Jan Meyer - Just the tip of the iceberg?

[davelepka 4]

The Jan Mayer thread has brought some interesting viewpoints on the USPA, BOD and the EC. Many seem to feel as if the system has failed, and lost it's usefulness. There have been allegations of mis-conduct and conlifcts of interest, mainly surrounding the concept of DZOs running the USPA.

The claim, in broad sweeping terms, is that the USPA is being run for the benefit of the DZOs, not the jumpers, and that the USPA has lost it's way via the GM program. By creating the GM program, the USPA has become a trade organization, when it should be more focused on the membership, the jumpers themselves.

My position is that there is no difference between the two. It has been established many times that fun jumpers are not a huge profit center for DZs. The price we pay for a jump ticket covers the operating costs of the DZ, but not much more. Tandems and students bring in the majority of the dollars, and the fun jumpers are there to fill out the loads.

Given the situation, I cannot see how what is good for the DZO is not good for the jumpers. As we have seen with many great DZs in the recent past, simply staying in business has proven to be too much of a challenge. Anything a DZO can do to improve their bottom line, and protect their interests in the long term is going to be good for the jumper.

I do not see a conflict between us (the fun jumper) and them (the DZOs). We have the free will to take our business anywhere we please, and they have the right to run their business anyway they please. Despire the fact that we are not a 'cash cow' for the DZOs, most of them recognize that we do bring income to the DZ, as well as create a new instructor base for them to hire from, and help to draw in new jumpers by creating a fun atmosphere.

The other line of thinking has been that there is corruption running rampant through the BOD and EC. I don't have any facts to comment on, but my feeling is that this is not true. I can't see any sort of return available that would push a BOD or EC member to this behavior. There's not enough money in the organization that it could be siphoned off and not noticed. I cannot see an outside source seeing enough benefit to 'pay off' one of the officials in an amount that would cause them to act in an inappropriate manner.


Those are my thoughts, but the real point of this to to hear everyones thoughts. If you have a differing viewpoint, let's hear it. If you have factcs to support your assertions, let's hear those to.

If you have information, but don't want to be the one take it public, PM me, and I'll post it for you. Indicate to me where you want the 'cut' to begin and end, and I'll post it verbatim. I will indicate that it is a quote from a PM, but will not add anything else, or alter the post in any way. I will create my own post if I have comments on your position.

More importantly, this will put everything out on the table. It will open the ideas up to the community, giving more people the chance to comment on, disprove, or support them.

Maybe in this way we can expose some wrong doing, and maybe come up with a viable course of actoin to remedy them. Maybe we can put some rumors to rest, and reveal that things are not as bad as some would have us think.

[chuckakers 426]

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Given the situation, I cannot see how what is good for the DZO is not good for the jumpers.

too easy. who wants to educate this one?

[Thanatos340 1]

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Given the situation, I cannot see how what is good for the DZO is not good for the jumpers.

Funny, That is exactly what Cary Q says whenconfronted about his tactics.
Look at the Airconditioned Packing area and the Planes you have he says.

Does the end truly justify the means?

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I cannot see how what is good for the DZO is not good for the jumpers.

The coach rating is one example of something that appeared to be Good for the Jumpers and Good for the DZO`s. In many places it is. In others it is just a way to extract more money from Students. A good idea that was poorly handled by some DZ`s.

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I do not see a conflict between us (the fun jumper) and them (the DZOs).

Look at the canopy separation BSR that was proposed. Something to protect both HP canopy pilots as well as standard Pattern Flyers.
The cost of implementing this was reason that many DZO`s opposed this idea.
In the end we get a watered down version.

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We have the free will to take our business anywhere we please, and they have the right to run their business anyway they please.

That is true. Especially in areas where there is more than one choice of where to jump but in many parts of the country, there is only one choice for a place to jump. Either jump there or Don’t jump is the choice.

They do have a right to run their business however they please however if the wish to be part of the USPA they must follow certain guidelines. They can choose to not be part of the USPA if they wish.

Unfortunately, Jumpers do not have that choice. If you want to skydive in the US, With very few exceptions.. You MUST be a member of the USPA. The Jumpers do NOT have a choice if they wish to skydive. Even some NON-USPA DZ`s require USPA Membership if you want to jump there.

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The other line of thinking has been that there is corruption running rampant through the BOD and EC.

