Airman1270 0 #51 June 30, 2008 ... If you go to the World Team website, you will find that AADs are mandatory for participation in their world record jumps. I think trying to build a 400 to 500 Way formation in freefall MIGHT be too dangerous without an AAD. Apparently the World Team's organizers think so... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ - The reason for this might have to do with the fact that the people who organize such events spend much time immersed in a DZ culture in which AAD use is so commonplace that, in their circles, they do not interact with a significant number of jumpers who choose not to use these devices. In recent months I've read of two fatalities which might not have occurred had the victims NOT been wearing AAD's. One incident which comes to mind is the plane crash in Missouri. One of the victims was apparently making her way out the door when the AAD fired, entangling her reserve with the aircraft. AAD's are reliable but not perfect. At times they can misfire. When I'm floating in preparation for a group exit I don't want my reserve suddenly catching air and pulling me over the tail. Nor do I want the added expense and maintenance hassle involved. I can count on one hand how many times I've been in freefall under 2000' and I always knew where I was. Examples given here of DZ's that require AAD's include two Virginia locations. Funny, right near the Washington D.C. area and it's festering population of busybody totalitarian liberals who know what's best for everybody. Coincidence? Cheers, Jon S. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #52 June 30, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Jumping with an AAD beyond student status is and always will be a choice as it should. I think that you're wrong here... please take a look at the Dropzone pages of this site to find where AADs are REQUIRED. Take a look at the Sapnish DZs for example and even some over in the States (Orange VA, Suffolk VA for example) Quote AADs are mandatory at Skydive Orange. In fact they are required at all leading Virginia and Washington DC / Maryland area skydiving places! You also have the choice to *NOT* jump at those DZ's 's advocate> Yes Mike, one does, but that's not how I read the other post - possibly my mis-reading (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #53 June 30, 2008 As I said... I *was* playing the Devil's advocate... Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #54 June 30, 2008 (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #55 June 30, 2008 Quote As I said... I *was* playing the Devil's advocate... I saw his gear....the devil don't have one either! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #56 June 30, 2008 Quote Quote As I said... I *was* playing the Devil's advocate... I saw his gear....the devil don't have one either! So, we should have "sympathy for the devil"? Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #57 June 30, 2008 Let me please introduce myself. I'm a man of wealth and taste. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virtek 0 #58 June 30, 2008 I think that everyone needs to do a proper risk analysis then make their own mind up from the facts rather than what they are told or what their ego says to them. A long time ago I worked for 6 months in s sheet metal factory. My supervisor sniggered and shook his head every time I put goggles on before using grinding tools... after about 2 weeks of me being there he had to go to hospital to get a metal splinter out of his eye.. he wore goggles and didn't snigger and shake his head after that. His attitude reminds me of many skydivers who don't properly weight up the risk one way or the other. Many comments I hear go along the lines of "I know 1 or 2 special/exceptional cases of some deadly problem or a life saved therefore my own argument is confirmed by that case... QED" Seems to me that people's minds are already made up and they are just looking for an example that upholds their decision (this is called confirmation bias by the way) Having looked at the accident reports for non swoopers, I prefer to use an AAD - the benefit of the device outweight the risks as far as my analysis goes. This is as a fairly new jumper who doesn't swoop yet. When I get around to swooping I'll study the accident stats again on how AAD's affect swoopers and make a new determination at that time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrickyDicky 0 #59 July 1, 2008 Quote No one should make you jump without your favorite safety device. If there is a jump you would absolutely not do without your favorite safety device, then you should not do the jump WITH the safety device, either. I hate this argument. It just doesnt make sense. I dont see it as an over reliance on devices, just someone not accepting the risks of jumping without an AAD. A perfectly acceptable choice. Sorry for the analagies, but thats like arguing that you shouldnt drive your car with seatbelts and air bags because you wouldnt be prepared to drive without them. Why not? You're more likely to live with all the safety devices that without, and I dont agree that having the safety devices there makes people start pushing boundaries with regards to safety. The numbers say everything: With ADD: more likely to survive unconsiousness or lack of altitude aware ness. I dont plan to fuck up, it would probably have happened if I didnt have the AAD aswell. UK Skydiver for all your UK skydiving needs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jacketsdb23 49 #60 July 1, 2008 I know some AFF instructors that will not jump with an AFF student without an AAD. So should they not do AFF jumps with an AAD? Just provoking some thoughts.Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen God is Good Beer is Great Swoopers are crazy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,085 #61 July 1, 2008 >Sorry for the analagies, but thats like arguing that you shouldnt drive > your car with seatbelts and air bags because you wouldnt be prepared to >drive without them. No, that's not my point at all. If, someday, you've had a few beers, and you think to yourself "well, it's not all that safe for me to drive right now, but I have an airbag; I'll be fine" then IT IS A BETTER IDEA TO NOT DRIVE AT ALL. (Same thing if the roads are icy, or your tires are getting a little bald.) Airbags are great. But if they allow you to drive in more dangerous conditions than you otherwise would, then they are making you less safe overall. >You're more likely to live with all the safety devices that without, and I >dont agree that having the safety devices there makes people start >pushing boundaries with regards to safety. I know of one guy definitely who died because he relied on his cypres to do more than it could do, and several people who likely died because of over-reliance on a device. It can and does happen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virtek 0 #62 July 2, 2008 Quote I know of one guy definitely who died because he relied on his cypres to do more than it could do, and several people who likely died because of over-reliance on a device. It can and does happen. These looks to me like errors of judgement by the jumpers involved. Errors of judgement should not be used as an argument to stop you using an AAD. Better to educate jumpers about risk than tell them not to use an AAD. