should it be required to jump without an AAD?

[shermanator 4]

I don't jump an AAD, primarily because I don't have the money to purchase one. Some of the ways I justify it is that thousands of jumps have been made without one, on much more primitive gear, and they managed to survive.

By not jumping one, my confidence in my gear, and myself, has risen. Therefore, I ask this question:

Should it be required that every jumper make X amount of jumps without an AAD?

CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08
CSA #720

[moto89 0]

I don't jump an AAD for the same reasons you listed, but I don't get any sort of confidence boost from it. I'm comfortable jumping without it, but I don't feel better for not having one.

No way would I ever in a million years think it would even be a half way logical idea to force people to jump without one of the biggest advances in safety in the sport. I don't think AAD's should be mandatory by any means, but it just seems dumb to FORCE people to NOT use a life saving device.

Less talking, more flying.

[mnealtx 0]

No - the gear you use (or don't use) and the level of risk you assume are personal choices.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Squeak 17]

NO
it should not be REQUIRED,
think about it, you force someone to jump without an AAD, and they unfortunately get knocked out, how ya going to view your "requirement" now.

It's like saying you will force people to not wear any other safety devices (seat belts, bike helmets etc..)

They are safety devices for unforeseen circumstances. Your next jump "COULD" be the jump where an AAD saves your life.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[airtwardo 7]

Should it be required that every jumper make X amount of jumps without an AAD?

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Good plan!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[bigway 4]

I reackon YES. And we also jump with only one parachute so that we can also boost the confidence of the packer while we are at it.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[ryoder 1,590]

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I reackon YES. And we also jump with only one parachute so that we can also boost the confidence of the packer while we are at it.

And we should also make X jumps with no audible.
And we should also make X jumps with no altimeter.
And we should also make X jumps on an unmodified round.
And we should also make X jumps on a square with the steering lines removed.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[bigway 4]

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I reackon YES. And we also jump with only one parachute so that we can also boost the confidence of the packer while we are at it.

And we should also make X jumps with no audible.
And we should also make X jumps with no altimeter.
And we should also make X jumps on an unmodified round.
And we should also make X jumps on a square with the steering lines removed.

Can't wait!! You first though.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

No

[ryoder 1,590]

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I reackon YES. And we also jump with only one parachute so that we can also boost the confidence of the packer while we are at it.

And we should also make X jumps with no audible.
And we should also make X jumps with no altimeter.
And we should also make X jumps on an unmodified round.
And we should also make X jumps on a square with the steering lines removed.

Can't wait!! You first though.

I've done all that, (steering lines were due to breakage).
Doesn't mean I'd recommend any of it.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[TheSecret 0]

It always makes me scratch my head that people seem to think that they can plan for when, where, and the type of accident to have. Your kidding yourself if you think you have that much control of the world around you. If you could plan it out, it would not be called and accident, it would be called a deliberate.

Life is good

[mnealtx 0]

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If you could plan it out, it would not be called and accident, it would be called a deliberate.

If the jump is too dangerous to do WITHOUT an AAD, why is it suddenly acceptable because you HAVE an AAD? That's an equally foolish outlook, in my opinion (instructors/coaches are a different matter).

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[tbrown 26]

I made over 500 jumps without any AAD, back in the seventies. We didn't consider them to be safe or reliable in those days. Those were also the days when "no pull / low pull" was the leading cause of death in the sport.

I'm even more surprised at your question after what happened last weekend at your home dropzone, where a highly experienced and respected skydiver died after being unable to pull his reserve handle after a cutaway. The reason may never be known, as only he really knew what went wrong. He had made an informed decision to jump without his AAD while it was away for its 8 year service. I'm sure he considered and weighed the risks and made a not unreasonable decision to jump without it for the month it usually takes to get the job done. Lots of people make the same decision with no adverse consequences.

Tragically, he guessed wrong.

I'm saying this as respectfully as possible, because I know how much pain this has caused everyone, as the memorial service was only held yesterday.

But thankfully, accidents like Shindig's are now a rare occurence thanks to AADs. In the old days we knew far too many good skydivers - and wonderful people - who died this way. I can think of several I knew myself, right here in So Cal (Tom DeMotts, Glory Severt, and jeanni McCombs, to name three right off the top of my head). And I'm VERY please that this type of fatality has ALMOST entirely disappeared. At least now we can focus on how not to do ourselves in under an open canopy.

As we go sailing out the door at altitude, none of us ever knows, "This is the jump where I will need my AAD". Most of us will hopefully never face that jump at all. The rest of us can either thank God we were wearing one that day, or leave our friends and family in a lot of pain and with questions that may never be answered.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[FrancoR 0]

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Some of the ways I justify it is that thousands of jumps have been made without one,

But dozens of jumps have been made with a fatal outcome. There used to be a graph on the old skydiving fatalities page showing how the number of No pull low pull fatalities have decreased with the introduction of a working AAD.

