Group Member Program Pros/Cons

[skydived19006 4]

I am DZO of a current USPA Group Member DZ, but that may very well change in the near future.

I see the conflict of the USPA trying to be both a individual member organization, and a trade organization. I also do not see the value of the Group Member program. I’d like to see comments both as to what the purpose and advantage of the Group Member program are, and why you think it would be better if it no longer existed.

I now advertise that I’m a “USPA Group Member”, but could just as easily say that we use only “USPA Certified Instructors.”

I asked two Regional Directors this morning in an email if they would have an item added to the next BOD agenda for the elimination of the GM program.

Martin Myrtle
Air Capital Drop Zone
Wichita Ks.

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[Thanatos340 1]

What does it cost you as a DZO to be a Group Member and what are the Benefits of being a Group Member?

[DougH 270]

I thought that the price varied based on the volume and airpower of the dropzone. I don't think a 182 weekend dropzone spends the same ammount as Larry Hill.

I am interested to hear if this is correct.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[Thanatos340 1]

Replacing the GM program with a DZ Inspection Program sounds like a great idea on the surface.

Lots of question would need to be addressed such as:
Who would pay for the inspections?
What would be included in the inspections?
Who would be doing the inspections?
What additional Liabilities would the UPSA be opening themselves up to in "Inspecting/Certifying" DZ in the case of an accident at that DZ?

This would be a HUGE undertaking by the USPA. Would the general membership be willing to pay additional Dues to help cover the administration costs of an Inspection program?

Right now, Anyone cay "Buy" a USPA GM Seal and sign a Pledge. The idea that that Seal would have to be earned sounds great but the devil is in the details.

[pilotdave 0]

Prices are on the application:

http://www.uspa.org/publications/form.pdf/GMInitialApp0208.pdf

Basically...
182 DZ: $200
Bigger DZ: $400

Edit: Not to change the subject, but the application says:

  Quote

In applying for Group Membership, you will be agreeing to the terms listed below.
Please read them carefully.
Failure to comply with the terms may result in removal from the Group Membership Program by
USPA, forfeiture of fees and cancellation of benefits and services provided by USPA.
As the owner/operator of the school, club, or center listed on the reverse side of this application, I hereby apply for Group
Membership and in so doing agree to follow the terms of the Group Member Pledge below (initial each line):
GROUP MEMBER PLEDGE
[ __ ] Comply with the USPA Basic Safety Requirements (BSRs), which include compliance with the Federal Aviation
Regulations relevant to skydiving operations, including aircraft operations.
[ __ ] Establish and disseminate landing procedures that will include separation of high-speed landings and normal landings.
[ __ ] Support USPA promotional programs at the drop zone. *
[ __ ] Ensure all employees and staff of the Group Member are appropriately qualified and trained in accordance with
the SIM and (where applicable) hold USPA ratings and/or FAA licenses and certifications commensurate with their
duties.
[ __ ] Require introductory or regular individual membership of:
1. all licensed U.S. skydivers (a skydiver is considered a student until licensed)
2. non-resident foreign nationals who do not have proof of membership in their national aeroclub.
[ __ ] Agree to abide by USPA’s Skydiving Service Code of Conduct (below). *
[ __ ] Include USPA in the Group Member hold-harmless release, consistent with state laws. *
(U.S. DZs only. New applicants, please provide a copy of the waiver with this application.)
(* Wind tunnel applicants need only initial these statements.)
I further understand that granting of such membership or any renewal thereof is purely at the discretion of USPA. USPA may make
its decision to grant or renew an application based upon information and sources that, at its sole discretion, it finds appropriate. I
further understand that either party retains the right, on 30 days notice, to terminate my Group Membership for any reason whatsoever.
Should I decide to terminate such membership, I will not be entitled to any refund of initial application fees or renewal fees.
I certify that the above is true and correct to the best of my knowledge.

Guess we know that doesn't hold much water, huh?

Dave

[peek 21]

  Quote

I’d like to see comments both as to what the purpose and advantage of the Group Member program are...

Section 1 of the Group Member manual:
http://www.uspa.org/publications/manuals.pdf/gmmanual.sec1.pdf

I think every USPA member needs to familiarize themselves with this information and consider whether the GM program benefits them.

Edited: Oh, I almost forgot. One of the "advantages" not listed is that your drop zone can hold USPA instructional course without having to pay the $600 per course "fine" (as I call it) for not being a GM drop zone.

