Blame Culture

[CornishChris 5]

Just got in to work and checked the boards. The post re: the incident in Denmark got me thinking about how much of a blame culture we operate in. People on there are so quick to throw blame around, as they are with many incidents (not necessarily actual examples):

It's the coaches Fault
It's the person who sold him the canopy
Its the DZO for letting him jump like this
Its his friends for doing this jump with him instead of walking away.
It's anyone but me
Its anything but the fact that skydiving is dangerous

Why are we so obsessed with blame? Is it that the general skydiver just refuses to believe that we play in a fucking dangerous world and tries to hide this by pinning responsibility on an individual when actually accidents are always going to happen.

I have always hated blame. I used to work with someone who, whenever anything went wrong (and this was live TV so things went wrong regularly), would just sit around shouting about who was to blame, not looking forward and saying: how can we sort this problem out to get things moving. Yes we need to analyse accidents and learn from them but surely there is a better way to do this than to sklap a big "BLAME" sticker on someone then sit back with a smug grin and go on doing what we do. Stop blaming coaches for accidents that happen to jumpers with 100 jumps who should know better. Start building an atmosphere of support and learning from an incident not blame. And when accidents do happen don't reach immediately for the tar and feathers, surely these people have got enough to deal with. No one wants to die.

Thoughts?

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[Hooknswoop 19]

No Responsibility Culture.

It’s not my fault.
It was the wind.
It was the turbulence.
Someone cut me off.
I didn’t know.

Generally there is someone at fault and rarely does that person take responsibility for being at fault. Accepting that you screwed up is important is not screwing up again. I told Kelli, “If I do something wrong, and you don’t tell me you don’t like it, I’ll do it again.”

Had an incident recently where someone took an order, wrote down the number correctly (540), then transposed the number when she told someone else that was taking care of it (450). When the customer came back, scratching their head (literally) and asked how much they received, she looked at her notes and read back 540. At that point, I spoke up (not having been around for the initial order) and said, “wait a second, did they change their order, because you told him 450?” I went and confirmed the order had not been changed and 450 had been delivered. So I told her you just told the customer he got 540 and she immediately, without hesitation or thought said, “No I didn’t.” I picked up the clipboard and showed her the 540 and she just stared at me, pissed off. Then I had to go take care of the short 90.

She wouldn’t even consider that she made a mistake and then was very pissed off when she was forced to admit that she did.

Ever sit in a courtroom listening to people’s excuses why they were speeding? It is never their fault.

I heard one where the lady said there was something wrong with her tire and she thought it might blow up at any time, so she was hurrying to the exit ramp to get home and let her husband take care of it. The judge let her tell her story then said, “Let me get this straight, you thought your tire may blow up, so you drove faster? Do you realize that at the speed your were traveling, a blown tire could have caused you to lose control and if you thought you had a problem with your tire your shouldn’t have been driving it or at the very least, not driving it fast?”

People should be held accountable for their actions. In skydiving, jumpers tend to let things slide until there is a problem. Then it is too late.

Did you read about San Marco's King Air? Lost an engine and crashed, which is odd enough, but the engine that caught fire was 2,000 hours past a 3,600 hour TBO. The engine had 5,600 hours on it without being overhauled. They just ran it till it quit. Oh ya, they couldn't put the fire out becuase the HALON bottles were empty.......

Derek

[CornishChris 5]

I agree that people should absolutel take responsibility for their actions. Is it the responsibility of a coach, however, who has taught his AFF students not to do hook turns when 80 jumps after they finish AFF they do a hook turn. There are similar discussions going on on the BASE board, should mentors be responsible for the actions of their students and when does this responsiobility stop.

What I am getting at is that whilst it is important for us to cultivate a culture of responsibility it is also important to stop mud slinging after incidents. There is little to be gained from quickly apportioning blame other than self satisfaction.

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[Hooknswoop 19]

I agree, there is a middle ground.

Derek

[airtwardo 7]

I for one have a lot more respect for someone
that after making a mistake simply says~

"I fucked up...it will never happen again!"