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on much more primitive gear, and they managed to survive.

might have been more primitive but in skydiving the majority of incidents have nothing to do with primitive gear. The failing link is the skydiver and a fix for that can be, a working AAD. That is not the way it should be but that is the way it is.

My answer to your question is NO, but i do think that if a skydiver actually had his AAD fire he should consider if he should not be bowling.

Franco

If it does not cost anything you are the product.

[RALFFERS 0]

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If the jump is too dangerous to do WITHOUT an AAD, why is it suddenly acceptable because you HAVE an AAD?

I agree. Now bare in mind I'm a newbee wanting to learn as much as I can. Therefore, I must ask - is there a difference between a jump that's not to dangerous to have an ADD Vs 1 that is? In my opinion, all jumps are inherently dangerous. However, as it has been said many, many times before - an AAD should never be relied upon over one's training... Having said that, it's yet another safety measure to have just in case; and if such a device is available it doesn't hurt to use it to your advantage. Not only would it have prevented the recent Elsinore incident, but is also an added backup to have in the case of a dislocated shoulder, thus resulting in the very real possibility of not being able to pull the reserve handle.

Dialogue/commentary between Divot, Twardo & myself -

"from your first Oshkosh when the three of us were riding to or from one of

[mnealtx 0]

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If the jump is too dangerous to do WITHOUT an AAD, why is it suddenly acceptable because you HAVE an AAD?

I agree. Now bare in mind I'm a newbee wanting to learn as much as I can. Therefore, I must ask - is there a difference between a jump that's not to dangerous to have an ADD Vs 1 that is? In my opinion, all jumps are inherently dangerous. However, as it has been said many, many times before - an AAD should never be relied upon over one's training... Having said that, it's yet another safety measure to have just in case; and if such a device is available it doesn't hurt to use it to your advantage. Not only would it have prevented the recent Elsinore incident, but is also an added backup to have in the case of a dislocated shoulder, thus resulting in the very real possibility of not being able to pull the reserve handle.

I agree - and that's why I have one, for the reasons you state.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Booster_MPS 0]

Well said tbrown.

Jumping with an AAD beyond student status is and always will be a choice as it should. AAD related/prevented accidents are NOT the problem that we face in this sport. The issue this stands before us now is keeping people alive after they have a fully functional canopy over their head and making sure they make good decisions under that canopy.

Stay safe everybody and take care of each other.

[mjosparky 4]

Quit trying to rationalize not having an AAD yourself. You list yourself as a freefall photographer which means you found the money to by a camera setup. If you choose to jump without an AAD that’s your call. Why should others follow your lead and not take advantage of available safety devices. How would you respond to those that say all jumpers MUST have an AAD to jump?

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[hackish 8]

Does driving to work without a seatbelt make you more confident in your driving abilities? A seatbelt can't guarantee you will survive a crash of course. You know, I've driven 150,000km in the last 8 years not needing my seatbelt.

-Michael

[shropshire 0]

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Jumping with an AAD beyond student status is and always will be a choice as it should.

I think that you're wrong here... please take a look at the Dropzone pages of this site to find where AADs are REQUIRED.

Take a look at the Sapnish DZs for example

and even some over in the States (Orange VA, Suffolk VA for example)

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AADs are mandatory at Skydive Orange. In fact they are required at all leading Virginia and Washington DC / Maryland area skydiving places!

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[strop45 0]

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Some of the ways I justify it is that thousands of jumps have been made without one, on much more primitive gear, and they managed to survive.

This is flawed logic. Many people have driven drunk and managed to get home without trouble. This does NOT imply that driving drunk is a good idea.

Look at the reasons for jumping with one, the risks that having one creates and then make your decision.

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[Andy9o8 2]

You people are all under arrest by the Analogy Police.

No, Sherm, it's a dumb idea. It's kind of like...
never mind.

[AndyMan 7]

It's a dumb idea, for all the reasons other people have listed.

I'll go one step further, and ask why the hell you aren't using one right now?

Seriously! You've got a family right? One of the things that I tell my wife when I go skydiving is that I do everything possible to keep myself safe. That includes using an AAD on most jumps.

If you're not using an AAD, then you can't tell your family you're doing everything to stay safe - or you're lieing.

People a lot more skilled than you or I have died when an AAD would have saved their lives.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[kallend 2,106]

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Some of the ways I justify it is that thousands of jumps have been made without one,

But dozens of jumps have been made with a fatal outcome. There used to be a graph on the old skydiving fatalities page showing how the number of No pull low pull fatalities have decreased with the introduction of a working AAD.

Here's one (it's not from the page you mentiioned but it shows the same data).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[shermanator 4]

The replies are exactly what I expected by my question.

I now ask, why is it that there is not also a strong outcry against those who put way too much confidence in their AAD, making statements such as "cut away and just wait for your AAD to fire"


shoot, I had more to say, after getting responses, but now that I have been up for 38 hours for work, my brain is fried and I can't remember.

CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08
CSA #720