That's right. If you are not a USPA GM drop zone, your USPA (individual) members cannot attend a course at your DZ without paying a "fine". But don't worry, your DZO will still schedule the course, they will just pass this fee on to the course candidates.

[shermanator 4]

1-2:G .. interesting.

CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08
CSA #720

[skydived19006 4]

The Code of Conduct can not be enforced, as proved very recently, so it is irrelevant.

The "free" advertising is of very little value.

I don't see why USPA could not still appoint S&TAs, and handle everything else through them.

The rating courses could be done anywhere a Course Director so chooses and the jumps done anywhere there's lift to make it happen.

We are all still bound by the FARs, local, state, and federal laws, so there's your "business practice", aircraft, and airspace enforcement.

Funny to me that as a GM we're granted use of the "Group Member Logo", but not the USPA Logo.

I see no compelling argument for the GM program, and with the history of the recent settlement, quite a bit of evidence for the GM program to end.

What did we do for the 25 +/- years before the GM program was instituted?

Martin
AC/DZ

  Quote

  Quote

I’d like to see comments both as to what the purpose and advantage of the Group Member program are...

Section 1 of the Group Member manual:
http://www.uspa.org/publications/manuals.pdf/gmmanual.sec1.pdf

I think every USPA member needs to familiarize themselves with this information and consider whether the GM program benefits them.

Edited: Oh, I almost forgot. One of the "advantages" not listed is that your drop zone can hold USPA instructional course without having to pay the $600 per course "fine" (as I call it) for not being a GM drop zone.

That's right. If you are not a USPA GM drop zone, your USPA (individual) members cannot attend a course at your DZ without paying a "fine". But don't worry, your DZO will still schedule the course, they will just pass this fee on to the course candidates.

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[chutejump 0]

Martin

I have struggled with the GM program for some time! I dropped my membership a few years ago, but found myself with the decision to either pass along the non GM fine of $600.00 after a ratings course, or accept the loss myself by renewing my GM, I chose to renew under duress, (a $200.00 loss as opposed to a $600.00 loss) I sent a letter to all the Board members with my complaint and renewal under duress, and a couple replied (which is normal) with the I had no idea explanation.
Benefits to be a GM? I don't see many! Advertisement in Parachutist? Sure! I get a Fuck load of new students, and jumpers whom read Parachutist! The ability to advertise to experienced jumpers is no service or benefit to me! Negative factors! They take my membership money, piss it away on poor decisions with law suits as a result. Create limitations of whom can jump at, and how I can operate my business, etc.
I receive the same support with reference to government relations, and the other services the organization gives with my individual membership! I should not be required to may extra money for the same service, and the organization the ability to exercise control or limitations to my operation.
In short there should be "NO GM MEMBERSHIP PROGRAM" I know this will not happen, as it was explained to me the first order of an organization is to make certain the ability for it to survive! The EC that runs the GM program will not give this up! Canceling the GM program would eliminate the need for a EC group to control the GMs.

[chutejump 0]

  Quote

Replacing the GM program with a DZ Inspection Program sounds like a great idea on the surface.

Lots of question would need to be addressed such as:
Who would pay for the inspections?
What would be included in the inspections?
Who would be doing the inspections?
What additional Liabilities would the UPSA be opening themselves up to in "Inspecting/Certifying" DZ in the case of an accident at that DZ?

This would be a HUGE undertaking by the USPA. Would the general membership be willing to pay additional Dues to help cover the administration costs of an Inspection program?

Right now, Anyone cay "Buy" a USPA GM Seal and sign a Pledge. The idea that that Seal would have to be earned sounds great but the devil is in the details.

The DZ inspection program does not and will not work! It was created many years ago, and to date USPA has not been able to get it off of the ground! Why you ask? First let my say there are very few that could pass the requirements of the original draft! Next it would be very time consuming and costly! Whom do you hire! (and pay) to run the program? travel, perform the inspections? Some said let the DZOs pay (sure why not! we pay for everything else!) yea! like I'am going to pay several hundred dollars to an organization to come and point out all the deficencies they feel exists in my operation, the benefit? a sticker, or post in the mag, that says I passed this year? Does this bring me more customers? Does this let me charge a higher rate? Does this make my operation better? Does this make my operation safer? The answer is NO to all of the above! Good idea, if it were free, but this dog won't hunt!