Than the person that has endless excuses and
reasons to blame other for their screw ups.

~ You carry your OWN water!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[tdog 0]

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I for one have a lot more respect for someone
that after making a mistake simply says~

"I fucked up...it will never happen again!"

Than the person that has endless excuses and
reasons to blame other for their screw ups.

~ You carry your OWN water!

Our company has a few hundred employees, so I am used to people screwing up. I like neither response above - but I do like, "I screwed up BECAUSE I did this, this, and this. If I learn to do this, I will fix the problem."

But, I agree in concept, no excuses.

[bob.dino 1]

I did a stupid downwinder a couple of weeks ago and was lucky not to hurt myself. If you asked me 30 seconds afterwards why I did it, I'd have had loads of excuses for ya. It took the two minute walk back to the buildings for me to admit to myself that I simply fucked up. It's hard sometimes to admit that you've been a fucking idiot.

I don't pretend to understand why we as a species immediately try to avoid blame for our actions. Anyone got some insight?

[beowulf 1]

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I agree that people should absolutel take responsibility for their actions. Is it the responsibility of a coach, however, who has taught his AFF students not to do hook turns when 80 jumps after they finish AFF they do a hook turn. There are similar discussions going on on the BASE board, should mentors be responsible for the actions of their students and when does this responsiobility stop.

What I am getting at is that whilst it is important for us to cultivate a culture of responsibility it is also important to stop mud slinging after incidents. There is little to be gained from quickly apportioning blame other than self satisfaction.

I feel it is the responsibility of each person to make sure they are fully educated on skydiving and all the risks that it entails. If they don't take the time and effort to inform themselves then tough luck. Ignorance is no excuse. There are plenty of people and sources to get the latest information. All it takes is effort. It is the students responsibility to themselves to make sure that all their questions are answered. Instructors and coaches can only do so much. Everyone that jumps automatically assumes that they have enough knowledge to deal with all and any problems that come during that jump. When you are rushing towards mother earth at high speeds and something goes wrong 'I don't know' or 'I am not sure' just doesn't cut it. If you are not doing a tandem then ignorance is no excuse. I accept the possibility that I may or will die skydiving and guess what even if I made a mistake due to ignorance it is still my fault for choosing to skydive, just as it is for everyone that skydives, whether they acknowledge it or not.

[nathaniel 0]

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I don't pretend to understand why we as a species immediately try to avoid blame for our actions. Anyone got some insight?

I'm inclined to think it's more of a culture thing than a species thing. Witness: other societies have lived for centuries without tort reform.

To hazard a guess, I'd offer egalitarianism run amok, and/ or a failure to grasp elementary probability theory. "I'm a normal person, why haven't all these other normal persons suffered my ill fate?"

nathaniel

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[Scrumpot 1]

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I don't pretend to understand why we as a species immediately try to avoid blame for our actions. Anyone got some insight?

I too think that this is more of a "NURTURE" thing, than a "NATURE" one. I, for one am one to sometimes absorb actually too much blame. One time, during a regional big-ways try-out/recruitment event during a video debrief where a funnel had occured on my side of the formation, no matter how much they tried; rewinding, slow motion, forward, backward, etc. the organizers just could not tell definitively what had happened. I went ahead and piped up that I thought I could have done a better job & maybe I had contributed. I was definitely not alone, but I was the only one who piped up. I was also immediately the only one who was CUT! ...I've since learned not to necessarily be quite so "volunteering" with my acceptance or the self-assignment of blame.

-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[FrogNog 1]

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If you asked me 30 seconds afterwards why I did it, I'd have had loads of excuses for ya. It took the two minute walk back to the buildings for me to admit to myself that I simply fucked up. It's hard sometimes to admit that you've been a fucking idiot.

Yeah, I hear that. It took me 3 hours of doing nothing but thinking about it (and driving) to get to about the 60% acceptance/admission/learning point with both pieces of my left fibula. Another 30% in the cast, and another 10% in physical therapy.

I think survival instincts immediately after a hairy situation put us on the defensive.