Having a sitting member of the Executive Committee in business with a group that that was kicked out of the Organization for Ethics Problems and that is suing the organization stinks of corruption no matter how you slice it. It also destroy credibility of the Organization.. How can we kick them out for ethics and then have an Executive Committee Member still taking money fro them? Either they are unethical or they are not. Weather The EC Member voted for the settlement or not, Why would a senior Official in the USPA keep doing business with a group that the USPA just threw out?

[davelepka 4]

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Funny, That is exactly what Cary Q says whenconfronted about his tactics.
Look at the Airconditioned Packing area and the Planes you have he says.

Does the end truly justify the means?

You got me there. I tend to not think of hijm as a DZO, and memeber of the community, but more of a parasite.

If you exclude his ilk, and focus on your average hard working DZo, then I stand by my statement.

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The coach rating is one example of something that appeared to be Good for the Jumpers and Good for the DZO`s. In many places it is. In others it is just a way to extract more money from Students. A good idea that was poorly handled by some DZ`s.

The coach rating has brought many jumpers into the instructional fold. It is great intermediate step for jumpers wanting an AFF rating.

As far as 'extracting' money from studetns, how do you know that the extra income is not needed? I'll remind you that as fun jumpers, we barely pay our way on the DZ, yet we enjoy the benefits of twin turbine aircraft, air conditioned packing areas, swoop ponds, and the like. Who pays for those things?

Maybe the studetns should be paying more. We all agree that the cost of skydiving is only going up. The cost of fuel for sure, but what about the aging fleet of jump planes? The cost of owning and operating them will only go up with time, and given the status of the AC market in the early 80's, there isn't going to be a wide selection of 30 or 40 year old AC for us to choose from in the next 10 to 15 years.

If the price of participation will surely be higher, why not the price of entry? Let's say I wanted to get a rotorcraft rating, and there was a school that would teach me for $50 per hour, all inclusive. I could afford that, but once I had my ticket, I couldn't afford to own or even rent a helo in any capacity.

The bottom line is, as a fun jumper who enjoys the ammenities provide dby student dollars, should you really be critisizing them at the same time? If your home DZ would forego the coach program alltogether, would you write a check for your sahre of the lost income? Or if they kept the coach program, would you pay for the studetns to go through it?

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They do have a right to run their business however they please however if the wish to be part of the USPA they must follow certain guidelines. They can choose to not be part of the USPA if they wish.

I agree 100%

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Having a sitting member of the Executive Committee in business with a group that that was kicked out of the Organization for Ethics Problems and that is suing the organization stinks of corruption no matter how you slice it. It also destroy credibility of the Organization.. How can we kick them out for ethics and then have an Executive Committee Member still taking money fro them?

What's important to establish here, first off, is when did Lee go into business with Skyride? My guess is that it was early on, before they rpoved to be the crooks they are.

Second, did Lee in fact step aside when Skyride issues were on the table? If he did, then it's hard to show a conflict of interest. It shows a recognitionof a conflict, but it also shows a resolution to the conflict.

This leads us to the business end, which is, does Lee have a contractual obligation to Skyride? This would go a long way toward explaining why he remains in business with them. I have no information to prove or disprove this, but I gather that neither do you.

The final point, which I have made before, is that Skyride may represent up to 30% of their business. I know of Skyride participating DZ who admit to that number, so I'll assume it's a fair average.

Lee would stand to lose 30% of his business by breaking away from Skyride. This business would be funneled to another area DZ, and the financial health of Skydive Dallas would be at risk.

Have you spoken to Lee about this? I haven't, but I would be VERY surpirsed to find that he is anything but disgusted with the corner he's been backed into. What seemed like a good marketing plan in the beginning, has turned into 30% of his business being held hostage by crooks who are making up to 20% of the proceeds those cutomers bring in. Do you think he's happy to find himself in this position?

You do realize that he's a nationally recognized expert in the field of Oncology? That's he has spent his life in the medical field curing cancer? You really think that now he's decieded to turn his attentions toward fleecing the USPA, and skydivers in general? How do you explain the years of trouble free operation at Skydive Dallas before the Skyride or USPA situations occured?

[davelepka 4]

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too easy. who wants to educate this one?

State your position. We need all view points accoutned for if we hope to get a reasonable handle on the situation, and in turn, a solution to whatever problems we can uncover, so by all means, share your thoughts with the rest of the class.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

I think that him or any of them that do business with Skyride show that they really do not care about skydiving or the community but instead are worried about the dollar. I could give a shit about the corner he is in because we(the people in Georgia) tried to tell these fuckers what they were getting into but they thought we were kidding. I hope Skyride starts raising their percentage that they charge the DZs. It would serve them right. If I had 30% of my business being highjacked by someone I would do something to change it. There are too many examples of DZs surviving without Skyride to say that it can't be done.