[Hooknswoop 19]

  Quote

The DZ inspection program does not and will not work! It was created many years ago, and to date USPA has not been able to get it off of the ground! Why you ask?

Because DZO's don't want it and DZO's run USPA.

  Quote

First let my say there are very few that could pass the requirements of the original draft!

Exactly why it shoud be implemented, so that DZO's get their act together and meet the minumum saftey stabdards.

  Quote

Next it would be very time consuming and costly! Whom do you hire! (and pay) to run the program? travel, perform the inspections? Some said let the DZOs pay (sure why not! we pay for everything else!)

A couple of people were trained as inspectors. You hire them. USPA will save money by dropping the GM, apply those funds to the Inspection Program. Suppliment it with membership fess and now the membership is actually getting something for their money that they can use.

  Quote

yea! like I'am going to pay several hundred dollars to an organization to come and point out all the deficencies they feel exists in my operation, the benefit? a sticker, or post in the mag, that says I passed this year? Does this bring me more customers? Does this let me charge a higher rate? Does this make my operation better? Does this make my operation safer? The answer is NO to all of the above! Good idea, if it were free, but this dog won't hunt!

The answer is YES to all the above. If you don't do the 100-hour on the airplane, you know that the Inspector will probably find that out and that will be in their report and jumpers will be able to see it. Currently, how do jumpers know if a DZ they go to is doing the things they should be doing? DZO's can and do get away with anything since no one checks up on them.

Derek

[chutejump 0]

Re: [chutejump] Group Member Program Pros/Cons [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Quote
Because DZO's don't want it and DZO's run USPA.

OK! I'll give you that one!

Quote
Exactly why it shoud be implemented, so that DZO's get their act together and meet the minumum saftey stabdards.

And how would you enforce this action? If there were no GM program? Do you form the USPA Drop Zone Police Agency? And If they didn't pass do you fime them? Remember this is an membership organization! You can make them be a member or comply!

Quote
A couple of people were trained as inspectors. You hire them. USPA will save money by dropping the GM, apply those funds to the Inspection Program. Suppliment it with membership fess and now the membership is actually getting something for their money that they can use.

Hummm? Ok! let say you charge $400.00 to each DZ for a inspection X 300 DZs thats $120,000.00 WOW!, and you split the responsibility between each inspector, 150 DZs per employee, thats 3 DZs per week they visit, 50 weeks per year to inspect! Hummm? a descent inspection and travel time with report would take at least 3 days minimum! that make 9 day weeks?, Travel cost per DZ if you preplan by air $350.00, Rental car $65.00 a day, Food and beverage $50.00 a day, Room $70.00 a day, Communication, (cell, E-mail I-phone etc.) $20.00 a day, and lets say you can inspect in 2 days with one travel day, so the average cost per inspection would be $830.00. You charge $400.00 so you are only $430.00 in the hole and you haven't considered paying the inspectors yet! Sounds reasonable with USPA's current business decisions.

Quote
The answer is YES to all the above. If you don't do the 100-hour on the airplane, you know that the Inspector will probably find that out and that will be in their report and jumpers will be able to see it. Currently, how do jumpers know if a DZ they go to is doing the things they should be doing? DZO's can and do get away with anything since no one checks up on them.

Most jumpers wouldn't ask to see a report! Most don't care what the FAA says, they are interested in altitude, and only if the aircraft gets them there, what happens after they exit is none of their concern! If you are a club with unpaid pilots you operate under part 91, and most do not do 100 hour inspections! Most jumpers don't know or care if the DZ they are at is doing things right! The programs, equipment, aircraft and staff are a ethics decision made by the DZO, they only get away with nything until something goes wrong! Than during the FAA investigation the shit hits the fan! And everybody knows what they "Were" getting away with!

Again great idea! But you can't sell or fund it! and most people don't want it!


Derek

Think

[skydived19006 4]

If half a dozen people were elected to the BOD either as National Directors, or as Regional Directors, and they replaced a few of the entrenched, and GM supporting members, it could be turned over. You have my vote Tom!

  Quote

In short there should be "NO GM MEMBERSHIP PROGRAM" I know this will not happen, as it was explained to me the first order of an organization is to make certain the ability for it to survive! The EC that runs the GM program will not give this up! Canceling the GM program would eliminate the need for a EC group to control the GMs.

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[skydived19006 4]

  Quote

Because DZO's don't want it and DZO's run USPA.

