spiraling over the landing area

[stratostar 5]

First I don't know to many people who jump traditional accuracy that land in the main LZ, most pea pits aren't the main Lz and for some one to whine about some who is shooting the peas hanging deep breaks is kind of stupid that is how it is done. Why should some who is shooting traditional accuracy not be able to practice that part of the sport, that is what the pea gravel pit is for
it is also very good skills to have for demos and landing off the dz, the need for those skills may not be something that todays hotdogs feel they need but for those of us who do use those skills and have spent a lot of time to hone them it is viewed as an inconsiderate practice to cut off and be bitched out by the hotshot pocket rocket pilots who shouldn't be in the peas in the first place seeing how most of them can't even stop in the center for a dead center landing. I jump and will continue to jump many different canopies that all fly very different and require different techniques to fly. I jump regularly a T-10,MK-1,jumbo MK-1,russian pc, fury 220, parafoil ,2-sabre 170's and a stiletto. I see no reason to quit jumping my choice of canopies or to cut off others who wish to fly what they care too, but you won't find me trying to land my T-10 or PC with a hook into the swoop lane
but you will find me parked on top of the peas with a parafoil or PC sinking it in and if that is nowdays viewed as an inconsiderate practice, well I guess that is just tough shit then for those of you who think that way!

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Doesn't matter as you're setting the "first person down" again in a new area. Flying a consistent, clear pattern will help those behind you know what you're doing. A lot of this can be cleared up with good dz policies and plans or predetermined landing directions for light and variable days.

At our dz on light and variable days the landing direction is announced and called on the plane. If you have similar procedures then I'd follow that direction.

Sounds good. Normally where I'm at there is established left hand patterns, but I do like to visit.

Thanks for the thoughts.

[jdfreefly 1]

Quote

Finally GOOD swoopers know when to bail. Part of being a faster canopy pilot is taking note of all the traffic around and planning/reacting accordingly. Sometimes you just can't swoop so knowing when to say No is crutial.

Well said. If you ever swoop and all of a sudden a surprised by someone who "came out of no where!" you need to either practice out away from traffic or try to stay in the air longer so you can land last.

If you are flying the faster more responsive canopy, it is your responsibility to see the whole sky and avoid others.

I agree that the low man has the right of way. But I also thing, that when youare flying a postage stamp, and claim to be an accomplished canopy pilot, you should make allowances for people on slower moving canopies. It is ok to get annoyed but it is no reason to get pissed and throw a shit fit.

When someone sets up for a straight in, or holds in breaks, and they do it enough that I feel the need to say something, this is how I usually start the conversation:
"You have every right to fly your parachute the way you were doing it, and you have just as much right to that piece of sky as I do. But just so you know, you are moving real slow through a very popular area. Other people are trying to do high speed landings through here. How would you feel about setting up a little deeper?"

And I do so in as accomodating a manner as possible.

If they don't agree, I make a note of their canopy colors and try to remember the next time I see them in the air, at least then I know what to expect. But would you believe, even with that nice, well rehearsed speech, people have still told me to fuck off?

Methane Freefly - got stink?

[Zenister 0]

so i guess its just me that believes accuracy is more than being able to make 30 course corrections on final approach in order to hit your target??


final is final... if you cant judge your approach properly without taking up 4-5 times the width of your canopy after you've turned off the base leg maybe the slow boats without basic skill should be exiled back to the student area??

the main should be reserved for those who have learned how to fly consistent patterns...no matter how fast or slow your canopy flies..

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[PhreeZone 20]

I know exactly how Classic accuracy is done... We have a tuffet and usually 3-4 canopies per load going after it in the summer. Been to Raeford enough and watched the Knights hit that tuffet all day too. I know why you use the wind line, and I know all about the optimal loadings on the Classic, the Challenger and the Foils... I'm a little more schooled then most jumpers are in that reguards.

If you are going slower then the rest of the pattern, pull out of the middle lane and let all the traffic through as you land in the slow lane. If you are going to be Mr. Speed deamon pull into the passing lane and land away from the traffic. Pretty simple.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[stratostar 5]

What part of hanging in deep brakes(sinking) are you not understanding?

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Zenister 0]

Quote

What part of hanging in deep brakes(sinking) are you not understanding?

~

i understand it perfectly...

what part of multiple S turns on final (exactly as i quoted in my original post) dont you understand?

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

When someone sets up for a straight in, or holds in breaks, and they do it enough that I feel the need to say something, this is how I usually start the conversation:
"You have every right to fly your parachute the way you were doing it, and you have just as much right to that piece of sky as I do. But just so you know, you are moving real slow through a very popular area. Other people are trying to do high speed landings through here. How would you feel about setting up a little deeper?"