[Thanatos340 1]

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What's important to establish here, first off, is when did Lee go into business with Skyride? My guess is that it was early on, before they rpoved to be the crooks they are.

I guess I have a little more perspective being from the Atlanta Area and seeing how Skyride came about. The Owners of ASC (before they ever started Skyride) were using websites for Dropzones that didnt exist all over the south east long before they took the program national by starting Skyride. They had proven themselves to unethical long before they started Skyride. This was very common knowledge in this area.

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Second, did Lee in fact step aside when Skyride issues were on the table?

You are correct I don’t know. But I do know that he did not either step down from the board and/or Quit dealing with a Company that had been kicked out for ethics problems.

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but it also shows a resolution to the conflict.

Resolution of the conflict would have been to a) Step Down from the Board and EC or to stop being a Business associate of Skyrides.

Remaining on the board and working with Skyride at the same time is NOT resolving the conflict.

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Lee would stand to lose 30% of his business by breaking away from Skyride.

We dont know that. Keep in mind that Skyride is a parasite organization that doesn’t bring new jumpers in, They intercept customers already looking for legitimate Dropzones, and then sell that business to other DZ`s.

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What seemed like a good marketing plan in the beginning, has turned into 30% of his business being held hostage by crooks who are making up to 20% of the proceeds those cutomers bring in.

any sort of due diligence by the business owner should have alerted them to what this group was doing. In fact thanks to Jans Web-site, it was well documented and available for all to see.

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You do realize that he's a nationally recognized expert in the field of Oncology? That's he has spent his life in the medical field curing cancer?

And maybe he pets puppies and kisses babies. None of this relevant. He may be the greatest guy in the world (And I have no reason to think otherwise other than he made questionable business decisions in doing business with Skyride to begin with) but I think he made a grave error in judgment when he failed to either step down form the executive committee and/or quit dealing with Skyride once this action was taken.

People want to crucify Jan for what they say was an error in judgment on her part by not taking down her website. Why are the same people not making the same calls form someone that clearly PROFITED from Skyride unethical business practices before, during and after this action and yet still remain on the EC?

There is NOTHING personal here.

I dont know Jan, I dont know Lee.
Take the emotion out and you will see that MANY people made huge mistakes, Not just one as the Executive Committee appears to want everyone to believe.

[riggerrob 643]

The coach rating has brought many jumpers into the instructional fold. It is great intermediate step for jumpers wanting an AFF rating.

As far as 'extracting' money from students, how do you know that the extra income is not needed?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Agreed!
USPA Coaching program started with good intentions, but got de-railed by "good old boys" who mangled it beyond recognition.
You should have seen the childish, money-grubbing, short-sighted, narrow-minded POLITICS when Skydive University tried to introduce a similar coaching program to Perris Valley, California!
Hah!
As for "extracting money from junior jumpers?"
I say again Hah!
First of all, AFF/PFF Instructors are so busy they can barely teach basic survival skills to junior jumpers. That still leaves a "skills gap" between AFF graduation and A License. Some one has to fill that gap by coaching junior jumpers on the skills they need to complete their A License.
Why not let coaches teach barrel rolls, packing, etc to junior jumpers?

I usually avoid coach dives for three reasons. First, the junior coaches need the practice if they are ever going to progress to becoming full-fledged instructors.

Secondly, young coaches do a better job than me because they are enthusiastic.

Thirdly, coaching pays a lot less than instructing, and I am already underpaid as an instructor.

[davelepka 4]

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I think that him or any of them that do business with Skyride show that they really do not care about skydiving or the community but instead are worried about the dollar.

I think we all agree that DZOs run DZs for the money. It's not a goldmine, but it is a business, and they are entitled to make a profit. How you make that profit does make a difference, which is where my next point comes in...

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I could give a shit about the corner he is in because we(the people in Georgia) tried to tell these fuckers what they were getting into but they thought we were kidding.

In your area, maybe you knew better, but let's consider a few facts that are not in dispute -

Skyride is a bunch of crooks, who have managed to skirt the law enough that they remain in business despite their clearly unethical business practices.