Derek

Why is it that as you say "DZOs run USPA?" I'll venture a guess; it's because of apathy on the typical skydiver's part. A vast majority of fun jumpers want to have nothing to do with the politics behind the USPA, or for that matter even the politics found at every single DZ in the world. They go skydiving in order to get away from politics, and the day to day bull shit in their 9 to 5 lives. DZOs have more of a vested interest in the sport, and therefore the USPA.

Also, the absence of a Group Member program would change neither of these assertions. DZOs would more than likely still have a large influence on the USPA BOD. And fun jumpers would still be apathetic.

Why is it that you think that DZOs like and would be interested in perpetuating the GM program? Tommy, and I are both DZOs, and we're not exactly fans of it? Especially in light of recent events.

As far as the DZ Inspection Program goes, what use would it be if there were no teeth behind it? If they inspected me, didn’t like what they found, and tried to discipline me in any way, I’d sue!!! They’d end up giving me a bunch of money, a lifetime membership, mailing out “apologies” to every individual member, etc. As an outcome of the emotional reaction of the BOD, Ben and Cary affectively cut the nuts out of the USPA GM Program. I’m just imagining a set of glass testicles engraved with “USPA” hanging from the “rearview mirror” of every ASC airplane. Wouldn’t surprise me if the USPA members even paid for these trinkets as part of the settlement.

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[chutejump 0]

  Quote

  Quote

Because DZO's don't want it and DZO's run USPA.

Derek

As far as the DZ Inspection Program goes, what use would it be if there were no teeth behind it? If they inspected me, didn’t like what they found, and tried to discipline me in any way, I’d sue!!! They’d end up giving me a bunch of money, a lifetime membership, mailing out “apologies” to every individual member, etc. As an outcome of the emotional reaction of the BOD, Ben and Cary affectively cut the nuts out of the USPA GM Program. I’m just imagining a set of glass testicles engraved with “USPA” hanging from the “rearview mirror” of every ASC airplane. Wouldn’t surprise me if the USPA members even paid for these trinkets as part of the settlement.

You hit the proverbial nail on the head! "The you can't do that" law suit door has been opened to the world!! Hence the current actions by the organization.

Now that I have decided to not renew! I plan on taking the renewal money saved and having my testicles polished (with consideration that DZOs whom stay GM members will have the new glass ones) and Tattooed with not uspa's! I wouldn't want to feel left out by my non renewal decision!

I Know! I Know! why not go for the trick new glass one's like all the remaining GM DZO's!
I've grown attached to them over the years and we have shared some very memorable times together and I just can't bring myself to let them go to support the current administration.
Call it a "Ethical" decision!

[Hooknswoop 19]

  Quote

And how would you enforce this action? If there were no GM program? Do you form the USPA Drop Zone Police Agency? And If they didn't pass do you fime them? Remember this is an membership organization! You can make them be a member or comply!

No enforcement necessary. Their inspection report on USPA's website is all that is needed. Then a jumper can make an informed decision about where they jump. If a DZ does not want to participate or scores poorly, then when a jumper checks their inspection report, they can see the results and decide for themselves. DZ's that perform better on the inspection will have that reflected in the report and jumpers will tend to jump at the DZ's that score higher on the inspection. That is the DZO's incentive to do well on the inspection, if they don't they will probably lose business.

  Quote

Hummm? Ok! let say you charge $400.00 to each DZ for a inspection X 300 DZs thats $120,000.00 WOW!, and you split the responsibility between each inspector, 150 DZs per employee, thats 3 DZs per week they visit, 50 weeks per year to inspect! Hummm? a descent inspection and travel time with report would take at least 3 days minimum! that make 9 day weeks?, Travel cost per DZ if you preplan by air $350.00, Rental car $65.00 a day, Food and beverage $50.00 a day, Room $70.00 a day, Communication, (cell, E-mail I-phone etc.) $20.00 a day, and lets say you can inspect in 2 days with one travel day, so the average cost per inspection would be $830.00. You charge $400.00 so you are only $430.00 in the hole and you haven't considered paying the inspectors yet! Sounds reasonable with USPA's current business decisions.

You inspect DZ's on a surprise basis, chosen randomly by computer, each DZ would get an inspection every few years. They could pay for an inspection sooner if they made improvements and wanted that reflected in their inspection report.

  Quote

Most jumpers wouldn't ask to see a report!

They wouldn't have to ask, it would only be a click away on their computer.