What a mature and accommodating approach of handling a situation. How are you ever going to get your "look at me I am cool get out my sky" card if you keep that up.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[happythoughts 0]

At our dz, the pond swoopers do one of two things:
-1- They get out at 5K on the way up.
-2- They open high and wait until the pattern clears.

[Scrumpot 1]

Quote

First I don't know to many people who jump traditional accuracy that land in the main LZ, most pea pits aren't the main Lz and for some one to whine about some who is shooting the peas hanging deep breaks is kind of stupid that is how it is done.

I think a lot of people are missing, nearly entirely what you are saying. But you know, another possibility, that I don't think I've seen in this thread yet either (even though it is deviating just a bit from the original rant of spiraling directly over the LZ ...which really is a bit of a different matter from this ...but now even I digress) ...Is that if you are shootong accuracy, who says that even necessarily HAS TO be to the peas? Sure, fine, if you want to. And normally, I've not seen too many problems with this because of (or maybe especially when) 2 things exist:

1. The peas are either (as they usually aren't ...and as you say) a part of the generally accepted "swoop lane" anyway, in the 1st place. but even if they are... or are relatively close...

2. It was made known to the other jumpers on the load this was your intent.

As I see it, this is a 2-way street. COMMUNICATION always is.

Oh yeah, and back to that part I haven't seen (I don't think) offered up here, at least relative to shooting accuracy, and having that mixed in here, is...

Who ever said that accuracy HAS TO BE the peas in the 1st place? I remember back when I was working on my declared accuracy, and consecutive accuracy especially, ...what I would do is take a bright hula-hoop, or in other cases an oversize frisbee and bring it out to either a further downwind, or corner of the LZ, and "declare" that I was gonna be landing there.

Just yet another alternative to be considered is all.
Can't we all just get along?

-Grant
(and P.S. ...regardless, SPIRALLING DOWN THROUGH TRAFFIC DIRECTLY ABOVE THE MAIN LZ IS INDEED BAD Ju-Ju! ...Do that sh** OUTSIDE of the traffic pattern if it is something you feel the need to do. THAT is just common sense/courtesy)

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[stratostar 5]

Becasue you seem to be saying it is a bad thing.
First of all it not! Unless it is done in the middle of the zoomies!
However those skills need to be learned and learned while a student, if done the right way it teaches flat turns and brake turns and how to bleed of alt. all are good a thing to know how to do on the dz so when they find them selfs it a tight spot landing on or off they have to skills to do it without freaking out and doing something stupid.
It can also be done while backing up in high winds.
With all the talk on here about how we need to have better pilot skills I would think more younger and some experienced jumpers need to not only learn but to use those skills more offten instead
of being in such a rush to become a zoomie and only learn how to fly a big L so you can do it and land where you want to great, it's not that hard of a skill to learn.(flying a big L)
But learning how to do it backing up is harder.
Most jumpers today come right off student stats, and only learn the bare min, of the parachute preformance envelope and then carry that with them for a long time and never learn
anything more then how to hook to swoop.
Can you land your canopy in a packed parking lot with out a runway? Or in a small back yard with fences and power lines around it?
Can you fly a canopy backwards? (not backing up in wind)
Yes I said backwards, my guess would be no because you don't jump a canopy that can and haven't in your jumping as of yet.
My fury 220 can and will fly backwards it can also do a 360 to left and right as well going backwards, you may not see the need to know how to do that, but it is a great skill to learn and to use if commited to a tight place on out landing area like some of the demos and off dz landings I have done , why? because you don't have to do a turn if going long and you have to fly just under the stall point to get it to fly backwards.
I think a lot of low 180 turns that hurt and killed younger jumpers wouldn't have happened had S-turns not become a "bad thing" students do the stupidest things when fear sets in, like "oh shit I going long towards" (what ever) and then turn hard to miss what ever and try to 360 back in to the wind.
So knowing a safe way to bleed off with out doing a hard turn is not a bad thing to know sometimes doing a turn makes a bad thing worse,like turning away from a fence and hitting power lines.
I have seen just about every stupid move you can make done by students, today the zoomie are showing me some more stupid moves most of us old timers never though of and there good at it.And yes I think guys like you missed alot in your rush to learn that joe cool 270!

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[stratostar 5]

You would be correct on both points...

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[riggerrob 643]

Start by designating separate landing areas for different classes of canopies.

Old-school Para-Foils should continue landing in the pea gravel bowl. They are too old and too grumpy and too senile to change their ways, so don't waste your time trying to tell them anything different.
Hah!
Hah!
Students should land in the "student landing area."
Finally, swoopers should land their Icarus Extremely Extreme 66 canopies in the swoop lane.

