Tandems on Demos (revisited)

[SansSuit 1]

I know this has been discussed before, but I'm looking for the latest info. BSR Section 2-1-J-3 talks about the requirement for Level 2 landing areas. 2-1-J-5 talks about stadiums. I did a quick search and couldn't find any thing about Level 1 demos with a tandem.

The idea is that I want to put a tandem with a student (first time) into a Level 1 landing area. The TM is PRO rated and a tandem examiner.

I could swear that I heard/read that it is cool now, but I can't find anything in writing.

Any help?

Peace,
-Dawson.
http://www.SansSuit.com
The Society for the Advancement of Naked Skydiving

[BillyVance 35]

No help from me as far as finding written guidelines. I looked in my 2008 SIM copy with no luck.

I know it has been done before so I imagine a special waiver has to be made. I just don't know if it's to the FAA or the tandem manufacturer, or both.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[popsjumper 2]

I'd bet Kip Lohmiller and Team Fastrax at Startskydiving would be able to help you.

Art Shaffer at Palatka would be too.
http://www.skydivepalatka.com/theartofsky/theartof_index.htm

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Para5-0 0]

Similar to an underage Tandem, you would have to get USPA waiver and a UPT or Strong Waiver. So your best bet would be to contact Safety and Training Jim Crouch and the manufacturer. The last I heard you can do Tandems into Demos as long as the passenger had a license that qualified him the particular demo. So a D rated Demo could be done as long as the passenger was a D rated skydiver. I had done one with Mcgruff the crime dog but the passenger was another TI. I would take the time now to get total clearance rather than having to answer for it. Also the FAA, waivers sometimes have requirements for each jumper. I am sure you will have to hash it out with them as well. Ex. On the FAR waiver it usually specify's each jumper must have a square steerable main and reserve....Etc. In NJ we also have to gete a DOT permit, and that might also need some addressing. Good luck you are on a collision course with two governmental agencies and USPA, but with enough planning I bet you can get it done.

[skydived19006 4]

The BSRs do not speak to tandem into a level 1 or open field, so as far as USPA goes you're cool to do the demo. I asked Jim Crouch about it a few years ago, and he replied with a cut/paste of the BSRs you noted in your post.

The FAA is a whole-nother-issue. You can play it a couple of ways, either talk to your FSDO contact, and explain that you're complying with USPA rules, and if you have a good relationship it may be ok. All perticipants are supposed to sigh the FAA paperwork before the jump, and list experience. The FAA paperwork is very specific regarding experience, so you can choose to read it as "Pilot in command" with regard to required experience.

As mentioned, there is also the issue with the manufacturer, you should get their permission as well (good luck). It seems to me like the UTP user agreement has a note about paying UTP $10,000 each time you jump with a student under the age of 18, or something to that affect, there may also be something regarding demonstration jumps. I own Eclipse gear, so there's no manufacturer to ask. I have done a couple of Level1/Open Field demos with a first time tandem student, not insured, and not within the city limits of The City of Wichita Kansas.

Another issue may be insurance. You will not be able to purchase insurance. Insurance Technologies will not cover a tandem demo with a student.

Something else to consider. The city of Wichita Kansas actually has an ordinance requiring insurance, and a permit from the city for any demonstration skydive conducted within the city limits. This may be very unique, I haven't researched other municipalities. The insurance policy is to include the City of Wichita as Co-Insured.

You could go for it and claim ignorance if you hurt someone or otherwise get charged with some infraction. Claiming ignorance it a fairly poor defense option.

http://www.wichitagov.org/NR/rdonlyres/2A442F2A-D4EF-4771-BCAB-CB784E0BADFE/0/parachute_skydive_06d.pdf

http://www.wichitagov.org/NR/rdonlyres/81CD7B13-F67A-45AA-9941-D18CC5097349/0/parachute_skydive_license_06f.pdf

Feel free to PM, or email if I can help. I tried to not incriminate myself (very much) in writing on a public forum with this post.

Martin

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[riggerrob 643]

Another issue may be insurance. You will not be able to purchase insurance. Insurance Technologies will not cover a tandem demo with a student.

Something else to consider. The city of Wichita Kansas actually has an ordinance requiring insurance, and a permit from the city for any demonstration skydive conducted within the city limits. This may be very unique, I haven't researched other municipalities. The insurance policy is to include the City of Wichita as Co-Insured.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

That may not be the letter of the law in other jurisdictions, but it is common practice.
For example, in Canada, all demo jumps must be done in accordance with CSPA and Transport Canada guidelines, which include third party liability insurance (purchasable through CSPA) and permission from the city.

I forget the exact wording, but CSPA frowns upon taking tandems on demos.

[AndyMan 7]

There is no USPA or FAR prohibition against a Tandem into a Level A landing area. Obviously the TM must be properly rated. I'm not sure if it's also required that the tandem passenger also be rated, but I do think it's good form. A 'C' license is all that's required for a level A demo.

We had one scheduled last summer, but had to scrub the tandem because of a low ceiling.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[SansSuit 1]

Quote

Another issue may be insurance. You will not be able to purchase insurance. Insurance Technologies will not cover a tandem demo with a student.

Thanks for the help peoples. But this is going to be the big bugaboo right here. The club mandates insurance for all demos. No insurance, no tandem. I'll have to sell something else.

Thanks again.

Peace,
-Jeff.

Peace,
-Dawson.
http://www.SansSuit.com
The Society for the Advancement of Naked Skydiving

[Skymonkey2 0]

You should really get a hold of Jay Stokes, he has done several Demo Tandems. Into stadiums and open field.

AFFI-E, Tandem I-E, S/L I-E, IAD I-E, Coach I-E
Students are our future teach them well