Look at the bright side, two minutes (or even three hours) isn't all that long in the big schema of things to come to admission.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[Erroll 80]

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Ignorance is no excuse. There are plenty of people and sources to get the latest information. All it takes is effort. It is the students responsibility to themselves to make sure that all their questions are answered. Instructors and coaches can only do so much.

While I agree in principle, I believe one should draw a clear distinction between a student and the guy with 100 jumps. The student frequently doesn't even know what question to ask, let alone who to ask and how to evaluate the answer. Ignorance means that one doesn't know. It does not mean one does not want to know, nor does it mean one is unwilling to learn.

I sometimes wonder if all the instructors and coaches out there realise the huge responsibility they have.

[mjosparky 4]

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I'm inclined to think it's more of a culture thing than a species thing. Witness: other societies have lived for centuries without tort reform.

I would agree with this. We have a whole generation or two who have never been held accountable for their actions since birth. Why should it change when they take up skydiving. They get caught with their hand in the cookie jar and the way they tell it they were attacked by the cookie jar and demand compensation for pain and suffering.

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Witness: other societies have lived for centuries without tort reform.

Are they the same societies that have gone centuries with out benefit of indoor plumbing?

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[billvon 3,107]

>I don't pretend to understand why we as a species immediately try
>to avoid blame for our actions. Anyone got some insight?

Well:

1. We stopped evolving when we started protecting our weakest members (i.e. we developed societies.) Complex societal behaviors like assignment of blame came after that, I think.

2. People at fault are often penalized either directly or indirectly, no matter what the society. Being able to pin the fault on someone else can be a survival mechanism. If you can really convince people you didn't eat all the millet, or let the sheep run away, or kill your wife, you tend to do better in most societies (i.e. you're not punished, jailed or executed.) So we have some innate tendency to be good at it - or, more accurately, people who tend to _not_ be able to deflect blame don't get as much of a chance to reproduce and aren't emulated.

[murps2000 86]

>I don't pretend to understand why we as a species immediately try
>to avoid blame for our actions. Anyone got some insight?

Well:

1. We stopped evolving when we started protecting our weakest members (i.e. we developed societies.) Complex societal behaviors like assignment of blame came after that, I think.

2. People at fault are often penalized either directly or indirectly, no matter what the society. Being able to pin the fault on someone else can be a survival mechanism. If you can really convince people you didn't eat all the millet, or let the sheep run away, or kill your wife, you tend to do better in most societies (i.e. you're not punished, jailed or executed.) So we have some innate tendency to be good at it - or, more accurately, people who tend to _not_ be able to deflect blame don't get as much of a chance to reproduce and aren't emulated. ***


I cannot recall an instant in which I've ever seen a nail more accurately hit on the head. Society is to blame for blame, and only the blameless survive. Perfect.

[beowulf 1]

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Ignorance is no excuse. There are plenty of people and sources to get the latest information. All it takes is effort. It is the students responsibility to themselves to make sure that all their questions are answered. Instructors and coaches can only do so much.

While I agree in principle, I believe one should draw a clear distinction between a student and the guy with 100 jumps. The student frequently doesn't even know what question to ask, let alone who to ask and how to evaluate the answer. Ignorance means that one doesn't know. It does not mean one does not want to know, nor does it mean one is unwilling to learn.

I sometimes wonder if all the instructors and coaches out there realise the huge responsibility they have.

This is an adult sport. These students are adults and are still responsible for paying attention and following all instructions. The only thing that the instructors (other then tandems) and coaches are responsible for is providing accurate information. The student can ignore instructions if they so want to. Is the instructor responsible for that? No, Hell NO. Bottom line if the student doesn't take responsibility for themselves and make sure that all their questions are answered, then shit happens. If they don't want to get hurt or die skydiving then don't skydive. It must be made clear to all students that they are taking their lives in their own hands when they choose to skydive. They need to make sure that have been listening and understand what the instructors and coaches have been trying to teach. The only person that is responsible for their life on a skydive is themselves. This excludes tandem passengers. No one will be with them to tell them what to do when something goes wrong. During AFF the instructors will do their best to be there with them to make sure they fall stable and pull at the correct altitude. But if the student panics and is flailing out of control the only thing the instructor can do is try as hard as he/she can till their hard deck to get that person under control or pull their main parachute. Still every jumper is ultimately responsible for their own life. No one is forcing anyone to jump. If the student can't deal with the risk then they should go home and watch TV or what ever.

