bozo 0
airdvr 210
If you'd like to debate my value system I'll be happy to do that with you. Start a thread and let's go. I'm quite comfortable with the subject. But I couldn't help notice that you haven't responded to my questions either. Perhaps you don't think they're worth discussing.
Please don't dent the planet.
Destinations by Roxanne
Destinations by Roxanne
bozo 0
QuoteBut I couldn't help notice that you haven't responded to my questions either. Perhaps you don't think they're worth discussing.
Your value system is what it is. Its not my job to try to change that.
I also dont care to debate with you. I pointed out a couple of relevent points in your posts to allude to the character of the poster.
The USPA will go on regardless of what we say here due largely to the apathy of the majority of jumpers. The USPA knows that most jumpers couldnt give a shit what they do....as its always been.... and continue to do anything they want.
bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.
The111 1
QuoteQuoteI actually spoke to a few agencies that specialize in unique insurance policies. None of them would touch it for the mentioned 30k members at 10.00 each per year
Did you offer them $20 a year? $25? There's a big difference between $300k and $600k or $750k.
At this point anything less than $35 or $40 and you could count me in.
Does anyone know what company underwrites the policy? They're obviously comfortable with the risk, and might be willing to write though another agent if the money was right.
Does anyone know the dollar amounts for paying the claims over a year? Is there a limit per occurance? Can we self insure with an escrow account and a couple of administrators?
I'd feel comfortable with couple of insurance agents and a couple of lawyers (all skydivers) watching over the fund.
Even if all this worked out... would it help us stop Skyride at all? Now we're a bunch of self-insured jumpers, free of USPA. But would that have any effect on Skyride?
www.WingsuitPhotos.com
billvon 3,107
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Both of you cut it out. Stop attacking each other.
QuoteQuoteI just dont see them as being good for the members at this point...
Disband... dissappear there are other insurance alternatives out there that would welcome the memb ers as a group.
Find one. I tried.
Do you have a homeowner or renter policy with a liability clause? Call your agent and ask them whether you're covered in the event you land on someone's car or roof. And what your deductible is. And whether a claim will be excluded just because the injured party is a USPA member. Next, compare and contrast to the insurance USPA provides us. I'll tell you this much, it would be a strange day that I would turn in a claim through USPA's insurer rather than State Farm.
Oh, and one more thing...if your conversation with your insurance agent left you pleasantly surprised, you can go for broke by asking them if your loss coverage includes your gear being stolen from or lost at the DZ (the latter a result of cutaway and relevant given the cost of mains these days). State Farm will cover such losses, at least under some circumstances. A good friend of mine switched to them on my advice just because of this coverage and ended up using it a few months later. They bought her a new main, risers, D-bag, freebag, kill-line PC, reserve PC, and handles, minus a $500 deductible.
Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)
(drink Mountain Dew)
The111 1
QuoteDo you have a homeowner or renter policy with a liability clause?
Do most skydivers?
www.WingsuitPhotos.com
QuoteQuoteThere are often gag orders connected to settlements.
You're right, especially with product liability, but this one I don't quite get. One thing that bothers me here: can you think of any reason the plaintiffs would want this in place?
A settlement often involves concessions by both parties. If I were the plaintiff in a case like this and agreed to do certain things from this point forward in exchange for things from the defendant, I'd probably want my committments kept quiet. This would keep people from knowing I admitted culpability and more importantly, would prevent the 30+ thousand member constituency of the defendent from knowing what requirements I was expected to abide by. How many people would you want checking your compliance with such a settlement?
Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)
(drink Mountain Dew)
Krip 2
We already have a national organization that provides liabililty insurance and the appearence of credability.
Why throw out the baby with the bath water. We just need to encourage in the strongest terms USPA to break away the GMDZ program from USPA.
I think a reforendum on the next USPA ballot would do it. Something like
Should the GMDZ program be eliminated from USPA
Yes
No
Why throw out the baby with the bath water. We just need to encourage in the strongest terms USPA to break away the GMDZ program from USPA.
I think a reforendum on the next USPA ballot would do it. Something like
Should the GMDZ program be eliminated from USPA
Yes
No
jumper03 0
How about a related question - If USPA did NOT have a GM program - how many DZOs would still run for seats on the board?