  Quote

The programs, equipment, aircraft and staff are a ethics decision made by the DZO, they only get away with nything until something goes wrong!

Exactly why their should be an inspection program, jumpers can't know if a DZO is cutting corners until it is too late.

  Quote

Again great idea! But you can't sell or fund it! and most people don't want it!

Who is most people?

Derek

[doogie 0]

How come the AOPA only represents pilots/aircraft owners? I'll bet they already understand the COI issues that USPA is in the process of learning, oops, I mean, ignoring. ;-)

[turtlespeed 226]

  Quote

  Quote

Most jumpers wouldn't ask to see a report!

They wouldn't have to ask, it would only be a click away on their computer.

How about a mandatory posting of the results up to date - like a safety bulletin.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

• Quote

[skydived19006 4]

Well, I don't think that I've seen any real pros for the GM Program.

Anyone....., Anyone......,

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[chutejump 0]

  Quote

No enforcement necessary. Their inspection report on USPA's website is all that is needed. Then a jumper can make an informed decision about where they jump. If a DZ does not want to participate or scores poorly, then when a jumper checks their inspection report, they can see the results and decide for themselves. DZ's that perform better on the inspection will have that reflected in the report and jumpers will tend to jump at the DZ's that score higher on the inspection. That is the DZO's incentive to do well on the inspection, if they don't they will probably lose business.

??? You actually believe that jumpers would less likely to jump at a DZ with lower scores? I would lay serious cash that if I were to operate a DZ with the lowest inspection score, but! I were to offer the aminities, and cheap lift tickets, that I would be as busy as I wanted to be! A USPA inspection score will never outweigh what jumpers want, CHEAP ALTITUDE!

  Quote

You inspect DZ's on a surprise basis, chosen randomly by computer, each DZ would get an inspection every few years. They could pay for an inspection sooner if they made improvements and wanted that reflected in their inspection report.

Sure! I dare you to find support from DZOs that would welcome a random, inspection program administered by USPA

  Quote

They wouldn't have to ask, it would only be a click away on their computer.

So I take it that you actually believe everything you read on the internet? and make decisions with regard to safety by what you read??? I guess they sell those penis enlargement pills to somebody???

  Quote

Exactly why their should be an inspection program, jumpers can't know if a DZO is cutting corners until it is too late.

Hummm? and a blurb on a USPA web site would solve safety concerns? and make the DZ better and safer from the inspection? So after your inspection you as the DZO know you are safe for a reasonable time in the future, and you dial back on the less safety orientated uspa DZ, the uspa blurb sayes you are OK! or do you ask the jumpers to rat out the DZO inspection offenders? Hummm? so now no one trusts no one, kind of like it is with uspa now? and I am sure that uspa would never be named in a major lawsuit should a fatality occur at a DZ that just recently passed a inspection???? It would be easier and cheaper to just hang a target around the organizations neck!

  Quote

Who is most people?

I said it already, there are 300 plus DZs in the US, find support for a program like you are offering! If you think uspa is having problems now with membership, and the GM program, than convence uspa to implement an inspection program like this, members and GM DZs will become scarce! Kind of like the city you live in having the power to randomly inspecting your home for living conditions, or health care violations, etc, the public wants less big brother, not to sign a GM pledge which allows uspa to walk through "your house" when ever they please.

[Hooknswoop 19]

  Quote

??? You actually believe that jumpers would less likely to jump at a DZ with lower scores?

Yes.

  Quote

Sure! I dare you to find support from DZOs that would welcome a random, inspection program administered by USPA

I don't think DZO's will support it at all. That is what makes it attractive. It isn't for DZO's, it is for USPA members.

  Quote

So I take it that you actually believe everything you read on the internet? and make decisions with regard to safety by what you read??? I guess they sell those penis enlargement pills to somebody???

Not sure how you made the leap from USPA posting the inspection reports on their web page to penis enlargements, but whatever. I don't believe everything on the internet, but I found through experience that somethings are reliable. Google maps has yet to lead me to a penis enlargement facility in lieu of the movie theater I was intending to go to.

  Quote

Hummm? and a blurb on a USPA web site would solve safety concerns? and make the DZ better and safer from the inspection? So after your inspection you as the DZO know you are safe for a reasonable time in the future, and you dial back on the less safety orientated uspa DZ, the uspa blurb sayes you are OK! or do you ask the jumpers to rat out the DZO inspection offenders? Hummm? so now no one trusts no one, kind of like it is with uspa now? and I am sure that uspa would never be named in a major lawsuit should a fatality occur at a DZ that just recently passed a inspection???? It would be easier and cheaper to just hang a target around the organizations neck!