[Squeak 17]

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Well:

1. We stopped evolving when we started protecting our weakest members (i.e. we developed societies.) Complex societal behaviors like assignment of blame came after that, I think.

We slowed our evolution when we started changing our environment to suit us, instead of adapting to it.

Moreover not ALL societies & cultures have a blame mentality, unfortunately it appears our western cultures do.

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Airtwardo
"I fucked up...it will never happen again!"

I would prefer a more honest
"I fucked and and I'll try to improve, can you (or someone show me how)"
I would not expect ANYONE to behold to "Never happen again"

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[airtwardo 7]

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"I screwed up BECAUSE I did this, this, and this. If I learn to do this, I will fix the problem."

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Same thing...mine ways the non-PC
'short version'



And you are referring to a work situation where it
might be that the person in error needs to learn
'such and such...'

I was referring to skydivers that KNOW better
but because of lack of attention...or stupidity on
their part, screw up and blame everyone and everything
but themselves.

We ALL make mistakes...
Call 'em what they are...and fix the problem, don't
continue making the same ones because you are
in denial and push responsibility off in another direction.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[billvon 3,107]

>We slowed our evolution when we started changing our environment
>to suit us, instead of adapting to it.

Agreed. I should have said "we stopped evolving based purely on physical attributes." After society began, other features (like intelligence, ability to interact with others, ability to control impulses) began to dominate the process of natural selection - although serious physical drawbacks (like being born without a head) still get evolved out.

>Moreover not ALL societies & cultures have a blame mentality,
>unfortunately it appears our western cultures do.

I think there are some complex behaviors based on emotion present in all societies - blame, greed, envy, pride etc. They drove the development of capitalism, patriotism, law, and a lot of other principles central to many societies. Since each society is different, each society expresses those things differently. Here in the west, we seem to be very into greed (capitalism) and blame (litigation, lawsuits.) Other areas/countries are very into extensive and strict law (totalitarianism.)

[Byron03 0]

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Bottom line if the student doesn't take responsibility for themselves and make sure that all their questions are answered, then shit happens. If they don't want to get hurt or die skydiving then don't skydive. It must be made clear to all students that they are taking their lives in their own hands when they choose to skydive. They need to make sure that have been listening and understand what the instructors and coaches have been trying to teach. The only person that is responsible for their life on a skydive is themselves.
.
.
.
No one is forcing anyone to jump.

(Bold added)

These were concepts that were bought up during my 1st jump class. Then I was told this again, later on that day. Again, the next day when I was getting ready to jump. Again when my instructors and I were going over the dive on the way to altitude. Again when we were reviewing the basics and going over the dive plan for the 2nd jump...

I think these are good things to teach students, and remind them again and again. It may seem redundant, it may seem like we're trying to scare students, it may seem like we're dwelling on a morbid subject, but when you are a student you need these verbal reminders.

Everybody that skydives will eventually see friends hurt, hear about people dying, hear all kinds of 'No shit there I was, thought I was going to die...' stories. And when I hear these things, I am reminded the most basic thing that I was taught in my 1st jump course: skydiving is dangerous.



I don't remember when it was posted here (probably in 'History and Trivia'), but I remember reading:
"People used to think that once you left the plane you were dead, unless you do something about it. Nowadays people think: when you leave the plane you'll be fine...unless you do something about it."


It's a good thing that for the most part skydiving is worth it!

[tdog 0]

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And you are referring to a work situation where it might be that the person in error needs to learn 'such and such...'