[stratostar 5]

Gee we never thought of that...... LOL, just kidding.
They are split up for the most part, be it seems the zoomie hot shit pilots have a problem with that because if they can't land right in front of everyone no one will see their joe cool 270 turn and swoop looking backwards with no hands or be able showoff for the girls out to do tandems and they have to walk much longer to get to the hanger. This seems to take away from their coolness and hey look at me I'm a badass pilot ego stroke
so many of these guys seem to need.
So instead they whine like crybabys to the dzo about having to land so far way, when someone is going to kick their ass or the s&ta wants to ground them for their dangerous flying in traffic habits. A lot of them have no respect for others (unless your one of them) And after all it's all about fashion and look at me, in todays sport!
But your right having it split is the way to go as long as everyone will play by the rules, even if you don't like the rules!

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[slug 1]

Sounds like a grear subject for safety day and a SOP to be handed out to all the visiting jumpers.

There's plenty of ways of getting the job safely as long as everyone has the sme plan. Arueing about folts doing a std accuracy approach to the pea's IMO is silly thats what the peas are for. Most DZ's can have a bunch of landing disciplines at the same time as long as there is a agreement as to the rules of the road.

What makes this more confusing is DZ's have different rules and there will always be some people who won't play by the rules.

Be safe people your only into the second week of January and we're already losing people. The sport is continues to evolve and the DZ SOP's need to evolve with it. If a DZ doesn't have SOPs for landing or their not enforced maybe its time to find another DZ.

Your the customer and it's your life. If you don't feel safe maybe you can find another DZ where you can, but stil keep your head on a swizzle.

R.I.P.

[tbrown 26]

What's confusing about it? I was on a similar load at Perris in late summer. First person apparently landed one direction, everyone else the other way. All who landed on the grass after the first got a demerit, except me apparently for being the last one down.

[dorbie 0]

Quote

What's confusing about it? I was on a similar load at Perris in late summer. First person apparently landed one direction, everyone else the other way. All who landed on the grass after the first got a demerit, except me apparently for being the last one down.

So I guess when all those other jumpers saw the first guy land one way then everyone land the other they were supposed to land flying into traffic or get a demerit
Only kidding, I expect if you can justify your actions without bullshit you'd be OK. If in doubt land on an alternate, I've done this before at Perris after finding out too late that my pattern setup doesn't match the folks landing. If there's one thing Perris has it's plenty of space to land.

OTOH do you get a demerit when you kite your canopy side by side with another idiot on the grass strip everyone is aiming for at Perris as loads are landing? I don't think so. I think you can do this and actually get away with it.

[Designer 0]

You got it!It is a shame some of our fellow jumpers don't have the common sense to to just fly the pattern.With my exit and opening altitude high 5,000-8,000 AGL.I have no problem taking care of all my fun turns,dives up high.I usually start setting myself up to enter the landing pattern at 2,500 ft.The best thing about the way I do it is I "Make Sure" no one is there when I am preparing to land.I'm old and don't need/want any surprises when I do finally enter my landing pattern at 1,000 ft. AGL.Let's use that thing between out ears(brains)and look out for ourselves and others.rob

[billvon 3,090]

Story from Perris from last weekend:

We were doing 16-ways, and either Dominic, Pat or myself would be the first one down to set the direction. On Sunday, after we opened, I set up for the usual pattern, only to see a tandem setting up to land in an unusual way. I watched him for a moment, then saw Dom spiral down in front of me. He followed the tandem (who was set up for north-to-south in no wind, unusual) and I followed him. With three tandems and 20 other people in the pattern we didn't have much trouble, because everyone was landing in the same direction.

Except for one guy on our load, that is. He managed to not see everyone else and set up for the normal south-to-north approach, and flew between half a dozen canopies (including a tandem) before landing in the grass. Everyone started yelling. Pat went over to talk to him and defused things. A few people on our load were really spooked, since most of them didn't see his approach until the last second - and then suddenly a guy with a closing speed of 50mph appeared right in front of them.

Fortunately no one was hurt, and I have a feeling he's not going to do that again.

[Scrumpot 1]

If you were landing, as you say, either 1st or second from a 16-way Bill, also then aren't what you are saying is that the tandem ...right in FRONT of you, must have been from another (previous) load?

So help me out here a bit. Knowing that it is Perris' policy on "no wind days" (or loads) to be landing from south-to-north (if landing on the grass), how did the pattern get "so confused" in the 1st place? ...And, is that (or should that be) really, a "good" practice? What I mean by that is, generally, the tandems are exiting much "longer" than the fun jumpers on any given load. And I have seen this, even at (or should I say especially at) Perris; that by the time the Tandems are landing, all the OTHER previous fun jumpers are already down. So they tend to "set their OWN" patterns, as it best suits uniquely them.

Wasn't (in part) then, the "mistake" (and I am not casting aspersions here ...only trying to envision and understand) in part, in Dom's chosing to spiral in front of you, then choose to follow the Tandem's pattern, INSTEAD of setting up his own (and arguably more "correct" one) for your load?