Skyride manged to twist the law in their favor with the USPA lawsuit. They managed to prevail despite the fact that they should not be in the USPA, and everything said about them was essentailly true.

In looking at these two points, you have to agree that these are smart, sharp people we're dealing with. You don't get away with what they get away with by accident. These are people who understand the game, and have their bases covered.

These are also the type of people who could sell ice cream to eskimos. It's not hard to imagine that they had a slick presentation, and made one hell of a sales call when they we're spreading the Skyride virus.

So I return to my key question, did Lee go into business with them before their business practices were common knowledge? If so, it's hard to hold him responsible for doing so. Look how many other DZOs bought into their horse shit.m they must have been doing something right when they grew Skyride.

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There are too many examples of DZs surviving without Skyride to say that it can't be done.

If you are suggesting that there are DZ that survive without ever doing business with Skyride, I agree. I work at such a DZ.

If you are suggesting that DZ who were once in business with Skyride, have dropped their affiliation with Skyride, and been financially sound in the aftermath, then I would not be so sure. Losing 30% of your income would be a tough hit for many DZ to take.

[davelepka 4]

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Lee would stand to lose 30% of his business by breaking away from Skyride.

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We dont know that. Keep in mind that Skyride is a parasite organization that doesn’t bring new jumpers in, They intercept customers already looking for legitimate Dropzones, and then sell that business to other DZ`s.

I'm not sure I see your point, or if it's any different than mine. I agree that they bring no new business, they have been intercepting business in the Dallas area, and directing it to Skydive Dallas. Breaking away from Skyride will not cause Skyride to intercept any less business, just to funnel that business to another DZ. The end result being the loss of busniess at Skydive Dallas.

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What seemed like a good marketing plan in the beginning, has turned into 30% of his business being held hostage by crooks who are making up to 20% of the proceeds those cutomers bring in.

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any sort of due diligence by the business owner should have alerted them to what this group was doing. In fact thanks to Jans Web-site, it was well documented and available for all to see.

Again, the time line is key here. When he got invovled, and when certian facts came to light make the difference.

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I dont know Jan, I dont know Lee.
Take the emotion out and you will see that MANY people made huge mistakes, Not just one as the Executive Committee appears to want everyone to believe.

Is this a fact, or your impression? Do you know the EC is trying to place 100% of the balme on Jan? Have they published a statement to that end?

We do know that she was VERY outspoken on this issue. We also know that she was told to quiet down with regards to the issue. Her new avatar where she posed for a photo wearing a gag speaks to that.

Is it even possible that she was told, as a representative of the USPA, that her methods were inappropiate, and to cease and desist them?

It's true that the blame falls on everyone, but if the others acted in unison, as a board, like they are supposed to, and Jan went outsdie of that, can you see how that would constitute a loss of her seat?

If the EC or BOD was in agreement for how to proceed, and it turned out they were wrong, do you suggest they disband the entire board?

Can you see how a board member, acting outside of, and against the expressed wishes of the board, should nto be allowed to remain?

[Thanatos340 1]

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Again, the time line is key here. When he got involved, and when certain facts came to light make the difference.

We know the information was available. We also know that when the BOD voted to Kick them out, Lee had to know at that Point that he was dealing with an organization that the USPA felt was unethical. He chose to continue to do business with them even past them being kicked out and still even past them filing suit against the USPA.

Public discussion of the Skyride issue had been going on for years by the time the USPA finally acted. To say that a sitting member of the USPA Executive Committee and DZO was not aware of what skyride was doing is very presumptuous.
It is impossible to say what someone did or did not know.. But we can say with certainty that the information was readily available.
Poor Judgment in my opinion all the way around.

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Do you know the EC is trying to place 100% of the blame on Jan?

She is the only one they have made it known they are trying to get rid of.

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Can you see how a board member, acting outside of, and against the expressed wishes of the board, should nto be allowed to remain?

What would you call being a business associate of people that the BOD just kicked out for ethics problems? You think that might qualify as acting outside of the BOD`s expressed wishes?

[DSE 5]

I submit it would be a lot more productive to see a discussion of the BOD that doesn't keep rooting into Skyride.
OK, Skyride is the evil beast in the skydiving world. I think this is permanently tattooed in the psyche of the DZ.com community.
If Skyride is the only issue that seems to challenge the administration, policy-making, and operations of the BOD, then I'd say they've done a reasonable job.
Is it even possible for the community to drop the single-minded thought process for even one thread, and leave Skyride out of any discussion related to the BOD?
It's somewhat pathetic, and appears to border on hysteria.

