outside tandem video VS handicam

[tonyhays 86]

It's not a matter of "if" the US goes to handicam, it's a matter of "when". With the rising cost of fuel, a lot of dzo's will not have a choice if they actually want to make money.

I love outside video, it's how i got my start in the sport. It is an absolutely better product, no doubts about it. However, as a full time tandem instructor I have no problem strapping a camera to my hand. It actually allows me to do this for a living and eat something other than ramen noodles every now and then.

I predict outside video will be all but gone within 5 - 10 years here in the US.

“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”

[rhys 0]

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I predict outside video will be all but gone within 5 - 10 years here in the US.

That would be stupid! simply charge more for the outside camera.

I am suprised so many U.S. DZ's have survived for so long charging how little they do.

Outside camera (vid and stills) is worth $200 but you still see DZ's charging less than $100.

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[tsalnukt 1]

How do you figure ti's worth 200 bucks??? The studenta are already paying 200+ for the skydive and it's hard enough to get them to pay the 100 bucks for the video. I would say that by keeping it cheaper, more people will buy, more people will see it when they get home and show their friends, more people will come and pay 200+ for a tandem.

It's one of the best forms of advertising....that along with the students talking about how great a time they had is what sells most of the tandems. Most of the time people are overextending themselves (or momand dad's credit card) just to jump out of a plane. If you make the video so far out of reach then you won't sell them. If you sell it well and offer it to them so that they "really can't pass it up" then of course they are gonna buy it. I think it's better to be jupming all day at 50 bucks a jump then wait around all day for that 100 dollar jump. Ok....we have more expenses then TM and AFF instructors but, if you put out a killer product at an affordable price you'll make plenty of money to pay for linesets pack jobs video gear(if the DZ doesn't already provide) and fun jumps.

I just don't see how a tandem video can really be worth that much.

[DSE 5]

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How do you figure ti's worth 200 bucks??? .

I agree.
Good videographer in "real world" makes 75.00 per hour plus gear rental, for DV figure roughly 400.00 per day if they Xport a light kit. That 75.00 per hour doesn't come close to the roughly 10-15.00 per hour paid to elementary/cuts-only editors.
A-Skydiving is specialized, but not specialized enough to take a 15 minute edit plus 10 minute shoot and turn it into 200.00
B-Quality of the work and quality of the camcorder don't remotely warrant 200.00 per jump, IMO.
But I sure wish we could make that much.
However, at 50.00 per jump, the DZ is short-changing everyone involved, IMO.
I also disagree that "if you put out a killer product at an affordable price" etc. This whole thread seems to be about flying the camera, which is of course, *very* important, but overall is less than half the delivered video product. It's about good editing, interview, etc. It's not about the length of the video, it's about how well the final product tells the story, and helps the student remember the experience. It's not even about whether it's handcam or outside cam. It's about the story and the memory. Most only give a damn about whether they can see themselves in the air or not. IMO, the cameraman that can fly silly circles around the student is as bad as the guy that sticks the camera in their face for the entire skydive. It's about helping them relive their experience. And there are a lot of ways to achieve that memory without being a great camera operator, IMO. As skydivers, we look at the videos with a critical eye to the skydive, but rarely look at the story and the memory it creates.
*That* is where the return customer/friends/family and subsequent $$ come from, IMO.
It's always about the story whether it's skydiving or vacation videos, MOW's, or feature-length films. Fancy camera work can't change that small fact.

[billvon 3,116]

>Outside camera (vid and stills) is worth $200 but you still see DZ's
>charging less than $100.

It's worth what you can get for it. If DZ A has $220 video+stills package and DZ B has a $99 deal for video+stills. generally DZ B is going to get more business. Which means more work for TM's, video people, packers, office workers, pilots etc.

If DZ B had super cruddy inferior video, then there would be a reason to spend more money. But honestly, the difference in quality between an average video person and an expert isn't all that noticeable to a whuffo. So you hire the average video people, pay them $35 a jump and charge the student $99 for it.

Now, if you want someone to do X and you're an experienced jumper who needs cover-quality shots, then the $220 might well be worth it. But most jumpers at that level know video people well enough to not have to pay "standardized" prices for their video.