Scars remind us that the past is real
johndh1 0
QuoteA settlement often involves concessions by both parties. If I were the plaintiff in a case like this and agreed to do certain things from this point forward in exchange for things from the defendant, I'd probably want my committments kept quiet. This would keep people from knowing I admitted culpability and more importantly, would prevent the 30+ thousand member constituency of the defendent from knowing what requirements I was expected to abide by. How many people would you want checking your compliance with such a settlement?
Blues,
Dave
I can see what you mean, but at the same time, I personally believe that the defendant side reps have more to hide than the plaintiff side (as far as the settlement, I mean).
It is a complete slap in the faces of the existing and previous board members who made the decision that brought this suit in the first place.
Roll Tide Roll
Remster 30
QuoteQuoteDo you have a homeowner or renter policy with a liability clause?
Do most skydivers?
They should. Renter's insurance is cheap. I know I was paying like 70$ a year when I was renting a couple years back.
Remster
QuoteQuoteAnd you're also in the "buyer beware" group also. What a surprise.
Let the customer compare what? The truth to the lies that are designed to lead the business away from the true business.
I guess since this is not your problem there is really no since in you being here to state your opinion.
For the record I am most definitely with the "buyer beware" crowd.
The laissez-faire means that the neoclassical school of economic thought holds a pure or economically liberal market view: that the free market is best left to its own devices, and that it will dispense with inefficiencies in a more deliberate and quick manner than any legislating body could. The basic idea is that less government interference in private economic decisions such as pricing, production, consumption, and distribution of goods and services makes for a better, or more efficient, economy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laissez-faire
You seem to be awful quick to point out my perceived shortcomings, but you haven't answered my questions either.
I've read many of your posts here and liked reading your viewpoint. We all have a take on things and we all have a right to state them here. Debate me on the issues...don't give me PA's or question my value system. You don't know me well enough to do that.
You sir put your value system on display.
Your above reference was probably valid at one time. A time when there was not a scam artist around every other corner. In todays day and time it does not hold much water.
I'm not sure what questions you are talking about. Fire away.
airdvr 210
If you're not a DZO why does this bother you so much?
If you are a DZO what are you doing about it?
Isn't this a DZO problem and up to them to solve?
If you are a DZO what are you doing about it?
Isn't this a DZO problem and up to them to solve?
Please don't dent the planet.
Destinations by Roxanne
Destinations by Roxanne
QuoteIf you're not a DZO why does this bother you so much?
Besides the fact this shit started in my back yard and I saw what effect it had on honest people trying to run a nice DZ. Because of my value system it bothers me to see people get screwed, either by having to drive 400 miles to do a tandem or not doing one at all because they were not willing to make the drive or being at ASC on one of the days they intentionally booked twice as many tandems as they could do because the owners knew that most of the rain checks they gave out would never come back. Would you like for me to go on?
If you are a DZO what are you doing about it?
I'm not a DZO but I will still do anything I can to stop someone from getting screwed.
Isn't this a DZO problem and up to them to solve?
No, This is a skydiving problem and it's a USPA problem. It's a member problem because right now we are stuck with the DZs that are doing business with these asshats and part of my money is going to support a program that I don't agree with anymore.
After 27 years in skydivng, you can't see that skyride is bad for the sport? It's not a DZO problem... lots of shitty DZOs work with them. It's a skydiving problem. Trouble is that it's the DZOs (or the government) that can do anything about it.
As long as there's a turbine plane at the DZ, it's all good, right?
Dave
As long as there's a turbine plane at the DZ, it's all good, right?
Dave
Amazon 7
QuoteYour value system is what it is. Its not my job to try to change that.
I also dont care to debate with you. I pointed out a couple of relevent points in your posts to allude to the character of the poster.
I dont know.. but when I was growing up there was this pesky saying of... " you are known by the company you keep"
I try to avoid crooks in my life.... just my choice.. but its worked out pretty well for me up till now.
JCW1966 0
You know what's stupid? Everyone who blames the ASC dropzones for what Skyride does or doesn't do.
Skyride is a reservation business.
The dropzones are a skydiving business.
The reservations are not made through the dropzones. But yet people want to bad mouth the dropzones, their employees, and those who jump there.
Bottom line, USPA was wrong to go after Skyride via yanking the memberships of ASC dropzones. By doing so they did not hurt Skyride one bit. All they did was hurt ASC dropzones and really didn't do a whole lot there did they? So much for promoting skydiving. Oh I guess that's what happens when you have dropzone owners on the USPA BOD. Kind of a conflict of interest there. A dropzone owner is going to look after his dropzone first as any smart business owner would, not the interest of the skydiving community as a whole. But because of that fact bad decisions were made on behalf of the USPA. Personally I don't think dropzone owners should be allowed on the USPA's BOD.