Ya, I guess you are right, why should USPA serve it's members by providing a service that is sorely lacking right now. Maybe the FAA should do it. Then it would have real teeth, stiff fines, grounding airplanes, putting DZ's out of business. That would change things. Wouldn't cost DZO's or USPA members anything either, tax dollars would do it. Of course the FAA doesn't really know anything about DZ's and are notoriously difficult to deal with. Another solution is the status quo, jumpers have to simply trust that a DZO is ethical. Of course we've seen how that works out.

  Quote

I said it already, there are 300 plus DZs in the US, find support for a program like you are offering! If you think uspa is having problems now with membership, and the GM program, than convence uspa to implement an inspection program like this, members and GM DZs will become scarce! Kind of like the city you live in having the power to randomly inspecting your home for living conditions, or health care violations, etc, the public wants less big brother, not to sign a GM pledge which allows uspa to walk through "your house" when ever they please.

DZO's won't like it, or at least the DZO's that aren't ethical and like the fact that they can get away with anything the way things are now. Members will like it since they can get hard information about a DZ they are thinking about jumping at.

Are you against having the FAA inspect airlines? Or would you rather have them follow the DZ model where it is up to the company to decide how safe they want to be? How well do you think that would work out? What do you think would happen to safety standards if the FAA operated on the honor system? Why aren't people demanding that the FAA's airline inspection efforts be stopped to save their tax money? My guess is that people like knowing that the FAA is ensuring that the minimum safety standards are being met, since they cannot do it for themselves.

Houses are not a place of business. Restaurants is a much better analogy. The health department inspect restaurants. They must pass to operate. That is tougher that what I suggest. Put the report out there and jumpers can make an informed choice about what DZ deserves their money and can be trusted. Is it a perfect solution? Nope. But I'm sure the health department doesn't catch everything either.

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

  Quote

How about a mandatory posting of the results up to date - like a safety bulletin.

Exactly what I am saying. USPA could simply post the report on their website. If a DZ refused to be inspected, which is their right to do, that would be posted as well. My guess is that good DZ's would want to be inspected, especially if they knew their competition wasn't up to snuff. What a terrific marketing tool, "We scored much higher than our competition by USPA's inspection program. You can confirm that by going to www.USPA.org and see for yourself." Or, "Our competition refused to even be inspected, draw your own conclusions."

Derek

[chutejump 0]

  Quote

Yes.

OK! Notice how you are the only person standing in the room?

  Quote

I don't think DZO's will support it at all. That is what makes it attractive. It isn't for DZO's, it is for USPA members.

Hummm? Let's see we lower the qualification standards for the AFF courses, We created a new basically unusable rating, (coach) We tell GMs whom can and cannot jump at their DZs, We don't enforce the GM pledge (except on a selective basis), we say we are in support of all DZ with and airport access fund, (if you happen to be one of the few chosen for select funding) We decide that there is a problem with high performance landings and we force the responsibility, risk, enforcement upon GMs with their renewal signature. and we do all of this in the name of the members.

  Quote

Not sure how you made the leap from USPA posting the inspection reports on their web page to penis enlargements, but whatever.

Because both items will offer the same value!

  Quote

I don't believe everything on the internet, but I found through experience that somethings are reliable. Google maps has yet to lead me to a penis enlargement facility in lieu of the movie theater I was intending to go to.

Hummm? you must have been looking at the map upside down!

  Quote

Ya, I guess you are right, why should USPA serve it's members by providing a service that is sorely lacking right now.

If the average jumper visits a DZ and can not make a decision as to the standards, safety, aircraft, and staff whom work there, than they need more training. They need to learn to assume some responsibility for making their own personal decisions. I see your approach as just another way to lower the bar to lead in more sheep.

  Quote

Maybe the FAA should do it. Then it would have real teeth, stiff fines, grounding airplanes, putting DZ's out of business. That would change things. Wouldn't cost DZO's or USPA members anything either, tax dollars would do it.

I am OK with that! at least you would know whom the players are, and you wouldn't need to refer to a web site to make your decisions!

  Quote

Of course the FAA doesn't really know anything about DZ's and are notoriously difficult to deal with.

Hummm? I have a great relationship with the FAA for many years! I would dare to say that if you are having difficulties in dealing with them you are fucking up!