[davelepka 4]

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Is it even possible for the community to drop the single-minded thought process for even one thread, and leave Skyride out of any discussion related to the BOD?
It's somewhat pathetic, and appears to border on hysteria.

I agree, but I did leave the thread open to all greivances with the USPA, and these are responses I've gotten so far.

I do think they are fair points, so I'm responding to them, but I'm hopeful that some new issues will come to light in time. The thread is only a few hours old, so let's keep our fingers crossed.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

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So I return to my key question, did Lee go into business with them before their business practices were common knowledge? If so, it's hard to hold him responsible for doing so. Look how many other DZOs bought into their horse shit.m they must have been doing something right when they grew Skyride.

I have no idea when he started doing business with them. My problem is that he continues doing business with them. The fact that he does shows some ethic problems in him.

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If you are suggesting that DZ who were once in business with Skyride, have dropped their affiliation with Skyride, and been financially sound in the aftermath, then I would not be so sure. Losing 30% of your income would be a tough hit for many DZ to take.

I don't believe this 30% figure you are using is realistic. I think it is the exception not the norm.

[davelepka 4]

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I have no idea when he started doing business with them. My problem is that he continues doing business with them. The fact that he does shows some ethic problems in him.


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If you are suggesting that DZ who were once in business with Skyride, have dropped their affiliation with Skyride, and been financially sound in the aftermath, then I would not be so sure. Losing 30% of your income would be a tough hit for many DZ to take.

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I don't believe this 30% figure you are using is realistic. I think it is the exception not the norm.

OK, then what is an acceptable % of loss that a DZ can stand? At what point are the Skyride dollars insignificant enough to not make a difference to the bottom line.

So Lee finds himself in a bad spot with crooks holding hostage a given % of his business. While he is contributing income to the Skyride crew, he is also maintaining a profitable business, protecting his interests, and employing many a good skydiver.

Is the best move business wise to simply sever all ties? What if this threatened the existance of the DZ, and employment of all those people?

Being a board member, he was privy to the actions USPA was attempting to take against them. If they were successful in putting Skyride out of business, Lee's customer base (or his unrestricted access to it) would be restored, and the DZ would continue on.

When the lawsuit arose, I'm sure the BOD was confident that they would prevail, and so again, Lee's best choice for the health of his business and employees was to ride it out, and see if things swung his way. Again, if things had gone the way of the USPA, Lee would all set.

Of course, now that things have gone the way they have, we'll have to see his response. But if you look at the situiaiton from a business perspective, you can see how he might have found himself in the position he was with no ill will intended toward anyone.

Seeing that neither one of us is privy to the details that would clearly indicate the truth of the matter, all we can do is speculate.

Given what we do know, I think I've presented a plausable scenario, that timing and innocent business concerns have shaped his actions.

You've presented another plausable scenario, that he's crooked and in like company when he deals with Skyride.

All you have to do recognize that either situation is plausable, and be open to either one coming out as the truth.

[billvon 3,107]

>Look at the canopy separation BSR that was proposed. Something to
>protect both HP canopy pilots as well as standard Pattern Flyers.
>The cost of implementing this was reason that many DZO`s opposed
>this idea. In the end we get a watered down version.

That is exactly backwards.

The strongest proponent of the proposal was Larry Hill, perhaps the biggest DZO in the country. One of the strongest opponents was Jan Meyer. (Jan - "I do not advocate a BSR to accomplish these goals. There are many flaws in the proposed BSRs that one can drive Mack trucks thru.")

We went to the BOD meeting and presented our proposals. The S+T committee discussed it a lot, but did not come to any conclusions. The Group Membership Committee (the committee that represents those evil drop zones) proposed a better solution - add a statement on the group member pledge that requires separation of landing patterns. This is _stronger_ than a BSR, since every DZO group member in the country signs that pledge, and the new requirement is on that piece of paper.

I was pretty happy with that outcome - and it was the DZO's that helped it happen.

[airtwardo 7]

The S+T committee discussed it a lot, but did not come to any conclusions.

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Is that the norm?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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[billvon 3,107]

>Is that the norm?

In my experience with USPA, major changes are not made at the first meeting they are proposed at.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

You make it way more complicated then it has to be. My business has suffered because I have refused to do certain things and do business with certain people. The fact the someone is willing to do business with crooks to save their business or save me a buck on jump tickets is not a noble thing.

