Does keeping your reserve handles increase risk?

[tdog 0]

I have found other threads where the emergency procedures question; “To throw or not to throw the handles” is discussed. In a question that wide, the answers seemed to be that there is nothing shameful with throwing the handles, but keeping them, if nothing else, is less expensive.

But, I have a much more narrow question. Does keeping your handles increase the chance of a double mal by having a bunch of 3’ cables flying around on reserve deployment? If so, are any kinds of malfunctions more dangerous to keep the handles than others?


I understand some emergency scenarios are messier than others, so for the sake of the question, lets assume we are talking about the more “average” cutaways where the main is not already entangled with something and is expected to disconnect and fly away properly. If you are tangled with your main or someone else’s main, I understand all bets are off.

I am hoping to solicit responses from people with many years of experience on dzs where they have seen many cutaways first hand either on their own rigs or from the ground looking up. In other words, do you have any educational “one time at skydiving camp” stories???

Note – I am NOT considering changing my own procedures by your response, but I want to see what others are thinking around the world to have an educated discussion with my local friends and instructors.

[mouth 0]

My last ride was a high speed one and I kept them, but later dropped my cutaway pillow trying to untangle my main PC from my reserve risers. I managed to stick the D ring in my mough and landed with it there. Dropping the pillow was not a big deal other than the cost. I was WAY mor eworried about getting my toggles free on my reserve.

--
Hot Mama
At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit.

[riggerrob 643]

Slightly.

There are three reasons for throwing handles during malfunctions.

The first reason dates back to the days of belly-mounted reserves, when a 4-pin main ripcord might have interfered with a deploying reserve.
The second reason relates to how far you pull the handles. If you only do a sissified, limp-wristed, half-hearted, half-pull, you may not pull your ripcord far enough to dislodge the pins, like my IAD student back in 1984. Throwing handles is one way to teach students to pull handles far enough that they will accomplish something.
A third reason involves the risk of electrocution if a student lands in wires and his steel cable connects two wires.
That is why we teach students that handles are cheap, but funerals are expensive.

[skydiverjerry 0]

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\“To throw or not to throw the handles” is discussed.

but keeping them, if nothing else, is less expensive.

in a situation such as you sugest replacing a set of handles is less expensive than replacing a life.

Does keeping your handles increase the chance of a double mal by having a bunch of 3’ cables flying around on reserve deployment?

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any change from the norm increases risk, with over 100 mals test jumps) i have kept all but one handle with no problems. this boils down to experience. the easy answere is ditch the handles. who cares about the cost. even flapping around the chance of 3 cables interfereing with the deplyment of the reserve are slim but there non the less.

If so, are any kinds of malfunctions more dangerous to keep the handles than others?

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good question, once you have cut away all mals are the same, if you are close to the ground the most important thing is to land safly under the reserve.


I understand some emergency scenarios are messier than others, so for the sake of the question, lets assume we are talking about the more “average” cutaways where the main is not already entangled with something and is expected to disconnect and fly away properly. If you are tangled with your main or someone else’s main, I understand all bets are off.

er help
ok as i understand it your asking about if the main is entangled with the body after an unstable deployment hard one and rare, the priority is to get a canopy above your head.

in canopy relative work the high man tells the low man to cutaway or the low man clears his canopie then tells the high man that he is going to cut away
once he has cleared any wrap.

altitude awarness is important here.

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Note – I am NOT considering changing my own procedures by your response, but I want to see what others are thinking around the world to have an educated discussion with my local friends and instructors.

i suggest you do sit down with your instructors and talk this through as you are talking about more in depth problems than could be discused on the web.

life is a journey not to arrive at the grave in a pristine condition but to skid in sideways kicking and screaming, shouting "fuck me what a ride!.

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[councilman24 37]

If you look at the video on the double malfunction thread you'll see the reserve rc entangled in the lines. Certainly having it in his hands didn't aid his manual deployment of the reserve. I haven't studied it in depeth to see if it really contributed to the entanglement and malfunction of the reserve. It could have.

But, what is the reason for NOT getting rid of them? Financial and convenience are the only one's I know. And are not applicable in my estimation.

I both kept them because I forgot to let go and threw them because that's what I've decided to do. And when I had a reserve total I wanted to see the two pins to make sure I'd really pulled it.

I don't believe this should be a debate. But I'm an old fart that had to cove the capewells after pulling the chest mount.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[billbooth 10]

Years ago, before hand deployed pilot chutes, when every jump was a spring loaded main pilot chute deployment, I had my main ripcord ripped out of my hand, and entangled in my main canopy lines, 3 times in about 1,000 jumps. That's one reason I can think of to throw your handles.

[tdog 0]

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in a situation such as you sugest replacing a set of handles is less expensive than replacing a life.

Let me clarify. I would rather save my life any day, and if that means throwing the handles - watch them fly! My comment about the money was suggesting what some other people said, not me.

Nowhere in my emergency procedures do I practice thinking, “This will cost me money.”

