwind landing thread:- QuoteI was never taught how to PLF. (It wasn't even mentioned!) QuoteI am not happy with the fact that my school is only concerned with teaching FF skills and they don't even mention the landing or canopy skills. How can one expect a student to ask questions about something he does not even know exists? From the same thread:- QuoteYour instructors should also care enough to ensure that you have learned these basic skills … including how to perform a PLF. (emphasis mine) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #30 December 23, 2004 Just because the student says it wasn't taught something doesn't meant it wasn't taught. I have taught people things that they promptly forget. Also people often forget things when they are under high stress. That is the risk they accept. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #31 December 23, 2004 QuoteJust because the student says it wasn't taught something doesn't meant it wasn't taught. I have taught people things that they promptly forget. Also people often forget things when they are under high stress. That is the risk they accept. As a student, I've always felt it was my responsibility to seek out the information from multiple sources. For a few reasons: 1) My instructors may or may not mention something before I need to know it (trying to avoid information overload, just didn't come up, forgot, etc.... we're all human). 2) Reinforcement helps me learn. I can hear something and it goes in one ear and out the other. But if I see it, I retain it more. If I read about it, I retain it more. 3) By asking questions I help my instructors tailor the program to my needs. What someone else "gets" right away may take me twice as long. They don't necessarily know that unless I take the responsibility to ask. I've read the entire SIM once already, and in between each jump I will read not only the section for my upcoming jumps, but I will also reread the previous sections. That practice has led me to come into the DZ and ask questions of my instructors on stuff we already covered. Basic stuff that I was supposed to "know" already because, well, it was covered. There's a *lot* of new information to process and it's going to get fully processed gradually and the lightbulb goes off at different times. The more I can help that process along, the better. The only time it would even occur to me to "blame" anyone else is if someone in a position of trust (my instructor or the DZO, for example) deliberately gave me false information early on in my training and presented it as the truth. I can't imagine anyone doing that, of course, so I accept full responsibility for doing my part to learn and retain the information presented to me. That said, as a paying customer of the training program, I do expect to get something for my money, and I expect my instructors to do their best to help me learn, using techinques they've developed through their own training and experience. But if my expectations as a customer aren't met, I need to do something about it - talk to the instructor, talk to the DZO, take my business elsewhere, whatever. If I haven't done any of those things, I can't turn around and "blame" someone else if things go wrong. I can't really turn around and blame them, anyway. All of that said, it does "take a village" to raise a skydiver and I've been really impressed by the commitment (almost an expectation) to giving back that experienced jumpers have. I know I have asked and will continue to ask a million questions and I'm happy to know that there's a lot of people out there (besides those who are paid to teach me) who are eager to help. But I'm not gonna blame them when things go wrong."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #32 December 23, 2004 Quote By asking questions I help my instructors tailor the program to my needs. What someone else "gets" right away may take me twice as long. They don't necessarily know that unless I take the responsibility to ask. Quote "I take the responsibility...." Keep it up! You'll be good! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #33 December 24, 2004 QuoteJust because the student says it wasn't taught something doesn't meant it wasn't taught. I have taught people things that they promptly forget. Also people often forget things when they are under high stress. That is the risk they accept. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The only way to ensure that key points are remembered is present them repeatedly, in a variety of different ways (taste, touch, smell, etc.), have students practice, then question them until they repeat a string of correct answers. Written exams also help reinforce key points. Then key points should be repeated during subsequent jumps. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #34 December 24, 2004 >The only way to ensure that key points are remembered is present >them repeatedly, in a variety of different ways (taste, touch, smell, etc.), > have students practice, then question them until they repeat a string of > correct answers. Yep. A few other things: -Train the thing you _want_ them to do just before the jump., Do odd, unusual situations (bailouts, landing in water etc) early on, then do more likely problems (lineovers, emergency procedures) around the middle of the day. The last walkthroughs should always be of exactly what you want to see in the air - a good skydive with a normal opening. That way you avoid the problem of a student who cuts away from a good canopy because emergency procedures have been beaten into his head for too long. -If they screw up on the ground and you don't correct it they _will_ do it in the air. Break them of bad habits early, even if it seems silly. -When you ask them about emergency procedures, exits etc always have them show you, not just tell you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