By pulling the memberships of ASC dropzones the USPA punished the wrong businesses. Doesn't matter that they are owned by the same owners of Skyride, they're separate entities. And in the end it bit the USPA in the butt. It also wasted the money that we, as individual members, pay in the form of yearly dues. I bet USPA's attorneys won't complain about the money they made off of this mess. They should have told USPA not to do what they did in the first place. Instead they took our money and got the USPA into a situation they could not win. Doesn't take an attorney to figure that one out. Attorneys are suppose to advise their clients. Either the USPA got bad advice or no advice at all. Yet I haven't heard anyone complain about the USPA's attorneys.
Get a grip, layoff ASC dropzones. They have nothing to do with what goes on in the offices of Skyride.
If you want to complain about Skyride you should complain about Skyride and the people who work there. Not the dropzones, which by the way have excellent staff and equipment.
As far as Skyride they had what, 300 complaints out of how many of thousands of reservations they make a year?
My 1st skydive was an AFF LVL 1. I made my reservation through Skyride and had no problems. I even paid for the AFF package and dealt with Skyride until I completed my AFF course, not a single problem.
I jump at the Cedartown and Prattville locations. I consider them my home and consider the people there my family and friends.
As far as other litigation against Skyride that's what the Better Business Bureau is for. And if all complaints filed with them have been resolved then there's not much they can do either.
I enjoy skydiving and ASC is the place that got me into this fine sport. I can't even begin to count how many people I have seen come into the sport after doing a tandem at an ASC dropzone in the last year and a half.
If you really want to complain about something complain about how USPA handle the situation to begin with. And for letting DZO's on the BOD. Personal interests were put before the skydiving community's interest as a whole. And don't forget the fine legal team that took USPA's money, our money, in the first place.
Speaking of conflict of interest I pay money to the USPA so they can go after the dropzones I jump at. Makes a lot of sense to me. But ASC requires USPA membership even though they were not a USPA affiliated dropzone. There's another conflict, ASC promoted the USPA while the USPA did not promote them.
The USPA needs to police the dropzones and leave the policing of the reservation centers to the Better Business Bureau. At the same time maybe somebody needs to police the USPA.
You know I figure 90 percent of those who read this won't like it. Guess what? There's not a thing I can do about that.
Blue skies everyone, it's time to move on.
Skyride is a reservation business.
The dropzones are a skydiving business.
The reservations are not made through the dropzones. But yet people want to bad mouth the dropzones, their employees, and those who jump there.
Bottom line, USPA was wrong to go after Skyride via yanking the memberships of ASC dropzones. By doing so they did not hurt Skyride one bit. All they did was hurt ASC dropzones and really didn't do a whole lot there did they? So much for promoting skydiving. Oh I guess that's what happens when you have dropzone owners on the USPA BOD. Kind of a conflict of interest there. A dropzone owner is going to look after his dropzone first as any smart business owner would, not the interest of the skydiving community as a whole. But because of that fact bad decisions were made on behalf of the USPA. Personally I don't think dropzone owners should be allowed on the USPA's BOD.
By pulling the memberships of ASC dropzones the USPA punished the wrong businesses. Doesn't matter that they are owned by the same owners of Skyride, they're separate entities. And in the end it bit the USPA in the butt. It also wasted the money that we, as individual members, pay in the form of yearly dues. I bet USPA's attorneys won't complain about the money they made off of this mess. They should have told USPA not to do what they did in the first place. Instead they took our money and got the USPA into a situation they could not win. Doesn't take an attorney to figure that one out. Attorneys are suppose to advise their clients. Either the USPA got bad advice or no advice at all. Yet I haven't heard anyone complain about the USPA's attorneys.
Get a grip, layoff ASC dropzones. They have nothing to do with what goes on in the offices of Skyride.
If you want to complain about Skyride you should complain about Skyride and the people who work there. Not the dropzones, which by the way have excellent staff and equipment.
As far as Skyride they had what, 300 complaints out of how many of thousands of reservations they make a year?
My 1st skydive was an AFF LVL 1. I made my reservation through Skyride and had no problems. I even paid for the AFF package and dealt with Skyride until I completed my AFF course, not a single problem.