My question was to determine IF keeping the handles added risk, and therefore was a stupid move, even as skydivers gain more experience and feel more comfortable with their emergency procedures. I know so many people who kept their handles (including instructors of mine, for all those who say “ask your instructor”), but, are they risking their life to do so? I think, so far, everyone who has posted agrees keeping the handles adds risk, but the amount of risk is different depending on the person.

I also saw the video that Councilman24 references – the double mal with a canopy tangled with the pilot. It was actually that video that made me think about this. It was the first time I saw the handles tangled in a reserve.

[tdog 0]

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Years ago, before hand deployed pilot chutes, when every jump was a spring loaded main pilot chute deployment, I had my main ripcord ripped out of my hand, and entangled in my main canopy lines, 3 times in about 1,000 jumps. That's one reason I can think of to throw your handles.

Thanks Bill for posting. I was hoping you would since you designed most of the stuff I use.

[FrogNog 1]

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Years ago, before hand deployed pilot chutes, when every jump was a spring loaded main pilot chute deployment, I had my main ripcord ripped out of my hand, and entangled in my main canopy lines, 3 times in about 1,000 jumps. That's one reason I can think of to throw your handles.

Last year this happened to a tandem instructor I know - the student pulled and the ripcord just happened to whip up and catch in the lines during deployment, sticking the slider up too high for retrieval or full deployment.

I don't know how many jumps this TI had before that happened. A few thousand or several thousand, I guesstimate.

But, this was during a stable deployment. I assume Bill Booth's entanglements were also on stable deployments? It's possible unstable deployments increase the risk for this.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[Bandanarama 0]

"But, what is the reason for NOT getting rid of them? Financial and convenience are the only one's I know."

I'm a baby in the sport so take that for what it's worth but there can be valid safety concerns for not throwing certain RCs. Many rigs have metal D-handles for cutaway, reserve or both. If one tosses a metal object from up to a few thousand feet AGL, it could cause an accident below. That D-handle could potentially hit someone or a car windshield, etc., and that wouldn't be pretty. The odds may not be too high but then again, reserve rides and especially RC entanglement shouldn't be that high either.

Anyway, you brought up some great points and I'm glad you shared. Hanging onto or releasing one's RCs both have merit. Whichever action someone prefers should be practiced on the ground in a harness to make it 2nd nature and thus not require additional thought during emergency situations. For those that have a change of heart and want to throw their RCs, just practice doing so on the ground and reform those habits.

Just playing Devil's Advocate...

___________________________________________________

One's destination is never a place, but rather a new way of looking at things. ~ Henry Miller

[Scrumpot 1]

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But, what is the reason for NOT getting rid of them? Financial and convenience are the only one's I know

Depending on experience levels, and perspectives, some people that I know feel that KEEPING one's handles during their EP's gives them greater "control". What I mean by that is, that if they have their handles, IN THEIR HANDS, and have pulled both, and are now stowing both into their jumpsuits or what-have-you, in THEIR MINDS this has ASSURED them that they HAVE fully pulled both, and they have therefore COMPLETED their EP's.

Now, conversely on students, I have oft heard it taught to PULL, CLEAR (or "strip"), AND THROW as a means to ASSURING you have FULLY PULLED.

So there you have it! ...Perhaps just another "perspective" for the devil's advocate?

Blue Skies,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[dragon2 2]

Can you throw away your reserve handle on a vector tandem? I think those have the 9-shaped reserve pins?
My Atom has the original PdF RSL setup (though minus the 2nd lanyard), and on my first cutaway I had to conciously let go of the reserve handle because it wouldn't go any further. It won't pull the pin through the hard housing because of the shape of the pin, however I think if the RSL loses tension I could lose my ripcord that way... I leave my RSL disconnected on the main side (because I mostly jump birdman, crew and/or camera), but I cannot disconnect it on the reserve side or remove it completely because then my reserve pin would 'hang loose' ... but the reserve ripcord is kinda stuck to my rig this way.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[obelixtim 150]

Yes you can, because the "9" shaped pin isn't actually attached to the r/c, so the r/c can come free.....it has a loop at the end of it....

Years ago a few bright sparks decided to put ripcord stops on their main ripcords to prevent them getting lost...basically a rubber band wrappe around the cable above the top pin...the r/c could not be pulled all the way out of the housing......

After a couple of fatals where the reserve pilot chute was found entangled with the ripcord it was apparent that a new way to kill yourself had been invented........ripcord stops went out of fashion rather fast...a lost r/c was preferable to a reserve horseshoe.......(this was mostly on F&A gear)...

But its still a bad idea to be attached to a lump of metal by 2 or 3 feet of cable with a handle flapping around on it.......

If you drop the handle, put your feet together and use your two big toes as a "gunsight" to look straight down.....make a note of some feature on the ground below you...and use that as a starting point for a search......promising beer is a good way to get a few helpers to assist....and if the ground is reasonably clear...9 times out of 10 you'll find it.....

I've found heaps of student r/c's because I've spotted the load.......and I always have a reference point on the ground as a start point....

