happythoughts 0 #1 January 13, 2005 I'd like to say 2 words about that. Stop it. If you are an extra 200 ft up, that would be your fault. Suck it up and walk back a little further instead of endangering others. Ever heard "look before ya hook" ? A spiral is a series of 180s. The first thing that you do in a 180 is look behind and below you on both sides. That is because after you do the 180, you will be there and heading that direction. If you spiral down into the pattern, where is everyone else suppose to go to avoid you? I also don't want to hear, "I looked first". No one has a collision of any type and says "I saw them". Use extra caution in a landing area. This goes for people who do S-turns and sashay side-to-side to bleed off altitude too. When people are doing little S-turns, etc in the main landing area, there are people behind them who are coming in on a straight approach. All of a sudden, the ones behind are scrambling to avoid them... and then people are avoiding them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #2 January 13, 2005 very little pisses me off more than some toggle-whipping moron spiraling down past me into the pattern under a Stilletto 135 then levelling off at 500 feet directly in my way. I have no idea what their hurry is to beat me down, even when I am trying my damndest to stay up and out of the way of slower traffic. Likewise, these same people seem to revel in setting up straight over the entrance cone to the swoop lane and then coming to a jerky stop right dead in the middle of it only to stand there and stow their brakes. Ugh. Quit it. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stacy 0 #3 January 13, 2005 I prefer to land away from the garbage. Walking a little doesn't hurt me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #4 January 13, 2005 QuoteI prefer to land away from the garbage. Walking a little doesn't hurt me. "It is better to land out and walk a long way, than to land close and get carried a short way." I don't know if Johnny or I said that first, but we both use it all the time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #5 January 13, 2005 Quote This goes for people who do S-turns and sashay side-to-side to bleed off altitude too. When people are doing little S-turns, etc in the main landing area, there are people behind them who are coming in on a straight approach. All of a sudden, the ones behind are scrambling to avoid them... and then people are avoiding them. meanwhile these are some of the people that consider themselves "safe canopy pilots" because they never do more than a 90 deg turn, yet their accuracy in traffic still sucks and they will yell at you if you have to avoid them because "i was low man i have right of way" ....____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MWGemini 0 #6 January 13, 2005 There is a difference, however, between someone who routinely does S-turns because they always misjudge their approach and someone who does it once or twice because they misjudged and maintaining a straight in approach would put them in a hazardous landing area. Anyone who is in that situation had better make damn sure they are not impeding traffic behind them, however. Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 16 #7 January 13, 2005 Quote IThis goes for people who do S-turns and sashay side-to-side to bleed off altitude too. When people are doing little S-turns, etc in the main landing area, there are people behind them who are coming in on a straight approach. All of a sudden, the ones behind are scrambling to avoid them... and then people are avoiding them. Use them for gates. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stratostar 5 #8 January 13, 2005 yet their accuracy in traffic still sucks and they will yell at you if you have to avoid them because "i was low man i have right of way" (quote) If one is shooting for the peas, I see nothing wrong with working the wind line (before the sink) that may be to old school for some understand, so swoopers need to stay out of the peas. And what ever happend to the rule "low man has the right of way" I think it still apply's today, it you got some hotrod canopy go land some place else, I have seen more hotshots with there "joe cool moves" cut off, dive from above and behind and plane out right in front of the "lowman" some were students too.I can think of a well known dzo who was the "lowman" and now he is gone... Too many of "cool hot shots" have no respect for the slower people in the air who have just as much right to airspace and to land in the Lz as every one else! I don't give a ratt's ass that you fly a ground hungry wing that lands faster then a cessna 182, if you need to fly that kind of hot canopy then you need to land away from the lz instead of over taking everyone else so you can come screaming out of the sky for a hot shot swoop to look cool for the girls out to do tandems, the rest of us has already seen it and we don't care you can swoop a football field looking backwards with no hands, the main Lz is not the place to show off. Don't build your swoop lane next to the peas or student landing area, and for the folk who shoot accuracy stay the hell out of the swoop lane! ~you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Remster 30 #9 January 13, 2005 QuoteAnd what ever happend to the rule "low man has the right of way" I think it still apply's today Yes, but dont spiral down to get in the middle of traffic....Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bluewaterstream 0 #10 January 13, 2005 Quote...so swoopers need to stay out of the peas. And what ever happend to the rule "low man has the right of way" I think it still apply's today, it you got some hotrod canopy go land some place else, I have seen more hotshots with there "joe cool moves" cut off, dive from above and behind and plane out right in front of the "lowman" some were students too. About 40 jumps ago, I ran into a situation pretty similar to what stratostar is describing above. I've already talked to a few other extremely experience canopy pilots regarding this issue, but I'm curious to hear what ya'll think. So, after this situation took place I heard that the 1st man down on this particular load landed facing East. I did not see this with my own two eyes, I may have been deploying at that point, watching traffic around me, etc. With that said, the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th all landed facing West. The 6th and 7th guys were the only ones that landed pretty close to the peas(about 10 - 20 ft short of the peas). Since the 6 jumpers below me all landed facing West, that's also where I was heading and I was going to be the 8th guy down and was going to overshoot the peas by about 10 feet. When I was at about 80ft AGL I notice this dude at about 150 ft(I'm guessing here) begin spiraling down hard to set up for a swoop toward the peas. So, he was setting up for a swoop heading East and I was coming in for a landing heading West. Just as he was about to level out toward the peas, I decided to make a flat turn out to the North to avoid a collision. Well, his swoop was right on point and he basically landed his swoop right on the peas. So, if I didn't flat turn away from him we most likely would have collided in the peas. So, as I was daisy-chaining my lines I overheard him and a few of his buddies complaining about how I cut him off. So, rather than let this become a pissing contest I walked up to them both to try and calmly discuss what happened so that we could learn from it and so that it never happened again. Without going into details it got all heated, they kept insisting that because they had thousands and thousands of jumps and more experience that I should just listen to them without trying to explain my side of the story. That type of logic doesn't work with me I refuse to kiss someone's ass and/or blindly accept their opinion just because they have more jumps than me. After about 20 minutes of arguing we accomplished and learned nothing from the situation. You know, if I fuck up, prove it, and I'll apologize and admit that I was wrong, but they couldn't prove shit so I refused to back down. These guys are bad ass skydivers, bad ass canopy pilots, knowledgeable, well respected at my DZ, employed their, and most people with less jumps than them kiss their ass because of who they are and for their jump numbers. I think that they got pissed that some dude with 40 jumps was questioning their opinion on what happened. These cats sometimes post on dz.com, so maybe they will read this and maybe we finally can learn something from that situation. edited to add: The winds were coming out of the West, so I, as well as the 6 jumpers below me, were all landing into the wind and he was landing downwind. We do have the follow the first man down rule at my DZ, so in that regard he was right. My guess is that if the first guy down also landing downwind, that they were most likely swooping too. So if the 1st guy down swoops downwind, but the 2nd through 8th are all landing into the wind, and the 9th guy swoops downwind in order to follow the direction of the fist man down - who's right? Honestly, I can see several points of view here. I think we both made a few mistakes, but once again, I'd like to hear what you guys think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mdowling 0 #11 January 13, 2005 Couldn't agree more! This lunacy of spiraling over the pattern nearly killed me about 2 years ago when I got blindsided from above as I started my downwind leg. (Check this thread from the incident forum: Canopy Wrap if you're curious what I'm talking about.) Head on a swivel folks, please! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Remster 30 #12 January 13, 2005 QuoteSo if the 1st guy down swoops downwind, but the 2nd through 8th are all landing into the wind, and the 9th guy swoops downwind in order to follow the direction of the fist man down - who's right? Honestly, I can see several points of view here. I think we both made a few mistakes, but once again, I'd like to hear what you guys think. If the rule at the DZ is 1st one down sets the pattern, then thats the rule. The people who didnt are the ones who were wrong (and sorry, I got confused by your story, so I'm not sure who did what lol). In any event, it was a fuck up. As soon as 2 people start landing in diff directions, people setting up will end up being confused and anarchy usually entails. Land out if you want to avoid that.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #13 January 13, 2005 QuoteQuoteSo if the 1st guy down swoops downwind, but the 2nd through 8th are all landing into the wind, and the 9th guy swoops downwind in order to follow the direction of the fist man down - who's right? Honestly, I can see several points of view here. I think we both made a few mistakes, but once again, I'd like to hear what you guys think. If the rule at the DZ is 1st one down sets the pattern, then thats the rule. The people who didnt are the ones who were wrong (and sorry, I got confused by your story, so I'm not sure who did what lol). What's confusing about it? I was on a similar load at Perris in late summer. First person apparently landed one direction, everyone else the other way. All who landed on the grass after the first got a demerit, except me apparently for being the last one down. I don't know if there's any reasonable way for me to have known what the first person did either, giving the timing and where I opened, etc. The pattern looked pretty damn clear. No reason to land outside when "everyone" was going one way. Unless someone else noticed and stuck to the first man down rule. That appears to be the story for Blue here. So...if #1 goes west, and #2-8 go east, what should #9+, knowing both facts? And is watching #1 the most important thing after canopy opening? Is that really safer than following the pattern established by 2-8? Is this is what leads DZs to just set a direction from the onset? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #14 January 13, 2005 QuoteSo...if #1 goes west, and #2-8 go east, what should #9+, knowing both facts? Land in an alternate area in the same direction (essentially setting their own first person down) to avoid confusion. QuoteIs that really safer than following the pattern established by 2-8? Is this is what leads DZs to just set a direction from the onset? The problem is that you don't know what 2-8 plan on doing and worse, you have no idea what 10-x (assuming you're 9) are setting up for. Hence my suggestion above. When it's a cluster fuck I go somewhere else. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Remster 30 #15 January 13, 2005 QuoteWhat's confusing about it? I read it quickly. QuoteSo...if #1 goes west, and #2-8 go east, what should #9+, knowing both facts? What Ian and I said. Land out.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #16 January 13, 2005 Everyone just land facing the peas. ...disclaimer for stupid people: that was a joke. Do not do that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #17 January 13, 2005 QuoteQuoteSo...if #1 goes west, and #2-8 go east, what should #9+, knowing both facts? Land in an alternate area in the same direction (essentially setting their own first person down) to avoid confusion. which same direction? 2-8? I would tend to go this route, but it of course relies on having seen the first person. Quote The problem is that you don't know what 2-8 plan on doing and worse, you have no idea what 10-x (assuming you're 9) are setting up for. Hence my suggestion above. When it's a cluster fuck I go somewhere else. As I posed it, I meant it to be a given what 2-8 had already done. Course, with my light wingloading, higher pull, I generally have plenty of time to let others get down. I can also go into brakes to insure space if I want it. I can see that for many, you wouldn't have this knowledge soon enough to make use of it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #18 January 13, 2005 There are 3 things that piss me off in patterns. 1) People hovering there in breaks to hit the Peas. 2) Swoopers that think that the Peas/Beer line/whatever is theirs and their's alone. 3) People doing S turns because they have no clue how to fly a true pattern If you are going slower then everyone else, land elsewhere. If you are going faster then everyone else, land elsewhere. If you can't figure out how to fly a consistant pattern that has you landing exactly where you want to without any S turns or suddenly hanging on breaks for random points in the pattern... land elsewhere.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stratostar 5 #19 January 13, 2005 I was refering to traditional accuracy so you must not have done it or don't understand why people would hover in deep breaks over the peas or for that matter work the wind line before setting up to sink it in.Then again maybe you missed the part about it being old shcool and with your four years in the sport I wouldn't expect you know any better as to what I was talking about. ~you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #20 January 13, 2005 Quotewhich same direction? 2-8? I would tend to go this route, but it of course relies on having seen the first person. Doesn't matter as you're setting the "first person down" again in a new area. Flying a consistent, clear pattern will help those behind you know what you're doing. A lot of this can be cleared up with good dz policies and plans or predetermined landing directions for light and variable days. At our dz on light and variable days the landing direction is announced and called on the plane. If you have similar procedures then I'd follow that direction. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #21 January 13, 2005 QuoteI was refering to traditional accuracy so you must not have done it or don't understand why people would hover in deep breaks over the peas or for that matter work the wind line before setting up to sink it in.Then again maybe you missed the part about it being old shcool and with your four years in the sport I wouldn't expect you know any better as to what I was talking about. Old school or not it is now viewed as an inconsiderate practice. Like swooping, it should be done outside of the main landing area whenever possible. As for the time in the sport, yep, you definately have a lot of time and that's respectible. Times change, however, and as the sport grows and introduces new things we learn and adapt. Just cause it's the way you've always done it, doesn't mean it's the way to keep doing it. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bluewaterstream 0 #22 January 13, 2005 I completely agree with both of these statements: QuoteIf the rule at the DZ is 1st one down sets the pattern, then thats the rule. The people who didnt are the ones who were wrong QuoteAs soon as 2 people start landing in diff directions, people setting up will end up being confused and anarchy usually entails. Land out if you want to avoid that. So, my biggest mistake was that I didn't see the first person land. I totally accept that. Sometimes though, we're not always in a situation where we can see the first person land and we have to determine the landing direction from those that land after the first person. From my point of view, everyone that I saw landing underneath me was landing into the wind, in the same direction, and in an orderly fashion, so the landing area appeared to be safe and organized. Everything seemed cool until I saw someone spiraling down to swoop toward me. Here are a few other concerns of mine: My landing pattern is as basic as you can get, in other words, it's pretty easy to determine where I'm heading when I'm coming in for a landing. On this particular landing I was heading strait the entire time while on final, no s-turns to bleed off altitude or anything like that. So, my question is why didn't the swooper see me until he was already in his swoop? With thousands and thousands of jumps, why was he so unaware of the 7 jumpers all heading in the same direction that were all at a lower altitudes then him? Why did he not see me before spiraling down? Why did he swoop to the peas when we have a designated swooping course that is away from the main landing area? I was willing to accept and learn from my mistake and I would think that even people with thousands of jumps could accept, admit, and learn from theirs too. It seems obvious that several people made mistakes in this situation. I was willing to discuss and accept my mistake(s) but was it inconceivable for them to even consider that perhaps the swooper also made a mistake or two that was worth discussing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #23 January 13, 2005 Quote landing. On this particular landing I was heading strait the entire time while on final, no s-turns to bleed off altitude or anything like that. So, my question is why didn't the swooper see me until he was already in his swoop? With thousands and thousands of jumps, why was he so unaware of the 7 jumpers all heading in the same direction that were all at a lower altitudes then him? Why did he not see me before spiraling down? Why did he swoop to the peas when we have a designated swooping course that is away from the main landing area? I was willing to accept and learn from my mistake and I would think that even people with thousands of jumps could accept, admit, and learn from theirs too. It sounds like the swooper was in the wrong. While the first person down sets the landing direction, that doesn't give the swooper carte blanche to swoop down seconds before you touch down in the opposite direction and then yell foul! It's a little give and take on both sides. Swoopers need to be considerate AND PLAN for slower traffic, while slower traffic needs to fly considerate, consistent patterns to help descending traffic make the right decisions. That includes flying reasonably tight patterns. A nice clear pattern that turns you onto final a half mile up the landing area is no good either. Finally GOOD swoopers know when to bail. Part of being a faster canopy pilot is taking note of all the traffic around and planning/reacting accordingly. Sometimes you just can't swoop so knowing when to say No is crutial. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 102 #24 January 14, 2005 QuoteWhile the first person down sets the landing direction At some DZs, but thankfully it is far from widespread.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ianmdrennan 2 #25 January 14, 2005 QuoteAt some DZs, but thankfully it is far from widespread. Agreed, but at the dz in question it's applicable. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 1 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. 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happythoughts 0 #4 January 13, 2005 QuoteI prefer to land away from the garbage. Walking a little doesn't hurt me. "It is better to land out and walk a long way, than to land close and get carried a short way." I don't know if Johnny or I said that first, but we both use it all the time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #5 January 13, 2005 Quote This goes for people who do S-turns and sashay side-to-side to bleed off altitude too. When people are doing little S-turns, etc in the main landing area, there are people behind them who are coming in on a straight approach. All of a sudden, the ones behind are scrambling to avoid them... and then people are avoiding them. meanwhile these are some of the people that consider themselves "safe canopy pilots" because they never do more than a 90 deg turn, yet their accuracy in traffic still sucks and they will yell at you if you have to avoid them because "i was low man i have right of way" ....____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MWGemini 0 #6 January 13, 2005 There is a difference, however, between someone who routinely does S-turns because they always misjudge their approach and someone who does it once or twice because they misjudged and maintaining a straight in approach would put them in a hazardous landing area. Anyone who is in that situation had better make damn sure they are not impeding traffic behind them, however. Mike Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #7 January 13, 2005 Quote IThis goes for people who do S-turns and sashay side-to-side to bleed off altitude too. When people are doing little S-turns, etc in the main landing area, there are people behind them who are coming in on a straight approach. All of a sudden, the ones behind are scrambling to avoid them... and then people are avoiding them. Use them for gates. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #8 January 13, 2005 yet their accuracy in traffic still sucks and they will yell at you if you have to avoid them because "i was low man i have right of way" (quote) If one is shooting for the peas, I see nothing wrong with working the wind line (before the sink) that may be to old school for some understand, so swoopers need to stay out of the peas. And what ever happend to the rule "low man has the right of way" I think it still apply's today, it you got some hotrod canopy go land some place else, I have seen more hotshots with there "joe cool moves" cut off, dive from above and behind and plane out right in front of the "lowman" some were students too.I can think of a well known dzo who was the "lowman" and now he is gone... Too many of "cool hot shots" have no respect for the slower people in the air who have just as much right to airspace and to land in the Lz as every one else! I don't give a ratt's ass that you fly a ground hungry wing that lands faster then a cessna 182, if you need to fly that kind of hot canopy then you need to land away from the lz instead of over taking everyone else so you can come screaming out of the sky for a hot shot swoop to look cool for the girls out to do tandems, the rest of us has already seen it and we don't care you can swoop a football field looking backwards with no hands, the main Lz is not the place to show off. Don't build your swoop lane next to the peas or student landing area, and for the folk who shoot accuracy stay the hell out of the swoop lane! ~you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #9 January 13, 2005 QuoteAnd what ever happend to the rule "low man has the right of way" I think it still apply's today Yes, but dont spiral down to get in the middle of traffic....Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bluewaterstream 0 #10 January 13, 2005 Quote...so swoopers need to stay out of the peas. And what ever happend to the rule "low man has the right of way" I think it still apply's today, it you got some hotrod canopy go land some place else, I have seen more hotshots with there "joe cool moves" cut off, dive from above and behind and plane out right in front of the "lowman" some were students too. About 40 jumps ago, I ran into a situation pretty similar to what stratostar is describing above. I've already talked to a few other extremely experience canopy pilots regarding this issue, but I'm curious to hear what ya'll think. So, after this situation took place I heard that the 1st man down on this particular load landed facing East. I did not see this with my own two eyes, I may have been deploying at that point, watching traffic around me, etc. With that said, the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th all landed facing West. The 6th and 7th guys were the only ones that landed pretty close to the peas(about 10 - 20 ft short of the peas). Since the 6 jumpers below me all landed facing West, that's also where I was heading and I was going to be the 8th guy down and was going to overshoot the peas by about 10 feet. When I was at about 80ft AGL I notice this dude at about 150 ft(I'm guessing here) begin spiraling down hard to set up for a swoop toward the peas. So, he was setting up for a swoop heading East and I was coming in for a landing heading West. Just as he was about to level out toward the peas, I decided to make a flat turn out to the North to avoid a collision. Well, his swoop was right on point and he basically landed his swoop right on the peas. So, if I didn't flat turn away from him we most likely would have collided in the peas. So, as I was daisy-chaining my lines I overheard him and a few of his buddies complaining about how I cut him off. So, rather than let this become a pissing contest I walked up to them both to try and calmly discuss what happened so that we could learn from it and so that it never happened again. Without going into details it got all heated, they kept insisting that because they had thousands and thousands of jumps and more experience that I should just listen to them without trying to explain my side of the story. That type of logic doesn't work with me I refuse to kiss someone's ass and/or blindly accept their opinion just because they have more jumps than me. After about 20 minutes of arguing we accomplished and learned nothing from the situation. You know, if I fuck up, prove it, and I'll apologize and admit that I was wrong, but they couldn't prove shit so I refused to back down. These guys are bad ass skydivers, bad ass canopy pilots, knowledgeable, well respected at my DZ, employed their, and most people with less jumps than them kiss their ass because of who they are and for their jump numbers. I think that they got pissed that some dude with 40 jumps was questioning their opinion on what happened. These cats sometimes post on dz.com, so maybe they will read this and maybe we finally can learn something from that situation. edited to add: The winds were coming out of the West, so I, as well as the 6 jumpers below me, were all landing into the wind and he was landing downwind. We do have the follow the first man down rule at my DZ, so in that regard he was right. My guess is that if the first guy down also landing downwind, that they were most likely swooping too. So if the 1st guy down swoops downwind, but the 2nd through 8th are all landing into the wind, and the 9th guy swoops downwind in order to follow the direction of the fist man down - who's right? Honestly, I can see several points of view here. I think we both made a few mistakes, but once again, I'd like to hear what you guys think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mdowling 0 #11 January 13, 2005 Couldn't agree more! This lunacy of spiraling over the pattern nearly killed me about 2 years ago when I got blindsided from above as I started my downwind leg. (Check this thread from the incident forum: Canopy Wrap if you're curious what I'm talking about.) Head on a swivel folks, please! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #12 January 13, 2005 QuoteSo if the 1st guy down swoops downwind, but the 2nd through 8th are all landing into the wind, and the 9th guy swoops downwind in order to follow the direction of the fist man down - who's right? Honestly, I can see several points of view here. I think we both made a few mistakes, but once again, I'd like to hear what you guys think. If the rule at the DZ is 1st one down sets the pattern, then thats the rule. The people who didnt are the ones who were wrong (and sorry, I got confused by your story, so I'm not sure who did what lol). In any event, it was a fuck up. As soon as 2 people start landing in diff directions, people setting up will end up being confused and anarchy usually entails. Land out if you want to avoid that.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #13 January 13, 2005 QuoteQuoteSo if the 1st guy down swoops downwind, but the 2nd through 8th are all landing into the wind, and the 9th guy swoops downwind in order to follow the direction of the fist man down - who's right? Honestly, I can see several points of view here. I think we both made a few mistakes, but once again, I'd like to hear what you guys think. If the rule at the DZ is 1st one down sets the pattern, then thats the rule. The people who didnt are the ones who were wrong (and sorry, I got confused by your story, so I'm not sure who did what lol). What's confusing about it? I was on a similar load at Perris in late summer. First person apparently landed one direction, everyone else the other way. All who landed on the grass after the first got a demerit, except me apparently for being the last one down. I don't know if there's any reasonable way for me to have known what the first person did either, giving the timing and where I opened, etc. The pattern looked pretty damn clear. No reason to land outside when "everyone" was going one way. Unless someone else noticed and stuck to the first man down rule. That appears to be the story for Blue here. So...if #1 goes west, and #2-8 go east, what should #9+, knowing both facts? And is watching #1 the most important thing after canopy opening? Is that really safer than following the pattern established by 2-8? Is this is what leads DZs to just set a direction from the onset? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #14 January 13, 2005 QuoteSo...if #1 goes west, and #2-8 go east, what should #9+, knowing both facts? Land in an alternate area in the same direction (essentially setting their own first person down) to avoid confusion. QuoteIs that really safer than following the pattern established by 2-8? Is this is what leads DZs to just set a direction from the onset? The problem is that you don't know what 2-8 plan on doing and worse, you have no idea what 10-x (assuming you're 9) are setting up for. Hence my suggestion above. When it's a cluster fuck I go somewhere else. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #15 January 13, 2005 QuoteWhat's confusing about it? I read it quickly. QuoteSo...if #1 goes west, and #2-8 go east, what should #9+, knowing both facts? What Ian and I said. Land out.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #16 January 13, 2005 Everyone just land facing the peas. ...disclaimer for stupid people: that was a joke. Do not do that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #17 January 13, 2005 QuoteQuoteSo...if #1 goes west, and #2-8 go east, what should #9+, knowing both facts? Land in an alternate area in the same direction (essentially setting their own first person down) to avoid confusion. which same direction? 2-8? I would tend to go this route, but it of course relies on having seen the first person. Quote The problem is that you don't know what 2-8 plan on doing and worse, you have no idea what 10-x (assuming you're 9) are setting up for. Hence my suggestion above. When it's a cluster fuck I go somewhere else. As I posed it, I meant it to be a given what 2-8 had already done. Course, with my light wingloading, higher pull, I generally have plenty of time to let others get down. I can also go into brakes to insure space if I want it. I can see that for many, you wouldn't have this knowledge soon enough to make use of it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #18 January 13, 2005 There are 3 things that piss me off in patterns. 1) People hovering there in breaks to hit the Peas. 2) Swoopers that think that the Peas/Beer line/whatever is theirs and their's alone. 3) People doing S turns because they have no clue how to fly a true pattern If you are going slower then everyone else, land elsewhere. If you are going faster then everyone else, land elsewhere. If you can't figure out how to fly a consistant pattern that has you landing exactly where you want to without any S turns or suddenly hanging on breaks for random points in the pattern... land elsewhere.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #19 January 13, 2005 I was refering to traditional accuracy so you must not have done it or don't understand why people would hover in deep breaks over the peas or for that matter work the wind line before setting up to sink it in.Then again maybe you missed the part about it being old shcool and with your four years in the sport I wouldn't expect you know any better as to what I was talking about. ~you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #20 January 13, 2005 Quotewhich same direction? 