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,085 #63 July 2, 2008 >Errors of judgement should not be used as an argument to stop you using an AAD. ?? Errors of judgment are the primary reason people NEED AAD's! Errors in judgment are a fact of life in skydiving. An AAD can hurt you _or_ help you when you make such errors. As I have said dozens of times, AAD's are great safety devices for skydiving. As I have also said dozens of times, if you rely on that AAD to keep you safe on a particular jump, you are much better off not making that jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virtek 0 #64 July 2, 2008 Sounds like we agree, I misread your previous post, sorry man. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybill 22 #65 July 5, 2008 Hi Sherm, AAD or no AAD it does not matter!! To Quote Mike "Sparky" Owens, "You are not now nor will you ever be good enough not to die in this sport!" An AAD, RSL, LHR (a.k.a. Jesus Cord), Sky hook and or what ever will NOT in and of itself save your miserable life! I personally don't have one. MY choice. As far as AAD's, they are a good "Back up" device and that's that. One thing I've noticed over the last few years is the number of jumpers who claim to refuse to skydive unless they have an operational AAD on their rig when they jump!! Only thing I can say is that they have a real good false sense of security with one!! That will kill them faster than not having an AAD!!!! Got that?SCR-2034, SCS-680 III%, Deli-out Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
redlegphi 0 #66 July 5, 2008 One thing I've noticed over the last few years is the number of jumpers who claim to refuse to skydive unless they have an operational reserve on their rig when they jump!! Only thing I can say is that they have a real good false sense of security with one!! That will kill them faster than not having a reserve!!!! Got that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybill 22 #67 July 5, 2008 Hi Red, Well I don't think you've seen what most BASE rigs look like? For starters with jumping from devices that have "N" numbers on them try reading FAR Part 105.43 in full.SCR-2034, SCS-680 III%, Deli-out Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #68 July 5, 2008 His point is equally as valid as yours. The mindset of "This jump is ok because I have a cypres" is, to me, the more dangerous one.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
redlegphi 0 #69 July 5, 2008 You miss my point, which is that an operational AAD, much like an operational reserve, is simply a tool used to further mitigate the risk that we all incur when we jump out of an airplane and that mocking people who like having an operational AAD in their rig makes as much sense as mocking people who like having an operational reserve in their rig. The fact that I won't jump without an operational AAD has nothing to do with having "a real good false sense of security". I have no illusions about the AAD being some miracle machine that will always save me from certain death, any more than I have illusions about my reserve being a miracle piece of fabric that will always save me from certain death. I simply prefer to use the tools available to me to minimize the risk of any jump I choose to do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #70 July 5, 2008 Quote I don't jump an AAD, Neither do I. Had one for about 10 years, never used it. Why renew it?We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
redlegphi 0 #71 July 5, 2008 Quote Quote I don't jump an AAD, Neither do I. Had one for about 10 years, never used it. Why renew it? Perhaps I'm going to the Reserve:AAD well one time too many here, but if you hadn't had to use your reserve for the first 10 years that you owned it, would you have felt comfortable pulling it out (if you were legally allowed to do so)? I understand that reserves tend to be used a lot more than an AAD, but the whole "I haven't needed it yet, so I'll never need it in the future" argument doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
StreetScooby 5 #72 July 6, 2008 Quote would you have felt comfortable pulling it out (if you were legally allowed to do so)? dude, at 2K I'm more than comfortable pulling it out, legal or not. No jury will ever convict you otherwise I've had 4 reserve rides. Many years ago, AADs worked wrong more than they worked right. Lots of people don't trust them, much less rely on them. Be careful who you jump with, and be aware. Don't go beyond your abilities, or the abilities of those around you.We are all engines of karma Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #73 July 6, 2008 Quote Neither do I. Had one for about 10 years, never used it. Why renew it? I'm sure that was just what the last couple people that went in were thinking right before they hit... Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,085 #74 July 6, 2008 >mocking people who like having an operational AAD in their rig makes >as much sense as mocking people who like having an operational reserve >in their rig. 1) No one is "mocking" anyone. 2) You cannot skydive legally without a reserve. BASE jumping with a single canopy system is a great learning experience, and it's one I recommend skydivers experience at some point - because you learn a _lot_ about rigging, gear and accuracy landing. But it's not something you can do on a skydive. >The fact that I won't jump without an operational AAD has nothing to > do with having "a real good false sense of security". If you feel that an AAD turns a jump that's too dangerous for you to make into one is safe enough for you to make, it is possible that you rely on the AAD to do more than it can do. It is an excellent backup, but not a device that makes a skydive significantly safer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
redlegphi 0 #75 July 6, 2008 Quote If you feel that an AAD turns a jump that's too dangerous for you to make into one is safe enough for you to make, it is possible that you rely on the AAD to do more than it can do. It is an excellent backup, but not a device that makes a skydive significantly safer. I don't think I've ever said that I use an AAD because it turns a jump that's too dangerous for me into one that is safe enough for me to make. I don't know why you all continuously misread pro-AAD arguments to say that. As for the significant the increase in safety is using an AAD, significant is a relative word. If one skydiver is alive today because of an AAD, that seems pretty significant to me. In short, much like a reserve, an AAD is something I'd rather have and not need instead of need and not have. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
