UK Skydiving plane in mid air collision

[Peterkn 17]

The PAC 750-XL from Cark airfield was involved in a mid-air collision with another light aircraft yesretday, according to today's newspapers.
The other aircraft crashed and burned, killing both people on board. The PAC had 3 people on board and landed safely at nearby East Midlands International Airport. The PAC was reported to have lost 2 or 3 wheels of it's wheels in the collision, so probably suffered significant damage on landing.
The collision occurred over Warwickshire, which is at least 100 miles from Cark, so this wouldn't have been a skydiving flight - unless it was a demo.

Pete.

[cpoxon 0]

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The collision occurred over Warwickshire, which is at least 100 miles from Cark, so this wouldn't have been a skydiving flight - unless it was a demo.

Pete.

A thread on UKSkydiver says it was on its way to Cranfield for its annual whilst the centre is closed for Christmas.

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

[JohnRich 4]

Two news stories:

http://www.nwemail.co.uk/news/viewarticle.aspx?id=575683

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=80030&in_page_id=34

[diablopilot 2]

The Luscombe Silvaire is a high wing a/c, the PAC750 a low wing thus providing the possibility of a lot of "blind sky". Pilots need to keep a diligent lookout, but sometimes things happen.

Nearest I've been to a mid air was riding up in a jump 182 in the forward student position and looking past the pilot I watch a Piper Archer on the same heading descend about 300 feet to our aircraft's left. Nothing could really be done about it as local ATC failed to call traffic till AFTER the incident.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diverdriver 7]

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The Luscombe Silvaire is a high wing a/c, the PAC750 a low wing thus providing the possibility of a lot of "blind sky". Pilots need to keep a diligent lookout, but sometimes things happen.

Nearest I've been to a mid air was riding up in a jump 182 in the forward student position and looking past the pilot I watch a Piper Archer on the same heading descend about 300 feet to our aircraft's left. Nothing could really be done about it as local ATC failed to call traffic till AFTER the incident.

In the USA ATC is NOT required to "seperate" VFR traffic even if you are talking to them.


SEE AND AVOID!!

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[diablopilot 2]

Exactly.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[riggerrob 643]

I disagree.
Within VFR control zones, ATC's primary job is maintaining separation between aircraft.
The closest I have ever been to a mid-air collision - in Canada, occurred when a Mooney bungled into the Pitt Meadows control zone without talking to any air traffic controllers.
Normally PM ATC are very good about separating student pilots, banners, gliders, tow planes, helicopters, float planes and skydivers.

[JohnMitchell 16]

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In the USA ATC is NOT required to "seperate" VFR traffic even if you are talking to them.

We're required to call all known traffic to all aircraft receiving traffic advisories, whether VFR or IFR. In class B airspace, we are required to separate them. With that said, more than one traffic call has been missed. And more than one pilot has flown around with his transponder off, making him almost invisible to many ATC radars. See and Avoid has it's limitations, just as radar does also. I like TCAS . . . a lot.

[skyberdyber 0]

How does this happen? There are only like 4 GA aircraft in the whole UK!

http://www.skydiveatlanta.com
http://www.musiccityskydiving.com

[jee 0]

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In the USA ATC is NOT required to "seperate" VFR traffic even if you are talking to them.

We're required to call all known traffic to all aircraft receiving traffic advisories, whether VFR or IFR. In class B airspace, we are required to separate them. With that said, more than one traffic call has been missed. And more than one pilot has flown around with his transponder off, making him almost invisible to many ATC radars. See and Avoid has it's limitations, just as radar does also. I like TCAS . . . a lot.

TCAS is great. But it still doesn't help much for that transponder left in standby mode.

[DBCOOPER 5]

"Within VFR control zones"

What is a VFR control zone?

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

[riggerrob 643]

VFR control zones include Class D airspace (i.e. Pitt Meadows Airport).
Pitt Meadows may have a single instrument landing approach (runway 26 left), but the vast majority of traffic is VFR.
All traffic - VFR and IFR - is required to communicate with Pitt Meadows control tower before entering the control zone.
Similarly, everyone (trucks included) need permission from Pitt Meadows control tower before they move on taxiways or runways.