2-8? I would tend to go this route, but it of course relies on having seen the first person. Doesn't matter as you're setting the "first person down" again in a new area. Flying a consistent, clear pattern will help those behind you know what you're doing. A lot of this can be cleared up with good dz policies and plans or predetermined landing directions for light and variable days. At our dz on light and variable days the landing direction is announced and called on the plane. If you have similar procedures then I'd follow that direction. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #21 January 13, 2005 QuoteI was refering to traditional accuracy so you must not have done it or don't understand why people would hover in deep breaks over the peas or for that matter work the wind line before setting up to sink it in.Then again maybe you missed the part about it being old shcool and with your four years in the sport I wouldn't expect you know any better as to what I was talking about. Old school or not it is now viewed as an inconsiderate practice. Like swooping, it should be done outside of the main landing area whenever possible. As for the time in the sport, yep, you definately have a lot of time and that's respectible. Times change, however, and as the sport grows and introduces new things we learn and adapt. Just cause it's the way you've always done it, doesn't mean it's the way to keep doing it. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bluewaterstream 0 #22 January 13, 2005 I completely agree with both of these statements: QuoteIf the rule at the DZ is 1st one down sets the pattern, then thats the rule. The people who didnt are the ones who were wrong QuoteAs soon as 2 people start landing in diff directions, people setting up will end up being confused and anarchy usually entails. Land out if you want to avoid that. So, my biggest mistake was that I didn't see the first person land. I totally accept that. Sometimes though, we're not always in a situation where we can see the first person land and we have to determine the landing direction from those that land after the first person. From my point of view, everyone that I saw landing underneath me was landing into the wind, in the same direction, and in an orderly fashion, so the landing area appeared to be safe and organized. Everything seemed cool until I saw someone spiraling down to swoop toward me. Here are a few other concerns of mine: My landing pattern is as basic as you can get, in other words, it's pretty easy to determine where I'm heading when I'm coming in for a landing. On this particular landing I was heading strait the entire time while on final, no s-turns to bleed off altitude or anything like that. So, my question is why didn't the swooper see me until he was already in his swoop? With thousands and thousands of jumps, why was he so unaware of the 7 jumpers all heading in the same direction that were all at a lower altitudes then him? Why did he not see me before spiraling down? Why did he swoop to the peas when we have a designated swooping course that is away from the main landing area? I was willing to accept and learn from my mistake and I would think that even people with thousands of jumps could accept, admit, and learn from theirs too. It seems obvious that several people made mistakes in this situation. I was willing to discuss and accept my mistake(s) but was it inconceivable for them to even consider that perhaps the swooper also made a mistake or two that was worth discussing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #23 January 13, 2005 Quote landing. On this particular landing I was heading strait the entire time while on final, no s-turns to bleed off altitude or anything like that. So, my question is why didn't the swooper see me until he was already in his swoop? With thousands and thousands of jumps, why was he so unaware of the 7 jumpers all heading in the same direction that were all at a lower altitudes then him? Why did he not see me before spiraling down? Why did he swoop to the peas when we have a designated swooping course that is away from the main landing area? I was willing to accept and learn from my mistake and I would think that even people with thousands of jumps could accept, admit, and learn from theirs too. It sounds like the swooper was in the wrong. While the first person down sets the landing direction, that doesn't give the swooper carte blanche to swoop down seconds before you touch down in the opposite direction and then yell foul! It's a little give and take on both sides. Swoopers need to be considerate AND PLAN for slower traffic, while slower traffic needs to fly considerate, consistent patterns to help descending traffic make the right decisions. That includes flying reasonably tight patterns. A nice clear pattern that turns you onto final a half mile up the landing area is no good either. Finally GOOD swoopers know when to bail. Part of being a faster canopy pilot is taking note of all the traffic around and planning/reacting accordingly. Sometimes you just can't swoop so knowing when to say No is crutial. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #24 January 14, 2005 QuoteWhile the first person down sets the landing direction At some DZs, but thankfully it is far from widespread.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #25 January 14, 2005 QuoteAt some DZs, but thankfully it is far from widespread. Agreed, but at the dz in question it's applicable. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