In one of my lines of work, the work we do is just as dangerous as skydiving if done wrong, and the skills required are just as hard to learn... I know, because I came 2" from killing my best friend when I pushed the wrong hydraulic lever on a staging system and broke a piece of plate steel causing 1000 pounds of metal to land in my friend's shadow. It touched him as it passed. I see no difference in skydiving... If someone screws up badly and does not analyze why - just saying "I will never do it again" is not good enough... Do you think my friend would have trusted me again if I did not rewrite the procedures our company used to prevent the same mistake twice??? Do you think the manufacture would have allowed me to keep my certification, if I did not help them rewrite the manual and redesign the system that failed?

Just my two cents... It scares me whenever I see someone screw up and not take immediate actions to prevent it in the future other than saying, “Sorry, my bad, never again.” We are on the same page I think - no need to debate much...

[Fast 0]

I think in some cases even people are quick to jump on a person about making excuses when they are talking about some fuck up. It causes them to shut up and just think them. Even if the person then says "I fucked up, wont happen again" they are most likely still making the excuses to themself.

I think too often a person either is said to be making excuses when they are trying to think something out and figure out how they fucked up, or they are not trying to learn from thier mistake. Both are correctable.

Just saying "Opps, wont happen again" doesn't do a whole lot of good for me. If the people who are in a position to offer constructive help on why a person fucked up just figure the offending person is making an excuse and don't really care about what they did that sucks. I agree sometimes people are trying to make excuses, but the point is that I think too often a newbie trying to figure out a fuckup is cast off as making excuses rather than given the help they need to understand exactly how and why they fucked up.

Education doesn't come from a person shutting up and saying it won't happen again. It comes from analyzing the issue and trying to figure out the reasons that a chain of events occured and how to prevent it from happening again in the future.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[kallend 2,146]

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Well:

1. We stopped evolving when we started protecting our weakest members (i.e. we developed societies.) Complex societal behaviors like assignment of blame came after that, I think.

We slowed our evolution when we started changing our environment to suit us, instead of adapting to it.

Moreover not ALL societies & cultures have a blame mentality, unfortunately it appears our western cultures do.

Quote

Airtwardo
"I fucked up...it will never happen again!"

I would prefer a more honest
"I fucked and and I'll try to improve, can you (or someone show me how)"
I would not expect ANYONE to behold to "Never happen again"

I'm sure that contemporary evolutionary psychologists will tell you that altruistic and co-operative behaviors confer evolutionary advantage on ones genes, even if not on any specific individual possessing those genes.

It's the genes that compete for immortality.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[dorbie 0]

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>I don't pretend to understand why we as a species immediately try
>to avoid blame for our actions. Anyone got some insight?

Well:

1. We stopped evolving when we started protecting our weakest members (i.e. we developed societies.) Complex societal behaviors like assignment of blame came after that, I think.

2. People at fault are often penalized either directly or indirectly, no matter what the society. Being able to pin the fault on someone else can be a survival mechanism. If you can really convince people you didn't eat all the millet, or let the sheep run away, or kill your wife, you tend to do better in most societies (i.e. you're not punished, jailed or executed.) So we have some innate tendency to be good at it - or, more accurately, people who tend to _not_ be able to deflect blame don't get as much of a chance to reproduce and aren't emulated.

We're still evolving, we just changed the selection criteria. Your second part is a case in point.

[airtwardo 7]

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In Reply To
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Airtwardo
"I fucked up...it will never happen again!"

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I would prefer a more honest
"I fucked and and I'll try to improve, can you (or someone show me how)"


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But as you well know Squeak...

Allow for the 'possibility' of failure and
it will surely occur.

By saying 'NEVER' happen again....
you obviously remove all chance it will!

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and I'll try to improve,

The 'try' worries be a bit...

'Trying' don't feed the Bulldog.

Results merit, not intentions.

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I would not expect ANYONE to behold to
"Never happen again"

And you'll 'never' be disappointed...
But people seem to rise to the level
of expectations placed on them...

In business, the employee that
gives me their word...
it won't happen again,
seems to take the extra measures to
insure that is doesn't.

I don't have time to listen to;
"I'll try...
if it's convenient and doesn't put me out..."


Kind of relates to the title of the thread,
and taking responsibility for past, present
and future action.


***

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~