I jump at the Cedartown and Prattville locations. I consider them my home and consider the people there my family and friends.
As far as other litigation against Skyride that's what the Better Business Bureau is for. And if all complaints filed with them have been resolved then there's not much they can do either.
I enjoy skydiving and ASC is the place that got me into this fine sport. I can't even begin to count how many people I have seen come into the sport after doing a tandem at an ASC dropzone in the last year and a half.
If you really want to complain about something complain about how USPA handle the situation to begin with. And for letting DZO's on the BOD. Personal interests were put before the skydiving community's interest as a whole. And don't forget the fine legal team that took USPA's money, our money, in the first place.
Speaking of conflict of interest I pay money to the USPA so they can go after the dropzones I jump at. Makes a lot of sense to me. But ASC requires USPA membership even though they were not a USPA affiliated dropzone. There's another conflict, ASC promoted the USPA while the USPA did not promote them.
The USPA needs to police the dropzones and leave the policing of the reservation centers to the Better Business Bureau. At the same time maybe somebody needs to police the USPA.
You know I figure 90 percent of those who read this won't like it. Guess what? There's not a thing I can do about that.
Blue skies everyone, it's time to move on.
Some of us have been around alot longer then you. We know where Skyride was born. Weather you like it or not Skyride was born at ASC. It is a shame that the jumpers today have to live under that shadow but that's the way it is. Your DZOs are crooks.
JCW1966 0
QuoteSome of us have been around alot longer then you. We know where Skyride was born. Weather you like it or not Skyride was born at ASC. It is a shame that the jumpers today have to live under that shadow but that's the way it is. Your DZOs are crooks.
Yep some of you have been around longer than myself. And whether(not weather) you like it or not USPA took it out on the wrong businesses. What did USPA accomplish? Nothing, well they did waste the money of their members.
But you know, I knew you would be the first to jump my butt, you always are.
airdvr 210
QuoteAfter 27 years in skydivng, you can't see that skyride is bad for the sport? It's not a DZO problem... lots of shitty DZOs work with them. It's a skydiving problem. Trouble is that it's the DZOs (or the government) that can do anything about it.
As long as there's a turbine plane at the DZ, it's all good, right?
Dave
I don't like what SR does Dave. Make no mistake about that. But the only people who have a chance of changing it are the DZO's and some of them aren't bothering to do anything about it. Until that change takes place SR is here to stay.
Because of my value system it bothers me to see people get screwed,
I don't like it either but they have recourse. I hear alot of junk about the BBB. That's a toothless organization that I'm certain SR doesn't give a shit about. They have no teeth. When people are getting screwed they need to contact the Attorney General's office in that state. They have the teeth and if enough people complain they'll do something. Wanna do something for them? Have the AG's phone number and website handy and give it to them. Tell them that's where they need to complain.
No, This is a skydiving problem and it's a USPA problem. It's a member problem because right now we are stuck with the DZs that are doing business with these asshats and part of my money is going to support a program that I don't agree with anymore.
Our organization tried to do something and got their ass handed to them. They had no choice but to cave or face a judgement that could have bankrupted them. You make it sound as if this is what they wanted. I can assure you it's not.
Please don't dent the planet.
Destinations by Roxanne
Destinations by Roxanne
DougH 270
QuoteBy pulling the memberships of ASC dropzones the USPA punished the wrong businesses. Doesn't matter that they are owned by the same owners of Skyride, they're separate entities.
Seperate entities? I doesn't matter that they are the same owners? Seperate entitites with the same owners? Stop eating ducttape's lead paint dude!
These aren't corporations that have managers that operate with complete independence from the stock holders.
I am sorry, but I can excuse IBM if one of their stock holders is a criminal scumbag, I bet IBM has a more than a few large stock holders that meet this discription.
This example does NOT apply to ASC.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P
=P
Takes a big man to point out a spelling error
And I'm glad you made that decision. I'm sure the person you helped is thankful. But my decision to not intervene doesn't make me a bad person either.
I have a responsibility to to my kids to be here for them. I can't do that if the mugger decides to kill me. When I was younger I might have felt differently. I'm not so young anymore.
I'm not young either...but I have always tried to make a difference. To do this takes character and risk.
You need to be here for your kids but you still skydive ? My goodness theres quite a contradiction there.
My point is this......sometimes someone needs to stand up to the storm. Its good that there are people that can and will.
bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.