[vpozzoli 0]

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"Within VFR control zones"

What is a VFR control zone?

Any airspace that is classified as controlled (i.e. radio communication with an ATC entity is mandated and authorization from said entity must be obtained prior to entering said airspace) where VFR flights are permitted.
Currently, this means airspace classes from B through D.
E-F-G are not controlled airspaces and class A is generally forbidden to VFR flights unless otherwise noted or with special authorization (such as for record attempts or other exceptional circumstances).
Cheers,

Vale

[diverdriver 7]

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"Within VFR control zones"

What is a VFR control zone?

Any airspace that is classified as controlled (i.e. radio communication with an ATC entity is mandated and authorization from said entity must be obtained prior to entering said airspace) where VFR flights are permitted.
Currently, this means airspace classes from B through D.
E-F-G are not controlled airspaces and class A is generally forbidden to VFR flights unless otherwise noted or with special authorization (such as for record attempts or other exceptional circumstances).
Cheers,

Vale

When we did the world record stuff in Class A airspace we most certainly were not VFR. We had an IFR flight plan and clearance. It wasn't typcial IFR flight plan and clearance but we were IFR.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[JohnMitchell 16]

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Any airspace that is classified as controlled (i.e. radio communication with an ATC entity is mandated and authorization from said entity must be obtained prior to entering said airspace) where VFR flights are permitted.
Currently, this means airspace classes from B through D.
E-F-G are not controlled airspaces and class A is generally forbidden to VFR flights unless otherwise noted or with special authorization (such as for record attempts or other exceptional circumstances).
Cheers,

Close, but no quite. A, B, C, D, and E are controlled airspace. In class A airspace, FL180 and above, all A/C must be on an IFR clearance and controlled. In class B airspace, the old TCAs around our busiest airports, IFR and VFR aircraft must all talk to ATC and be separated. In class C airspace and E sispace, it's legal to fly VFR without talking to or receiving permission from ATC.

So, you can be in controlled airspace without a clearance and without talking to ATC. But you have to be VFR.

BTW, a control zone is an extension of controlled airspace to the ground to contain instrument approaches. The new term in "surface area airspace."

[JohnMitchell 16]

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TCAS is great. But it still doesn't help much for that transponder left in standby mode.

Isn't that the truth?

Some of the stuff I've seen from pilots forgetting that.

[pilotdave 0]

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In class C airspace and E sispace, it's legal to fly VFR without talking to or receiving permission from ATC.

Well, no, that applies to E and G airspace (G is uncontrolled of course). A clearance is required to fly into class B airspace, but radio communication with the tower is still required for entering C or D airspace. Only real difference is you don't need the magic "cleared into the class ____ airspace" for C or D.

But regardless, at least in the US, ATC isn't required to provide traffic advisories to VFR traffic. Last airport I flew out of was a class D with no radar. Made things really uncomfortable to me, since pilots do a whole lot less talking at a controlled airport (believe it or not) and the tower has to rely on pilots to be where they're supposed to be. The tower can give approximate locations of traffic and they try to sequence arrivals, departures, and transitioning traffic so they avoid each other, but it's still 100% the pilots responsibility to see and avoid traffic.

Dave

[JohnMitchell 16]

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In class C airspace and E sispace, it's legal to fly VFR without talking to or receiving permission from ATC.

Well, no, that applies to E

Oops, you're correct. I was thinking of radar approach controls that don't have class B airspace. PDX approach is one that I was thinking of. Of course, all the towered airports in the approach control's airspace would have class C or D airspace. The rest of the approach control would be Class E airspace. Thanks for the correction.

BTW, I remember McMinnville, Oregon, MMV, for years had an ILS approach that finished in Class G airspace. Since there was no weather reported at MMV, there was no Class E surface area airspace. Somehow the FAA was okay with me running IFR operations into uncontrolled airspace.

[hudsonderek 0]

well ATC isn't in the plane with you, so if you collide with someone, they might lose their job, but at least they are still alive, where as you aren't for not looking out the window. Pilots are responsible for collision avoidance.