Granted the latter-down canopy pilot indeed regardless, went "against the grain", but just for matters of establishing CONSISTENT protocols, shouldn't also the "load leaders" decision (in this case apparently Dom) be addressed?

Do I also follow all this correctly?

I'm actually going to be out there myself within the next few weeks, and if I end up being one of the canopy pilots that is "1st down" from my load on a no-wind day, I do want to be sure that I am following the correct protocols, and avoid any need for any "talking to's" myself, for sure!

THANKS!
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[billvon 3,090]

>the tandem . . .must have been from another (previous) load?

Yes.

>how did the pattern get "so confused"

Tandems often land into even the tiniest hint of wind; they have different considerations than sport jumpers.

The pattern wasn't horribly confused, it just switched, which it does sometime. I wouldn't have assumed that it switched based on the wind socks (they weren't moving much) but the tandems did - and they switched landing direction.

>Wasn't the "mistake" in Dom's chosing to spiral in front of you, then
>choose to follow the Tandem's pattern, INSTEAD of setting up his own
>(and arguably more "correct" one) for your load?

No. The rule there is "first person down sets the landing direction" and the tandems were the first down. Had I been lower than Dominic I would have done the same thing. In no/light wind the preferred direction is north, but landing canopies take priority over that.

Imagine what would have happened had Dom landed to the north. Twenty high performance canopies would have landed facing three landing tandems - and tandems are even harder to dodge than sport canopies. (Or more likely nineteen people would have landed in the mud and yelled at him for landing the wrong direction.)

[Scrumpot 1]

Makes sense now, and I can more clearly envision this. I had assumed that the landing tandem may have been the very last, from the previous load ...AND was on "final". In which case wouldn't establishing the landing pattern by the "preferred" and pre-stated (supposedly "understood") S-->N pattern been more correct to do?

Seeing as apparently what you are saying is that the tandem was more "in the air" ...higher in the pattern, AND that there were 2 others following, this makes perfect sense. Thank you for clearing that up for me!

Blue Skies,
-Grant

*(edited to add: Just playing this out, where even though it may seem "obvious" to you & I, with multiple load jumpers being potentially either in the air, or in the pattern, that it is something to consider/be aware of for those of us who do not normally, or are otherwise just naturally accustomed to jumping at a multiple-turbine DZ) -Thanks Bill for expanding for me upon your reply!

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[HRHSkyPrincess 0]

I, too, sometimes "hover" on final because I'm working on an accuracy landing, a technique I learned from a former member of The Screaming Eagles. HOWEVER, once under canopy I always keep my head on a swivel. Always. We have lots of wide open space at our dz so it's silly to fight over a small oval of pea gravel!!

*****************
Attitude is everything!

[stratostar 5]

yea that is why I find it kind of funny to hear people crying about slower canopies when there is a lot of open space for everyone to land, it always seems to be the show off's who get pissed because "we messed up their swoop" being the lowman flying slow and in their way. The way I see it is, if your lowman and on final and some hotshot is bitching about you, then they are the real fuck up for not setting up better and making way for the people who are lower then them, moving fast or slow.

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[ps5601 0]

Quote

The way I see it is, if your lowman and on final and some hotshot is bitching about you, then they are the real fuck up for not setting up better and making way for the people who are lower then them, moving fast or slow.

~

If you get out, open, fly around (carefully) on your slow canopy and then make your slow, delicate approach into land then fine. We are all under the effect of gravity and can only stay in the air for so long.

However, if you open then spiral your slow canopy below that of a faster canopy THEN do a slow delicate approach you are out of order. The swooper is also trying to set up a delicate approach. It may be further away and faster, but it's just as delicate. The swooper can also only stay in the air for so long, as they too are under the effect of gravity - and by the nature of their canopy they WILL descend faster.

A slower canopy may be slightly lower after they have spiraled, but the other canopy MAY have to come through 'cos they can't descend that slowly. Are you still so sure about the right of way?

A canopy spiraling through faster canopies then stopping just below them is no different from over taking a car on the freeway, pulling back in infront of them and hitting the brakes. Not only is it rude and irresponsible, but it can be dangerous too.

Everyone has a right to the sky, all it takes is a little planning of the exit order and pull heights, then for everyone to be aware of everyone else. If you are on a slower canopy shooting accuracy etc just be aware that faster canopies need to come past you before you play. Likewise, HP pilots, don't sit on deep brakes trying to keep altitude against larger canopies then complain that they got in your way.

Despite planning, there is some times a potential clash. People should know when to bail from their planned landing and opt for a conservative SAFE landing, in my mind this applies to swoopers or accuracy. Neither group has more or less right unless stated before the jump (ie, today is an accuracy/swoop competition).

Blue skies

Paul