mjosparky 4 #26 December 20, 2004 Quote>can you safely plf a down wind landing with significant forward motion? Yes. I think lots of people are butt sliding now because they weren't taught how to PLF. I've PLFed my way out of all kinds of scary situations and stupid mistakes, including once off of a motorcycle. It takes some practice to get comfortable with the technique. If you get a military jumper or an old timer to show you how, and then practice a few minutes a day until you have accumulated several hours worth of practice, you'll have it when you need it. And if you keep jumping you'll probably need it sooner or later. Skr What he said just might be worth listening to. Skratch has been at this awhile. There is a reason some of the more mature jumpers survived all these years jumping everything from C-9 7TU to todays pocket rockets. No matter how bad the landing is, a good PLF will improve your chances of walking away. Its just simple physics, you spread the energy over more surface area and over a longer period of time. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JeepDiver 0 #27 December 20, 2004 My first landing as a Tandem student was sliding in. It "seemed" an all right method then. I want to thank everyone for bringing to my attention the fact that if done improperly a sliding landing can result in serious injury and should not be attempted when a more proven method "PLF" should be used. What I had asked my instructor after seeing that landing was why did it happen? There were a number of reasons discussed but I won't get into that. I will however mention that as I stated the field was freshly plowed, however it was a very large field, my instructor said there was plenty of room along with AGL to allow for an approach and a proper turn. It would have been an "out" landing though. What I've been using is, I noticed that at my DZ there is a flagpole with a huge US flag, it's much easier to see from up high than the wind socks and allows me to fly under canopy until it's time to make my approach to the LZ where I can then use the wind socks as a better reference. I've been using both at the same time, one is just easier to spot when I'm high. I was also told it's better to land out safely than to attempt to reach the LZ when it's unreachable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #28 December 20, 2004 QuoteI was also told it's better to land out safely than to attempt to reach the LZ when it's unreachable. You were told right.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #29 December 20, 2004 QuoteBTW: Hopefully I didn't give the impression that I had to land that way every time! Actually, that was the impression I had, and thus my response. Glad to see that it looks like we're all operating at least on the same premise(s) now! coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Freeflysmiley 2 #30 December 21, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuote So, don't slide on your butt. You shouldn't need to slide at all. But if anything slide on one thigh and cheek. If you're gonna slide it in, I can't think of any reason you wouldn't be better off rolling over to one cheek. Esp on grass, it's pretty soft if the speed is mostly horizonal. Ummh, I'm a newbie jumper, but I know a fair bit about anatomy and there would be much less lower spine trauma sliding on one side (i.e one cheek and leg) then just butt sliding-------------------------------------------------- Practise the 6 P's! -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scrumpot 1 #31 December 21, 2004 Again, I am observing a situation here, and shaking my head in utter disbelief where SEVERAL VERY EXPERIENCED jumpers (2 with OVER 25yrs in this sport A PIECE ...not "combined", but EACH, and THOUSANDS of jumps & all the related jump EXPERIENCE that goes -unavoidably- along with that) have given their input, and stated, I thought, QUITE CLEARLY ...that PLF's if taken the time to be LEARNED (not "short-cutted") and done CORRECTLY, are THE way to go. Ram-air, high-speed, up-wind, down-wind, ...IN THEIR EXPERIENCE, what-have you. Yet we still see, 2 sub-100 jump wonders continuing to debate the nuances, and intricacies of something they clearly (in the actual setting ...not just "clinically") DON'T KNOW SQUAT ABOUT, PERPETUATING their self generated FALACIES (ooh ...lets forget about what Skratch Garrison has to say, or Michael Owens, or others with 1,000's upon 1,000's of jumps, and literally DECADES of EXPERIENCE... that's right, let's just IGNORE them, and continue on with our butt-slide babble ...because between us with this babble we'll figure this one out better than they ever could for sure! ). ....DOH! As far as I'm concerned, this thread ended, (or SHOULD HAVE) with post #25 right HERE! It just amazes me. We all (supposedly) WANT, and look to the input of these MASTERS. Yet when we actually get it, we eschew it???? This makes absolutely no sense to me. You will all wonder one day why people like this suddenly just decide to stop posting as a result all together. I