  Quote

Another solution is the status quo, jumpers have to simply trust that a DZO is ethical. Of course we've seen how that works out.

Hummm? status quo? OH! you mean like we have now with uspa? and their current ethical behavior?? And of course we "seen" how that worked out!

  Quote

Are you against having the FAA inspect airlines?

Let see? with consideration that their operations are subsidized with government money I see it only prudent to protect a business investment in the transportation industry.

  Quote

Or would you rather have them follow the DZ model where it is up to the company to decide how safe they want to be?

That would weed out the lesser operations very quickly! with the law suits and fatalities! Works for me!

  Quote

How well do you think that would work out?

See my last statement!

  Quote

What do you think would happen to safety standards if the FAA operated on the honor system?

Last time I checked, Part 91 general aviation rules are very much the honor system, they state you must have an annual inspection on your aircraft, but are not required to nore make it policy to come by your home yearly to check your paperwork?

  Quote

Why aren't people demanding that the FAA's airline inspection efforts be stopped to save their tax money?

Did you miss a meeting? Last time I checked most of the operations inspectors said that they visit the carriers half as much as they use to because of budget cuts by the government to save money?

  Quote

My guess is that people like knowing that the FAA is ensuring that the minimum safety standards are being met, since they cannot do it for themselves.

Sure they do! It is much easier to place blame and responsibility after an accident upon someone else if you are not required to assume responsibility and make a decision for yourself, it is the very basic premise that the legal system uses to fuel all of the unnecessary and unfounded lawsuit that we see weekly in the court system! Did we say Status Quo earlier?

  Quote

Houses are not a place of business. Restaurants is a much better analogy. The health department inspect restaurants. They must pass to operate. That is tougher that what I suggest.

Again! See my last statement!

  Quote

Put the report out there and jumpers can make an informed choice about what DZ deserves their money and can be trusted.

Whom chooses what a DZ deserves, or if they can be trusted? the membership, uspa? Was there an election that I missed that now empowers outside entities to make business decisions with regard to commerce? Oh! Yea! uspa already did that one and got sued for it!

  Quote

Is it a perfect solution? Nope. But I'm sure the health department doesn't catch everything either.

They catch much less with free meals and cash bribes! seems to be Status Quo!!!

Derek

[CDRINF 1]

***A USPA inspection score will never outweigh what jumpers want, CHEAP ALTITUDE!***

I have to agree with Tom on that one. GM or not makes no difference, skydivers want to jump and inspections won't change anything. A friend of mine just told me that the ASC bubbas were looking at opening a new Otter equipped DZ in an area that has a number of jumpers but no turbine DZ. I pointed out that these were the same shysters that run Skyride and all he said was "Yeah, but it's an Otter!!!!"

CDR

[Thanatos340 1]

I agree with most of what you are saying. That is why I posted to original questions, but to play devils advocate here..

Similar auditing and/or certifications are done in many industries. Look at how much companies will spend on ISO certification. I would envision a USPA Certification program something similar. A set of Standards that are established. If A DZ wants to advertise as USPA Certified DZ, They would have to meet these standards and have this verified.
This would make a Difference to Tandems and students that did a little research (The REAL money for a DZ). It would also be a huge service to Regular Jumpers when they are looking at where to jump. Currently DZ`s only sign a Pledge to follow the guidelines but there is no verification that are doing so. And even when they are NOT following that Pledge, We still cant kick them out as we just discovered.

In the end the Jumpers WILL be ones paying for this one way or another. Either through higher Jump ticket Prices or through Higher membership fees. An Increase of $10 per year for the general Membership would provide $350,000 per year to fund the program. Honestly I don’t know if that would be enough. I suspect this program would cost more than that which could be offset by DZ`s paying about what they pay now for Group Membership. DZ`s would either meet the requirements or they would not.

I work most of my life in Industrial Manufacturing, In almost every Manufacturing plant I ever worked at we had at least one "certifying" organization that came in to do audits/inspections on a regular basis. The plants all voluntarily paid for these inspections/certifications. It was always a pain to deal with but the benefit was there. It forced us to maintain a standard and general helped our efficiently and profitability in the end.

Would the General Membership be willing to pay for this? I wouldn’t mind an extra $10 to $20 a Year for such a program but I can already hear oothers that have a heart attack about ANYTHING that cost them money even if they are the ones that would benefit from it.