[Zing 2]

I've seen very few tandem's videos I'd consider worth even $50. In effect, the purchaser of the video is buying a 10 minute canned advertisement that contains less than 30% of footage that actually shows the video buyer. The final tape or CD goes home with the jumper, gets shown a few times and goes on the shelf, rarely to be looked at again.
If I bring a friend or relative out for a tandem jump and the price is $200, I expect them to get the tandem jump, a copy of a video of the jump and the preliminairies, not a hand-cam, AND, get treated with respect by a staff demonstrating a professional demeanor, or else I won't be bringing them to your dropzone.
I know some vidiots who are damned good camera flyers ... they hold the camera still, the video is in focus and the framing fits the format and the lens.
A huge percentage of videos that go home with student jumpers are shot on cheap cameras, edited poorly into a series of cuts spliced jarringly together with overly loud music and poor sound quality to the voice recording parts.
When you finally get to the part where the star of the video appears, the cameraman can't seem to hold the camera still, misses catching the expression on the passenger's face and then seems to have a great need to induce vertigo and nausea in the viewer by flailing around on least three axii, often ending up so far away that the footage could be of almost any one who ever jumped.
Show me a professional video of that special jump, and I'll give you $50, but price it at $200 and you'll be eating a lot more Ramen noodle dinners.
Oh yeah, from a pilot's perspective on vidiots, don't stand 2 feet in front of a whirling propellor to try and stick your camera in the pilot's face, unless you want to be told to "GET THE FUCK AWAY FROM THAT PROPELLOR, MORON!" And don't edit that part into the final product either ... it appears to encourage more people to think its okay for them to wander around close to those spinny metal things, which are self clearing devices.
I know a lot of busy tandem masters and vidiots making a living off doing that, but I won't be bringing most of them my friends and relatives.

Snivel, bitch, rant, moan, etc.

Zing Lurks

[rhys 0]

We sold videos photo combos for US$200 in africa and maintaned at least 80% strike rate.

In NZ we could do up to 150+ people a day Combos are NZ$230 and a 15000' jump is NZ $395.

Customers could jump @ 9000' for NZ$250 but the constantly que up to do 15000' jumps with photos and video.

Maybe yoour products seem too cheap at that price, maybe they are cheap.

Maintain good quality, garantee good quality and give refunds for poor quality then you will have a product that is worth the money.

offer hand cam also for the cheapo's but generally people that want to jump from planes have some money and for a few of them price is no object.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[yarak 0]

its funny how people got on here and just started bashing a broad generalized group of people. talking about how most videographers suck and are dangerous. This thing was almost instantly off topic. I think it was the second or third post that some egomaniac started there negative condescending rant. I'm sure the people one here who are talking trash will be the first to tell you how good they are.
No one can just start out being good like im sure you guys did.(CSpence, riggerrob, & tsalnukt) I bet norman kent was even a beginer at some point.

but back on topic...............I think the hand mount camera sucks as a primary shot. If its used in conjunction with outside video then it provides excellent extra footage and cut aways(video not parachutes). The extra effort would demand a higher price though. And at a busy DZ it would be difficult to provide a real "professional" product. There just isnt time, unless its mailed later.

As far as camera quality goes.........the PC 1000 shoots about as good as most prosumer miniDV's. As long as the light is good. Now with the new HDV and solid state cameras its hard to find a poor quality camera when prepared to cameras from 5 years ago.

I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll burn your fucking packing tent down.

[tsalnukt 1]

I'vve been at this for a little while and I'll be the first to admit that I was TERRIBLE when I started. I understand that EVERYONE has to start somewhere. The "crappy" video people that I was referring to arre the ones that "claim" to be professionals and "claim" to have hundereds if not thousands of video jumps. They are the ones that think think they are "king shit on terd island" and their videos are the "greatest. They are the ones that "get it done" and don't really care about the product that is being sold or the peple they are selling it to. They are the ones that care more about getting making sure they are getting paid then they are about making s first time student happy. They are the ones that see dollar signs instead of students. I don't think that talking about crappy video people is that far off topic considering we are talking about having a sub-par handicam video or a sub-par outside video. The latter should be better and a lot of times, these days, they are not. "Preparing" Video cameras is a bit more "off topic" than "bashing" crappy video people.

[diablopilot 2]

The difference is you know your limitations, and fly within them when it comes to producing a paid for product.

I had to do 100 video jumps and show the product to my DZO before I was ever let near a tandem.

I see too many 200 to 300 TOTAL jump skydivers buy some gear, and want to get paid from jump 1. Then they start off with the front float exits and sit/back flying shots.

That's not what's being paid for.

If jumpers want to become good a videoing tandems, they'll listen to the TI's and other experience flyers. They'll spend more time on the camera step learning hot to get the right exit, and on their bellies getting the solid shots, till it's almost both boring and automatic, BEFORE doing the "creative" shenaigains. Even after we have that extra bag o' tricks, a good tandem camera flyer will only use them sparingly.