certainly wouldn't blame them, although I for one, hope that day doesn't come very soon. That, would be a day we should then all feel sorry and ASHAMED for sure. JMO.coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Fast 0 #32 December 21, 2004 QuoteIt just amazes me. We all (supposedly) WANT, and look to the input of these MASTERS. Yet when we actually get it, we eschew it???? This makes absolutely no sense to me. You will all wonder one day why people like this suddenly just decide to stop posting as a result all together. I certainly wouldn't blame them, although I for one, hope that day doesn't come very soon. That, would be a day we should then all feel sorry and ASHAMED for sure. JMO. I think it has a lot to do with how the human mind works. People want to feel like they are a part of a discussion and feel that the things they are thinking matter in that discussion. That leads people to post counter points, supporting points, and total nonsense.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #33 December 21, 2004 Quote I think it has a lot to do with how the human mind works. People want to feel like they are a part of a discussion and feel that the things they are thinking matter in that discussion. That leads people to post counter points, supporting points, and total nonsense. The problem is language and a lack of clarity. Because these conversations aren't real time, this problem is magnified. If something a master doesn't sound right, I'm certainly going to try to see why before I accept it on face value. And if I write unclearly, as I did above, it'll muddle things. Shit happens. If a master's ego can't handle being hurt over a misunderstanding (or his being wrong), he can get the fuck out of Safety and Training. RATHER THAN WORRY ABOUT BEING RIGHT ALL THE TIME, why not try to work out it out? What happened to- there are no stupid questions? I've not done any bad downwind landings, but lots where I planed out with a lot of speed and didn't complete the flare to a standstill. Not flying the canopy as long as possible. I think that's worked out, but that's besides the point for today. I've landed this situation with a forward PLF and as a slide. The forward PLF can be quite a tumble with some minor aches. The slide, otoh, feels pretty good, esp on grass. Touch down with the foot, then the lower leg, then upper leg and cheek on one side. This protects the tailbone, does get dirt or grass stains on the leg strap. Downsides to slides - if the vertical speed is there, you're gonna thump hard. PLF is best for absorbing it. If your foot sticks in the dirt, you're going to put a lot of force on the lower leg. Like glissading wearing crampons. So when a master says the PLF is always better than a slide, is that to protect newbies from inproper slides, or is it actually true? Or does the answer depend on the surface - many of the LZs in California have a nice small grass main field (with an asphalt runways for standing slides for swoopers, and a large but unkempt field for the sub Bs. Feel free to call me a punk, just try to answer to the topic while you're at it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jeth 0 #34 December 22, 2004 Quote>can you safely plf a down wind landing with significant forward motion? Yes. I think lots of people are butt sliding now because they weren't taught how to PLF. Skr Yes, Yes!! I was never taught how to PLF. (It wasn't even mentioned!) Also, it didn't come naturally to me as it did for others. So I always butt-slid my landings. But then on #10, I was coming in very fast and hard. I knew I didn't want to land on my butt at that speed, but I didn't know what to do. I was having an "oh shit moment". I basically did a face-plant, with my legs twisted around. That resulted in an injury to my MCL which has kept me grounded for 3 months. I have now made it my mission to learn the PLF and practice, practice, practice so it becomes second nature. I am not happy with the fact that my school is only concerned with teaching FF skills and they don't even mention the landing or canopy skills. But it is my responsibility to keep myself from getting injured again so I will learn it myself. (With help from my friends. It makes sense that it would help when you flare high and drop down. But I am still concerned how to do it when I am coming in fast again (fast forward speed). People have told me they have PLF'd many different bad landings and walked away so I hope I can learn how. My two cents... "At 13,000 feet nothing else matters." PFRX!!!!! Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109 My Jump Site Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chrisgr 0 #35 December 22, 2004 Beth, Sorry to hear about your injury. Hope you are healing nicely. You are aware of your personal responsibility to safely fly and land your canopy. Your instructors should also care enough to ensure that you have learned these basic skills … including how to perform a PLF. Life is full of opportunities… http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1327077#1327077 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites veter_ 0 #36 December 23, 2004 Everybody is talking about PLF. "Learn PLF". But nobody is explaining HOW. Is it a secret? Anyone brave here to raise the hand? How to do high horizontal speed PLF properly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skr 1 #37 December 23, 2004 >I have now made it my mission to learn the PLF and >practice, practice, practice so it becomes second nature. That's the spirit! :-) And if *you* do it maybe a few of your peers will too. Lot's of people will follow if only someone will lead. >I am not happy with the fact that my school is only >concerned with teaching FF skills and they don't even >mention the landing or canopy skills. Eeeee .. The Disneyland-ification of skydiving .. Well, it's too big a soapbox to fit in one of these little reply windows, but .. Some systematic effort to learn canopy skills is a really good idea too, both aspects, the toggle techniques that make your canopy do things, and the large scale strategic thinking skills about what to do between opening and entering the pattern, managing traffic and so on. There's been tons of stuff written here by Billvon and others. I put a thing over at http://indra.net/~bdaniels/ftw/c_wings_level.html There are canopy schools springing up. >But it is my >responsibility to keep myself from getting injured again >so I will learn it myself. (With help from my friends.) Yes, a few experienced friends is a good path. Also keep some perspective. Learning to fly today's canopies is a long journey. It takes a season or two just to make your way through the foundation stuff. Skr Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skr 1 #38 December 23, 2004 >Everybody is talking about PLF. "Learn PLF". >But nobody is explaining HOW. >Is it a secret? :-) :-) Apparently it's becoming so in the jump world. The general idea, feet and knees together, breakables pulled in, round off the corners, twist into the roll and make it happen the way you want, has been around for thousands of years, in other activities. But the easiest "HOW" is to get a military jumper or an old timer to show you, and then use a matress or the pea gravel or something soft to practice on, and practice. Skr Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BIGUN 1,424 #39 December 23, 2004 First read this. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=640825;search_string=PLF;#640825 Then go find someone at your DZ whose been to AIrborne School and ask them to follow my outline. I've said it before and I'll say it again....EP's are taught a lot more than PLFs, but you'll use PLF's hundreds more time than you will EP's.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Freeflysmiley 2 #40 December 23, 2004 Yet we still see, 2 sub-100 jump wonders continuing to debate the nuances, and intricacies of something they clearly (in the actual setting ...not just "clinically") DON'T KNOW SQUAT ABOUT, PERPETUATING their self generated FALACIES (ooh ...lets forget about what Skratch Garrison has to say, or Michael Owens, or others with 1,000's upon 1,000's of jumps, and literally DECADES of EXPERIENCE... that's right, let's just IGNORE them, and continue on with our butt-slide babble ...because between us with this babble we'll figure this one out better than they ever could for sure! ). ....DOH! *** I'm not sure if that referred to me, but I didn't make any comments on the rights and wrongs of butt slidings. I've never done one and have no intention of doing one diliberately. All i said in reply to: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So, don't slide on your butt. You shouldn't need to slide at all. But if anything slide on one thigh and cheek. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- reply If you're gonna slide it in, I can't think of any reason you wouldn't be better off rolling over to one cheek. Esp on grass, it's pretty soft if the speed is mostly horizonal. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WAS Ummh, I'm a newbie jumper, but I know a fair bit about anatomy and there would be much less lower spine trauma sliding on one side (i.e one cheek and leg) then just butt sliding . I'm a surgeon so I'd hope my knowledge of anatomy would stand up.I did not advocate any butt sliding for or against. Doh-------------------------------------------------- Practise the 6 P's! -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scrumpot 1 #41 December 23, 2004 Getting a hard-on for me now, eh smiley? I'm flattered. The point was my supreme frustration in apparently several low-timers on this board asking for input and advice. Then when they GET IT, and on top of that from someone as emminently qualified and EXPERIENCED as Skratch Garrison, they don't take it! Nothing specifically intended or singled out towards you. Your insights and opinions are welcome. Didn't mean to "pick on you" specifically. Sorry if it seemed that way. Maybe you can now do the same for/with me & we can move on. I still stand by my assertion