[skydived19006 4]

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So I return to my key question, did Lee go into business with them before their business practices were common knowledge? If so, it's hard to hold him responsible for doing so. Look how many other DZOs bought into their horse shit.m they must have been doing something right when they grew Skyride.

I took Skyride certificates for 6 months in 2004, and understood the deceitful practices they employed within a month or so of starting with them. I didn’t quit for another 4 month due to my greed, but eventually the “shit taste” it left in my mouth over weighed the money. I say this to point out that regardless of when Lee started trading with Skyride, he knew exactly the type of people he was sharing his bed with within a very short time period. That would have been the time to have stopped, but his DZ to this day continues to trade with Skyride, so in my opinion Lee has questionable business ethics. He may not be doing the deceit directly, but by accepting the certificates he’s enabling it, and through association, and support is just about as guilty as Ben and Cary.

By the way, I lost zero business by dropping Skyride. I increased my advertising/exposure and have since increased my student traffic by over 50%. That all said, I don’t have competing DZs in the near area, and no DZs within 150 miles who accept Skyride (have to go to Missouri to find one).

Martin DZO
Air Capital Drop Zone
Wichita Kansas

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[lauraliscious 0]

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The Group Membership Committee (the committee that represents those evil drop zones) proposed a better solution - add a statement on the group member pledge that requires separation of landing patterns. This is _stronger_ than a BSR, since every DZO group member in the country signs that pledge, and the new requirement is on that piece of paper.

I have a question about the process of adding things to the GM pledge. When does the new addition (or change to the pledge) apply to the DZ's that are Group Members since it wasn't in the pledge when they initially signed it? When they renew their membership each year?

I hate to keep bringing up Skyride as an example, but I *heard* that because the statement about ethics was added to the GM pledge after the "Skyride" DZ's had signed the pledge, that the expectation of GM DZ's to conduct their business in an "ethical manner" did not apply retroactively. I would love to hear that this is misinformation, and that the USPA expects the Skyride DZ's to conduct business in an ethical manner, since they have been reinstated, indicated by the Group Member Pledge.

Enemiga Rodriguez, PMS #369, OrFun #25, Team Dirty Sanchez #116, Pelt Head #29, Muff #4091

[chuteless 1]

Thats like saying what is good for Haliburton is good for the USA

[billvon 3,107]

> Thats like saying what is good for Haliburton is good for the USA

More like what's good for Halliburton is good for oil industry workers. (Note - please do NOT turn this into a Speaker's Corner thread.)

[Amazon 7]

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By the way, I lost zero business by dropping Skyride. I increased my advertising/exposure and have since increased my student traffic by over 50%. That all said, I don’t have competing DZs in the near area, and no DZs within 150 miles who accept Skyride (have to go to Missouri to find one).

I truely do not ever want to have that kind of taste in my mouth. I am now actively trying to discourage ANYONE I jump with from jumping at a DZ that is in bed with Skyride.

I am trying to get some other computer savy people together to produce a program that will explain in great detail how to market their DZ's so they can effectively compete against Skyride on the internet... If you cant ban the son of a bitches we can show people how to outcompete them... I truyely want to remove the arguement... " If I dont take the Skyride certificates.. they will just send them to the other dropzones in the area."

[tdog 0]

I vote.... To the left of the post, where it says your name, picture, licence, etc... There should be a "skyXXXX" count. Everytime you say this word online, it adds one to the count. Once you get to 10, you are banned for a week. 20 bans you for a month. 100 bans you forever. 1000 (although you can't get past 100) - pulls your reserve handle when you are not looking.

Why does every argument about the USPA have to go into this.... Crap happened in 2007. Move on. Make your DZ a better place. Increase safety. Increase training..... Stop giving a crap about that company. It is likely most of you never have been to a DZ that takes their certs, or ever met someone who has given them money. If your heart is really in it, go to your DZO and thank him for not taking the certs, or telling him you all will buy him Pizza if he will stop. See why he does take them. Build a better marketing plan.

Stop bitching here...

And back to the thread at hand... Get rid of the group membership program and replace it with the group inspection program. Those who pass get EARNED advertising rights, instead of purchased advertising rights. And, as with anything earned, the USPA can publish guidelines that will weed out the trash - if they have the balls to do it. There is very little trash really, just some DZs and resale programs.... The rest is good.

Oh ya... Go jump too. It frees the mind.