More "dazzle" really doesn't cover up a lack of "substance".

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[tsalnukt 1]

Unfortunately there are so many of the 200 jump wonders that want to start making money in the sport and they think that strapping a camera on their head is an "easy" way to make money and "practice" their flying that they learned in the tunnel, instead of learning to be "professional video people" where the end product means a whole lot more than just a paycheck. Over the past years, I think, the overall quality of videos has gone down so that the newbies don't know what a good video should be. If the standard of videos has gone down then why shouldn't a DZO use Handi-cams rather than pay for an outside video person that is only gonna produce a product that is barely better than a handi-cam.

[rhys 0]

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If jumpers want to become good a videoing tandems, they'll listen to the TI's and other experience flyers.

I agree, but the responsability lies with the DZO to make sure they have a standard to rise up to.

I started selling photos and videos @ 270 jumps but I had to be able to produce consecutive rolls of 24 exposures of film (yes film) before i would even be considered as a camera flyer.

If I gave less than 20 good photos the client recieved a refund and I didn't get paid.

It doesn't matter if you have 200 jumps or 8000 jumps if your quality is good it is good, if it is shit it is shit.

And I still think a video and photo combo is well worth $200 if it is good quality.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[CSpenceFLY 1]

They are only worth what people will pay and at $200 I think you would see a reduction in video sales.

[davelepka 4]

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And I still think a video and photo combo is well worth $200 if it is good quality.

I think the problem with that in the states is that the jump itself is usually right around $200. I can't see people doubling the cost of their jump for video.

As far as the quality goes, I don't see that as an issue in regards to sales. Most customers have no concept of what a quality video is. They generally will be very happy with what you or I might describe as a 'meduim' quality video.

I'm not saying that every video guy out there shouldn't always be working to make sure their next video is in some way better than their last. They should, but I think it has little effect on the sales percentage of first time (usually one-time) jumpers.

What's the exchnage rate between US and NZ these days? I'm wondering what $200 US would convert to in NZ. Also, how many DZs are there in NZ? How many in close proximity to each other?

I ask because in my area we have three, all within one hour of each other, and the competition for business helps to keep the prices in check. I could imagine if there was one DZ, being the only show in town, they could easily charge more.

[Liemberg 0]

A long time ago (rec.skydiving days) the immortal and annoying "Snuffy" told us the following joke:

A yuppie skydiver is planning to leave the DZ. He has almost put his brand new gearbag in the back of his shining new Audi A8 2.5 TDI stationcar when his eye is caught by a guy in a camerasuit that is eating the grass that surrounds the DZ's parkinglot. The yup speaks to the grasseater and find out that he is in fact a professional cameraflyer - who ran in a bit of bad luck with not enough demand for his services.

"Poor man" the yup says "A talented person like yourself shouldn't be eating the grass at the DZ, Please do step into my car and accompany me to my house!"

"O thank you kind sir" the cameraflyer replies "can a bring my wife and my three kids also?"

"A but yes of course!"

"And how about my colleague cameraflyers that are grazing overthere, across the road?"

"This is an Audi stationcar! There's always room for more! Besides, my whuffo wife keeps nagging me about mowing the lawn ever since I started skydiving every weekend after my first tandemjump - so the faster its done, the better with me!"

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[CSpenceFLY 1]

So you really can make a living skydiving and free food too.

[DSE 5]

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[
What's the exchnage rate between US and NZ these days? I'm wondering what $200 US would convert to in NZ. Also, how many DZs are there in NZ? How many in close proximity to each other?

200.00 NZD = 154.50 USD

We had much of this discussion in the photo forum a while back. Because of the time investment and gear investment, I suggested that there is nothing wrong with the vidiot making more on a jump than the TI, if he's spending the time to make great video. To use Walt Appel's words, that went over "like a turd in punchbowl"....
I'd like to see tandem vids that tsalnukt, JP, CSpenseFly, DaveLepka, and others feel are good/benchmark benchmark videos and worth the approx 100.00 or so that folks are paying for video jumps.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

I don't demand that much in a video.

-Reasonable length video (not the 3 min. ones)
-Decent interview(not "lets go skydive" and the next scene is climb out)
-Video close and in frame and in focus(not so far away that you could use one video for all and they would never know)
-Not head down
-I prefer no wide angle(they are a crutch for people that can't keep their subject in frame and people generally don't like having the camera shoved in their face for the close shot.