that this string could have ended back with post #25 (Skratch's). Looks like it could have even YET AGAIN with his post #38 above, if US (me too ...compared to him) LOWBIES could just "get over ourselves". I'll do that now Smiley, if you will too. How's that? Happy Holidays, and BLUE SKIES, -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jeth 0 #42 December 24, 2004 Quote Some systematic effort to learn canopy skills is a really good idea too, both aspects, the toggle techniques that make your canopy do things, and the large scale strategic thinking skills about what to do between opening and entering the pattern, managing traffic and so on. There's been tons of stuff written here by Billvon and others. I put a thing over at http://indra.net/~bdaniels/ftw/c_wings_level.html There are canopy schools springing up. Skr Yup, I am definitely going to make sure my instructors include the canopy skills that are in the syllabus on all my future plan/debrief's. I will also be taking a canopy course whenever its available after I graduate. Canopy skills are what will allow me to complete my fantastic skydive with a safe landing, to me thats the most important thing! I still have difficulties planning the approach, I can never tell where on the ground I'm gonna end up. *sigh*, I guess it just takes practice. I will look into those other sources of written info. Thanx."At 13,000 feet nothing else matters." PFRX!!!!! Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109 My Jump Site Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BIGUN 1,424 #43 December 24, 2004 QuoteI will look into those other sources of written info Notice in the first one (From the USPA SIM), the arms are in the groin area since that's where they should be when you flare... The other pictures are of military training in which they don't flare since they're jumping rounds. http://www.uspa.org/publications/SIM/2004SIM/images/PLF2.pdf http://www.nomi.med.navy.mil/STD/ASTCPens/PLF.htm http://herbertholeman.com/para/units/plf.htm http://www.tpub.com/content/parachutes/TM-10-1670-213-10/css/TM-10-1670-213-10_28.htmNobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Freeflysmiley 2 #44 December 24, 2004 Being that I like women, I'm afraid not mate! I understand your points.-------------------------------------------------- Practise the 6 P's! -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites udder 0 #45 January 7, 2005 I decided to practice said PLF. About a 5m run up sprinting and jumpin off a 1m step. On grass this was still rather painful, and washing off foward speed was a problem. I rolled pretty hard on my hips and my legs went round into the ground with an almighty thump. Also taught me to keep elbow well tucked in. Seeing as this is only running pace and i could only manage 4 practice downwind plf's, how do you wash off that speed in a 45mph downwind landing? Bill could you elaborate on how you keep your legs out in front of you, when you spoke about the downwind plf? I cant seem to figure this out because I think it would just look like a slide but resting on your side? or have I got it all wrong?"In one way or the other, I'm a bad brother. Word to the motherf**ker." Eazy-E Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #46 January 7, 2005 Quote ...went round into the ground with an almighty thump. Quote They should use THAT wording for incident reports and the like...I love it! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites craig_b 0 #47 January 7, 2005 QuoteIt just amazes me. We all (supposedly) WANT, and look to the input of these MASTERS. Yet when we actually get it, we eschew it???? Once again, being a true newbie here agree completely with this. I had a short but important conversation with my "mentor", one who does have over 2000 jumps, 10 years experience and was the one that I watched that got me interested in this sport. This short conversation revovled around stand-up vs "butt slide". She literally chewed me up. Yes, she will do a slide and said THAT IS COMPLETELY WRONG TO DO and I had better learn PLF and stand up real good. She admitted to her learning errors, passed along her experience and told me to never ever butt slide again. I have not butt slid in since then. I hope this does give the experienced ones here the optimisim that some of us are listening and learning with each word you say. Thank you for ALL the input. _________________________________________ once you've experienced flight, you forever walk the ground with your head pointed skyward. There you've been and there you long to return. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #48 January 7, 2005 QuoteI have not butt slid in since then. I hope this does give the experienced ones here the optimisim that some of us are listening and learning with each word you say I think there are far more new jumper listening then not. Its just that the ones that don't/won't listen seem to draw more attention with their results of blowing off sound advise. But someone once told me that pain is an excellent teacher. The greater the pain, the fewer repetitions are required. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,080 #49 January 8, 2005 > how do you wash off that speed in a 45mph downwind landing? The trick is getting your vertical speed to zero, which is hard to do if you run, jump and try to PLF. >Bill could you elaborate on how you keep your legs out in front of > you, when you spoke about the downwind plf? Basically you want to end up sliding like someone slides into home plate - feet first, feet and knees together, sliding on your thigh. You definitely don't want to slide on your butt with your legs spread! To practice this, wait until it's raining and wear old clothes. Start running on wet grass. Get some speed and then just lay it down - let your CG get behind you so that your feet go in front of you. It's almost like you're trying to kick a soccer ball in front of you in with the bottoms of your feet. If you want to think about it, think about the first three points of contact (your feet, calves and thighs) - but they all happen pretty quickly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites udder 0 #50 January 8, 2005 Cheersfor clearing that up. I got my painting clothes ready for the next rain. Another question, is it better to have the brakes down just below your rib cage for the PLF? Because this leaves your elbows and arms as a point of impact which wouldnt be too fun. On the other hand tucking my arms in leaves the toggles on top of my chest, which doesnt create much of a flare, more a 1/4 to half brake approach. Or should you flare fully and land with your arms in front? Just rolling instead?"In one way or the other, I'm a bad brother. Word to the motherf**ker." Eazy-E Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. 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Scrumpot 1 #31 December 21, 2004 Again, I am observing a situation here, and shaking my head in utter disbelief where SEVERAL VERY EXPERIENCED jumpers (2 with OVER 25yrs in this sport A PIECE ...not "combined", but EACH, and THOUSANDS of jumps & all the related jump EXPERIENCE that goes -unavoidably- along with that) have given their input, and stated, I thought, QUITE CLEARLY ...that PLF's if taken the time to be LEARNED (not "short-cutted") and done CORRECTLY, are THE way to go. Ram-air, high-speed, up-wind, down-wind, ...IN THEIR EXPERIENCE, what-have you. Yet we still see, 2 sub-100 jump wonders continuing to debate the nuances, and intricacies of something they clearly (in the actual setting ...not just "clinically") DON'T KNOW SQUAT ABOUT, PERPETUATING their self generated FALACIES (ooh ...lets forget about what Skratch Garrison has to say, or Michael Owens, or others with 1,000's upon 1,000's of jumps, and literally DECADES of EXPERIENCE... that's right, let's just IGNORE them, and continue on with our butt-slide babble ...because between us with this babble we'll figure this one out better than they ever could for sure! ). ....DOH! As far as I'm concerned, this thread ended, (or SHOULD HAVE) with post #25 right HERE! It just amazes me. We all (supposedly) WANT, and look to the input of these MASTERS. Yet when we actually get it, we eschew it???? This makes absolutely no sense to me. You will all wonder one day why people like this suddenly just decide to stop posting as a result all together. I certainly wouldn't blame them, although I for one, hope that day doesn't come very soon. That, would be a day we should then all feel sorry and ASHAMED for sure. JMO.coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #32 December 21, 2004 QuoteIt just amazes me. We all (supposedly) WANT, and look to the input of these MASTERS. Yet when we actually get it, we eschew it???? This makes absolutely no sense to me. You will all wonder one day why people like this suddenly just decide to stop posting as a result all together. I certainly wouldn't blame them, although I for one, hope that day doesn't come very soon. That, would be a day we should then all feel sorry and ASHAMED for sure. JMO. I think it has a lot to do with how the human mind works. People want to feel like they are a part of a discussion and feel that the things they are thinking matter in that discussion. That leads people to post counter points, supporting points, and total nonsense.