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[philly51 0]

On my malfunction, didn't hesitate to dump them both. At the time, keeping them was the FARTHEST THING on my mind. To tell you the truth, didn't even know I threw them until the rigger asked for them.

Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, Shouting "...holy shit...what a ride!"

[sundevil777 102]

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Years ago, before hand deployed pilot chutes, when every jump was a spring loaded main pilot chute deployment, I had my main ripcord ripped out of my hand, and entangled in my main canopy lines, 3 times in about 1,000 jumps. That's one reason I can think of to throw your handles.

How is that a reason to throw them?

I don't want the ripcord or cutaway cables going up into my deploying canopy, main or reserve.

I would much rather try to hold onto them than to hope they go ourward enough to stay out of the canopy's way.

I like my loop cutaway handle and low profile reserve handle. Easy to pull and hold onto.

In the picture, the cable is not in the housing, that is why it looks weird.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[firstime 0]

This forum is a great place to talk about different
scenarios, from gear,altitude awareness,docking, canopy cont6rol and last but least the final flare.

Who gives a flying horny toad what you do with your
$95 handles.

Jesus M^&* & Jo^^^

[councilman24 37]

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Years ago, before hand deployed pilot chutes, when every jump was a spring loaded main pilot chute deployment, I had my main ripcord ripped out of my hand, and entangled in my main canopy lines, 3 times in about 1,000 jumps. That's one reason I can think of to throw your handles.

How is that a reason to throw them?

Because your reserve is essentially the same system as a spring loaded pilot chute ripcord rig. You need you hands for other things than holding on to "used" handles. Especially taking the time to stow them. If every thing has worked you need to be setting up for landing. Your low, your may not be near the DZ, you may not have your normal indications of wind direction. You need to be concentrating on walking away from the landing.

Risk to people on the ground may be real. But, the cutaway will be falling too slow to really matter. In all the years I've been jumping and reading every issue of Parachutist every published I don't remember ever hearing of damage on the ground by a droped ripcord. And students used to drop them ALL the time. While we have hade ripcord canopy entanglements.

Of course lately it has become a "good" thing to have hung on to your handles. To me it's a bad thing. Plus if you throw them, you get "fresh" ones!

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[sundevil777 102]

I'm focusing on during the deployment. I don't want them being free in the airstream as they would if I planned on letting go.

After deployment is a whole different story.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[JohnMitchell 16]

A lot of people are jumping with the soft "freefly" reserve handles. When you let go of one of those in freefall, they go straight up, right where your reserve is trying to open after you pull it. A friend once found his main handle tangled in his recovered main canopy after hucking it away before chopping a streamer. It can and does happen.

This is the first time I've heard of ripcords being snatched out of hands by canopies deploying, but then, I don't get out much. I still vote to hang onto my handles. I've got really long arms and good body postion when I chop, so I think I can keep them out of the way. So far, so good. Interesting points of view, though.

[GravityGirl 0]

I've both held on to 'em and chucked 'em.

On my last one, I kept them, but my freebag decided to introduce itself to my leg. I let go of 'em pretty quick.

I dirt dive throwing them. But some of my malfunctions were pretty low key, so I held on to them.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[riggerrob 643]

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A lot of people are jumping with the soft "freefly" reserve handles. When you let go of one of those in freefall, they go straight up, right where your reserve is trying to open after you pull it. A friend once found his main handle tangled in his recovered main canopy after hucking it away before chopping a streamer. It can and does happen.

This is the first time I've heard of ripcords being snatched out of hands by canopies deploying, but then, I don't get out much. I still vote to hang onto my handles. I've got really long arms and good body postion when I chop, so I think I can keep them out of the way. So far, so good. Interesting points of view, though.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I suspect that Bill Booth was referring to the long, 4-pin main ripcords that were fashionable when we started jumping in the 1970s.
The elbow pins are far more likely to tangle with lines than the smooth, coated cables used for modern AFF ripcords or release handles.

[riggerrob 643]

Now, conversely on students, I have oft heard it taught to PULL, CLEAR (or "strip"), AND THROW as a means to ASSURING you have FULLY PULLED.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

That procedure is mandatory with SOS (all 3 release and ripcord cables attached to one handle) systems.
SOS was invented by Parachutes Australia in the late 1970s and a bloody accident taught them to teach students to COMPLETELY strip cables. Part of the problem is that SOS reserve ripcords are usually 6 inches longer than their cutaway cables, requiring a pull longer than some students' arms. That is why SOS students are trained to pull with both hands and toss handles.

Unfortunately, this knowledge was lost when SOS was introduced to North American DZs during the mid-1980s.
North Americans insisted on re-learning the lesson the hard way.
As a result, I had an IAD student cut away from a malfunctioning main canopy, but he only did a sissified, limp-wristed, half-hearted pull "until he felt resistance." That resistance was the reserve ripcord pins! Fortunately Francis Xavier Chevrier did his job - deploying the reserves - and saved that stupid student.
Completely stripping cutaway cables before pulling reserves is still a good habit for skydivers with short arms.