I also think that the video concession should have some sort of uniformity in videos. This does away with one customer being upset because their video is different from their friends.

[DSE 5]

I understand the description, I'd like to *see* one for purposes of comparison. Hopefully with the thousands of video's you've shot, you've got a favorite that you might upload?

[CSpenceFLY 1]

I have hours of raw footage. I never made copies of the final product. I'll see if I can figure out how to upload here

[tsalnukt 1]

I'll figure out how to upload it and let you know.

[davelepka 4]

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200.00 NZD = 154.50 USD

We had much of this discussion in the photo forum a while back. Because of the time investment and gear investment, I suggested that there is nothing wrong with the vidiot making more on a jump than the TI,

That's what I thought. $150 video is closer to a reality than a $200 video. I know some places that currently charge in the neighborhood of $120 or $130 for DVD and digital stills (one place adds an 8 x 10 to that).

If the any of the above DZs suddenly became the only place to jump within a couple hundred miles, I could see them looking for $150. If my DZ suddenyl became the only game in town, I could see us bumping up to the $120/$130 range.


As far as the TI situation, I do make more per jump than the TIs or AFF Is. Just on principal, of course I like being the highest paid jumper on the DZ, but it really apples to oranges, and never considered anyone elses pay with regards to my own.

I'd like to see tandem vids that tsalnukt, JP, CSpenseFly, DaveLepka, and others feel are good/benchmark benchmark videos and worth the approx 100.00 or so that folks are paying for video jumps.
***

That might be tough for me. The DZ provides and retains all DV tapes, and they do all the editing anyway. I'll check and see if I left one in my camera at the end of the season. maybe I can come up with some raw footage for you.

I also have since used all my memory cards for family stuff, so there goes the stills.

About 5 years ago, I lost all interest in editing, or saving any footage of any kind. I review EVERY video and EVERY still before turning them into the editor, so I can personally see what did or did not work on that jump, and file the knowledge away in my noggin.

It's like my view on logging jumps. I don't do it. I jump, I learn, I jump again. I look forward, not back. It's not for everyone, but that's how I roll.

Edit to add - I looked, and I got nothin. No tape in the camera (or anywhere in my house for that matter). I've attached the only still I have on my computer. It's been my wallpaper since I shot it this summer.

This is the full frame image, no cropping or editing. If I can't get it right in freefall, then it's just not right period.

[rhys 0]

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That's what I thought. $150 video is closer to a reality than a $200 video.

The NZ$230 for a DVD and stills combo equates to US$178.

More than competition I think a defining factor maybe the scenery.

In Tanzania we were Using US$ and were charging US$199 for DVD/stills combo and were gaining an 80% strike rate.

Having good scenery is definately a good drawcard.

Someong mentioned that they do not like super wide angle lenses and they make it easier to produce the videos??????

My ass.

I have just started using a 0.2 black eye for outside with my sigma 10-20 set on 10mm for stills.

If you do not stay tight on exit and throughout the freefall the subject will look like a dot. but if you get it right it looks awesome with all the scenery (if you have scenery) in the footage.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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Someong mentioned that they do not like super wide angle lenses and they make it easier to produce the videos??????

My ass.

I have just started using a 0.2 black eye for outside with my sigma 10-20 set on 10mm for stills.

If you do not stay tight on exit and throughout the freefall the subject will look like a dot. but if you get it right it looks awesome with all the scenery (if you have scenery) in the footage.

You are right. In the hands of a competent video flyer a wide angle is a good tool. I was refering to it's use simply to keep the subject on the tv screen. That is why I discourage the use by beginners

[DSE 5]

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...This is the full frame image, no cropping or editing. If I can't get it right in freefall, then it's just not right period.

I gotta disagree. Completely. Getting it "right" in freefall is very important, no doubt. However, to ignore the tools available to photographers today is simply wrong. Mike McGowan is a monster photoshopper. He takes very good images and turns them into artwork. So does Norman Kent. So does most any professional ground photographer. Even though my tandem and four-way images are getting to where I'm finally feeling somewhat good about them, I still use Pshop to intensify colors, bring out shadows, crop if not entirely centered, etc. With large megapixel cameras, there is nothing wrong with re-framing a shot. You're better undershooting and cropping than overshooting and inadvertently cutting something off.
Sometimes, the shot isn't achievable from where you are, but you wanna get the best you can when you can, and image processing helps make it the best it can be.
I really would like to see one of your vids, if for no reason other than to give myself and others a benchmark to strive for.