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #33 December 21, 2004 Quote I think it has a lot to do with how the human mind works. People want to feel like they are a part of a discussion and feel that the things they are thinking matter in that discussion. That leads people to post counter points, supporting points, and total nonsense. The problem is language and a lack of clarity. Because these conversations aren't real time, this problem is magnified. If something a master doesn't sound right, I'm certainly going to try to see why before I accept it on face value. And if I write unclearly, as I did above, it'll muddle things. Shit happens. If a master's ego can't handle being hurt over a misunderstanding (or his being wrong), he can get the fuck out of Safety and Training. RATHER THAN WORRY ABOUT BEING RIGHT ALL THE TIME, why not try to work out it out? What happened to- there are no stupid questions? I've not done any bad downwind landings, but lots where I planed out with a lot of speed and didn't complete the flare to a standstill. Not flying the canopy as long as possible. I think that's worked out, but that's besides the point for today. I've landed this situation with a forward PLF and as a slide. The forward PLF can be quite a tumble with some minor aches. The slide, otoh, feels pretty good, esp on grass. Touch down with the foot, then the lower leg, then upper leg and cheek on one side. This protects the tailbone, does get dirt or grass stains on the leg strap. Downsides to slides - if the vertical speed is there, you're gonna thump hard. PLF is best for absorbing it. If your foot sticks in the dirt, you're going to put a lot of force on the lower leg. Like glissading wearing crampons. So when a master says the PLF is always better than a slide, is that to protect newbies from inproper slides, or is it actually true? Or does the answer depend on the surface - many of the LZs in California have a nice small grass main field (with an asphalt runways for standing slides for swoopers, and a large but unkempt field for the sub Bs. Feel free to call me a punk, just try to answer to the topic while you're at it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeth 0 #34 December 22, 2004 Quote>can you safely plf a down wind landing with significant forward motion? Yes. I think lots of people are butt sliding now because they weren't taught how to PLF. Skr Yes, Yes!! I was never taught how to PLF. (It wasn't even mentioned!) Also, it didn't come naturally to me as it did for others. So I always butt-slid my landings. But then on #10, I was coming in very fast and hard. I knew I didn't want to land on my butt at that speed, but I didn't know what to do. I was having an "oh shit moment". I basically did a face-plant, with my legs twisted around. That resulted in an injury to my MCL which has kept me grounded for 3 months. I have now made it my mission to learn the PLF and practice, practice, practice so it becomes second nature. I am not happy with the fact that my school is only concerned with teaching FF skills and they don't even mention the landing or canopy skills. But it is my responsibility to keep myself from getting injured again so I will learn it myself. (With help from my friends. It makes sense that it would help when you flare high and drop down. But I am still concerned how to do it when I am coming in fast again (fast forward speed). People have told me they have PLF'd many different bad landings and walked away so I hope I can learn how. My two cents... "At 13,000 feet nothing else matters." PFRX!!!!! Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109 My Jump Site Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrisgr 0 #35 December 22, 2004 Beth, Sorry to hear about your injury. Hope you are healing nicely. You are aware of your personal responsibility to safely fly and land your canopy. Your instructors should also care enough to ensure that you have learned these basic skills … including how to perform a PLF. Life is full of opportunities… http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1327077#1327077 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
veter_ 0 #36 December 23, 2004 Everybody is talking about PLF. "Learn PLF". But nobody is explaining HOW. Is it a secret? Anyone brave here to raise the hand? How to do high horizontal speed PLF properly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skr 1 #37 December 23, 2004 >I have now made it my mission to learn the PLF and >practice, practice, practice so it becomes second nature. That's the spirit! :-) And if *you* do it maybe a few of your peers will too. Lot's of people will follow if only someone will lead. >I am not happy with the fact that my school is only >concerned with teaching FF skills and they don't even >mention the landing or canopy skills. Eeeee .. The Disneyland-ification of skydiving .. Well, it's too big a soapbox to fit in one of these little reply windows, but .. Some systematic effort to learn canopy skills is a really good idea too, both aspects, the toggle techniques that make your canopy do things, and the large scale strategic thinking skills about what to do between opening and entering the pattern, managing traffic and so on. There's been tons of stuff written here by Billvon and others. I put a thing over at http://indra.net/~bdaniels/ftw/c_wings_level.html There are canopy schools springing up. >But it is my >responsibility to keep myself from getting injured again >so I will learn it myself. (With help from my friends.) Yes, a few experienced friends is a good path. Also keep some perspective. Learning to fly today's canopies is a long journey. It takes a season or two just to make your way through the foundation stuff. Skr Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skr 1 #38 December 23, 2004 >Everybody is talking about PLF. "Learn PLF". >But nobody is explaining HOW. >Is it a secret? :-) :-) Apparently it's becoming so in the jump world. The general idea, feet and knees together, breakables pulled in, round off the corners, twist into the roll and make it happen the way you want, has been around for thousands of years, in other activities. But the easiest "HOW" is to get a military jumper or an old timer to show you, and then use a matress or the pea gravel or something soft to practice on, and practice. Skr Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,424 #39 December 23, 2004 First read this. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=640825;search_string=PLF;#640825 Then go find someone at your DZ whose been to AIrborne School and ask them to follow my outline. I've said it before and I'll say it again....EP's are taught a lot more than PLFs, but you'll use PLF's hundreds more time than you will EP's.Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Freeflysmiley 2 #40 December 23, 2004 Yet we still see, 2 sub-100 jump wonders continuing to debate the nuances, and intricacies of something they clearly (in the actual setting ...not just "clinically") DON'T KNOW SQUAT ABOUT, PERPETUATING their self generated FALACIES (ooh ...lets forget about what Skratch Garrison has to say, or Michael Owens, or others with 1,000's upon 1,000's of jumps, and literally DECADES of EXPERIENCE... that's right, let's just IGNORE them, and continue on with our butt-slide babble ...because between us with this babble we'll figure this one out better than they ever could for sure! ). ....DOH! *** I'm not sure if that referred to me, but I didn't make any comments on the rights and wrongs of butt slidings. I've never done one and have no intention of doing one diliberately. All i said in reply to: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- So, don't slide on your butt. You shouldn't need to slide at all. But if anything slide on one thigh and cheek. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- reply If you're gonna slide it in, I can't think of any reason you wouldn't be better off rolling over to one cheek. Esp on grass, it's pretty soft if the speed is mostly horizonal. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- WAS Ummh, I'm a newbie jumper, but I know a fair bit about anatomy and there would be much less lower spine trauma sliding on one side (i.e one cheek and leg) then just butt sliding . I'm a surgeon so I'd hope my knowledge of anatomy would stand up.I did not advocate any butt sliding for or against. Doh-------------------------------------------------- Practise the 6 P's! -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #41 December 23, 2004 Getting a hard-on for me now, eh smiley? I'm flattered. The point was my supreme frustration in apparently several low-timers on this board asking for input and advice. Then when they GET IT, and on top of that from someone as emminently qualified and EXPERIENCED as Skratch Garrison, they don't take it! Nothing specifically intended or singled out towards you. Your insights and opinions are welcome. Didn't mean to "pick on you" specifically. Sorry if it seemed that way. Maybe you can now do the same for/with me & we can move on. I still stand by my assertion that this string could have ended back with post #25 (Skratch's). Looks like it could have even YET AGAIN with his post #38 above, if US (me too ...compared to him) LOWBIES could just "get over ourselves". I'll do that now Smiley, if you will too. How's that? Happy Holidays, and BLUE SKIES, -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeth 0 #42 December 24, 2004 Quote Some systematic effort to learn canopy skills is a really good idea too, both aspects, the toggle techniques that make your canopy do things, and the large scale strategic thinking skills about what to do between opening and entering the pattern, managing traffic and so on. There's been tons of stuff written here by Billvon and others. I put a thing over at http://indra.net/~bdaniels/ftw/c_wings_level.html There are canopy schools springing up. Skr Yup, I am definitely going to make sure my instructors include the canopy skills that are in the syllabus on all my future plan/debrief's. I will also be taking a canopy course whenever its available after I graduate. Canopy skills are what will allow me to complete my fantastic skydive with a safe landing, to me thats the most important thing! I still have difficulties planning the approach, I can never tell where on the ground I'm gonna end up. *sigh*, I guess it just takes practice. I will look into those other sources of written info. Thanx."At 13,000 feet nothing else matters." PFRX!!!!! Team Funnel #174, Sunshine kisspass #109 My Jump Site Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,424 #43 December 24, 2004 QuoteI will look into those other sources of written info Notice in the first one (From the USPA SIM), the arms are in the groin area since that's where they should be when you flare... The other pictures are of military training in which they don't flare since they're jumping rounds. http://www.uspa.org/publications/SIM/2004SIM/images/PLF2.pdf http://www.nomi.med.navy.mil/STD/ASTCPens/PLF.htm http://herbertholeman.com/para/units/plf.htm http://www.tpub.com/content/parachutes/TM-10-1670-213-10/css/TM-10-1670-213-10_28.htmNobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Freeflysmiley 2 #44 December 24, 2004 Being that I like women, I'm afraid not mate! I understand your points.-------------------------------------------------- Practise the 6 P's! -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
udder 0 #45 January 7, 2005 I decided to practice said PLF. About a 5m run up sprinting and jumpin off a 1m step. On grass this was still rather painful, and washing off foward speed was a problem. I rolled pretty hard on my hips and my legs went round into the ground with an almighty thump. Also taught me to keep elbow well tucked in. Seeing as this is only running pace and i could only manage 4 practice downwind plf's, how do you wash off that speed in a 45mph downwind landing? Bill could you elaborate on how you keep your legs out in front of you, when you spoke about the downwind plf? I cant seem to figure this out because I think it would just look like a slide but resting on your side? or have I got it all wrong?"In one way or the other, I'm a bad brother. Word to the motherf**ker." Eazy-E Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #46 January 7, 2005 Quote ...went round into the ground with an almighty thump. Quote They should use THAT wording for incident reports and the like...I love it! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craig_b 0 #47 January 7, 2005 QuoteIt just amazes me. We all (supposedly) WANT, and look to the input of these MASTERS. Yet when we actually get it, we eschew it???? Once again, being a true newbie here agree completely with this. I had a short but important conversation with my "mentor", one who does have over 2000 jumps, 10 years experience and was the one that I watched that got me interested in this sport. This short conversation revovled around stand-up vs "butt slide". She literally chewed me up. Yes, she will do a slide and said THAT IS COMPLETELY WRONG TO DO and I had better learn PLF and stand up real good. She admitted to her learning errors, passed along her experience and told me to never ever butt slide again. I have not butt slid in since then. I hope this does give the experienced ones here the optimisim that some of us are listening and learning with each word you say. Thank you for ALL the input. _________________________________________ once you've experienced flight, you forever walk the ground with your head pointed skyward. There you've been and there you long to return. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #48 January 7, 2005 QuoteI have not butt slid in since then. I hope this does give the experienced ones here the optimisim that some of us are listening and learning with each word you say I think there are far more new jumper listening then not. Its just that the ones that don't/won't listen seem to draw more attention with their results of blowing off sound advise. But someone once told me that pain is an excellent teacher. The greater the pain, the fewer repetitions are required. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,080 #49 January 8, 2005 > how do you wash off that speed in a 45mph downwind landing? The trick is getting your vertical speed to zero, which is hard to do if you run, jump and try to PLF. >Bill could you elaborate on how you keep your legs out in front of > you, when you spoke about the downwind plf? Basically you want to end up sliding like someone slides into home plate - feet first, feet and knees together, sliding on your thigh. You definitely don't want to slide on your butt with your legs spread! To practice this, wait until it's raining and wear old clothes. Start running on wet grass. Get some speed and then just lay it down - let your CG get behind you so that your feet go in front of you. It's almost like you're trying to kick a soccer ball in front of you in with the bottoms of your feet. If you want to think about it, think about the first three points of contact (your feet, calves and thighs) - but they all happen pretty quickly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
udder 0 #50 January 8, 2005 Cheersfor clearing that up. I got my painting clothes ready for the next rain. Another question, is it better to have the brakes down just below your rib cage for the PLF? Because this leaves your elbows and arms as a point of impact which wouldnt be too fun. On the other hand tucking my arms in leaves the toggles on top of my chest, which doesnt create much of a flare, more a 1/4 to half brake approach. Or should you flare fully and land with your arms in front? Just rolling instead?"In one way or the other, I'm a bad brother. Word to the motherf**ker." Eazy-E Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
