feuergnom 29 #1 July 20, 2008 i know this is a tricky one, but i'll give it a try most of the times the noise ratio in incidents is just a plain pin in the ass. examples? here we go as soon as a new incident is posted, it doesn't take longer than 3 posts before someone asks for wl, canopy, currency - as if these things wouldn't be told/posted as soon as anybody (still?) willing to contribute to these threads cares to go online. comprende? posters (especially the low-jumpnumber-crowd) demanding legal action from s&ta's, USPA; FAA whatever - if you can not take care of yourself and of others and contribute for a safe environment in your personal area - stop crying for a big-daddy-substitute sorting things out for you. this wish is wether new nor original or wanted. if you don't have anything else to write - well simply don't as for people still posting condolences: WAKE UP BABIES - for posts like these there is a separate forum. if this is all you have to contribute - don't post a nice example of posting stupidity would be this : QuoteI totally agree! Maybe we should set a day and get everyone possible to commit to boycott that day of skydiving! Maybe than the DZO and USPA will put their heads together and actually come up with a plan and a penalty for failing to comply with it! It is such a STUPID reason for people to die! could somebody get me heavy pain killers? basically the incidents threads tend to be reposts of earlier incidents/fatalities - why can't people just shut up and take them as reminders. the lessons are all out there. and if you have nothing to add of value - just don't hit the frigging post-button thx for ventingThe universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tsalnukt 1 #2 July 20, 2008 I thought I was the only one that thought that way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
drdive 0 #3 July 20, 2008 <<<Quotei know this is a tricky one, but i'll give it a try most of the times the noise ratio in incidents is just a plain pin in the ass. examples? here we go as soon as a new incident is posted, it doesnt't take longer than 3 posts before someone asks for wl, canopy, currency - as if these things wouldn't be told/posted as soon as anybody (still?) willing to contribute to these threads cares to go online. comprende? posters (especially the low-jumpnumer-crowd) demanding legal action from s&ta's, USPA; FAA whatever - if you can not take care of yourself and of others and contribute for a safe environment in your personal area - stop crying for a big-dady-substitute sorting things out for you. this wish is wether new nor original or wanted. if you don't have anything else to write - well simply don't as for people stil posting condolences: WAKE UP BABIES - for posts like these there is a separate forum. if this is all you have to contribute - don't post a nice example of posting stupidity would be this : QuoteI totally agree! Maybe we should set a day and get everyone possible to commit to boycott that day of skydiving! Maybe than the DZO and USPA will put their heads together and actually come up with a plan and a penalty for failing to comply with it! It is such a STUPID reason for people to die! could somebody get me heavy pain killers? basically the incidents threads tend to be reposts of earlier incidents/fatalities - why can't people just shut up and take them as reminders. the lessons are all out there. and if you have nothing to add of value - just don't hit the frigging post-button>>> Yeah - I hear ya talking. But in the recent incident you are taking quotes from, there were many many replies before anyone posted ANY details about what happened. Unless there are more details in the last few hours, the details are still very sketchy at best. It is hard to learn from the incident when there are no details. I know it is early, yet. Ed"We saved your gear. Now you can sell it when you get out of the hospital and upsize!!" "K-Dub" " Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FrancoR 0 #4 July 20, 2008 I could not agree more. I just got back from the incidents forum reading the same thread, looking to learn something. I got annoyed from going through all the zero value posts and post that are not according to the guidelines and stopped reading. I would be fine if the moderators just delete those posts and not even hassle messages to the posters. Sorry, needed to vent too. FrancoIf it does not cost anything you are the product. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy9o8 2 #5 July 20, 2008 I also wish that friends of the deceased (and I've lost good friends, too) would stop scolding people for speculating, or defensively offering blanket defenses of the jumpers' or DZO's "safety". Mistakes can be and are made by everyone, and speculation is part of the process of figuring out what happened - and how to avoid it in the future. If you're (understandibly) so grief-stricken that reading an incident thread offends you, please don't read it, or give yourself a bit more time until you do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #6 July 20, 2008 QuoteI also wish that friends of the deceased (and I've lost good friends, too) would stop scolding people for speculating, or defensively offering blanket defenses of the jumpers' or DZO's "safety". Mistakes can be and are made by everyone, and speculation is part of the process of figuring out what happened - and how to avoid it in the future. If you're (understandibly) so grief-stricken that reading an incident thread offends you, please don't read it, or give yourself a bit more time until you do. I take the reverse approach: Maybe the speculators should just shut-up and respect the injured and friends of the injured, and let the facts come out when they are known and ready. If you want to speculate about something, do it in the General Skydiving forum in a generic sense, but not in Incidents about a specific case. And my pet peeve is the know-it-all holier-than-thou types who just can't wait to chime in and repeatedly post the obvious "lessons" for everyone else, who are "too dumb" to recognize them. Here are the lessons for all you dumb people who aren't perfect: 1) A bigger canopy may have prevented this accident. 2) A better helmet may have prevented this accident. 3) More altitude warning devices may have prevented this accident. 4) Keeping your head on a swivel may have prevented this accident. 5) Not doing high performance landings may have prevented this accident. There, that covers about 90% of what happens. Now we don't need to hear them anymore, okay? Having a dozen people repeatedly say them over and over again here online doesn't help, and doesn't change anything. Teaching lessons to the new guys directly at your DZ can. Flame away, oh perfect ones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites feuergnom 29 #7 July 20, 2008 pheeew - it's good not to be aloneThe universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flyhi 24 #8 July 21, 2008 Quotea nice example of posting stupidity would be this : -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I totally agree! Maybe we should set a day and get everyone possible to commit to boycott that day of skydiving! Maybe than the DZO and USPA will put their heads together and actually come up with a plan and a penalty for failing to comply with it! It is such a STUPID reason for people to die! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- could somebody get me heavy pain killers? So are you saying the boycott is off, 'cause I already have the shirts made up and am working on the bumper stickers?Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #9 July 21, 2008 Quotepheeew - it's good not to be alone Well, all traces of this discussion are likely to disappear when the moderators come back to work on Monday. So then you'll feel alone again, because saying such things are politically incorrect, and must be suppressed. If you want to be popular and never have your posts in Incidents forum deleted, then just chime in after every accident with some comment like this: "What was his wing loading? How many jumps did he have on that type of canopy? Come on folks, when are you going to learn? Buy a bigger canopy, and keep your head on a swivel. How many times do we have to say it?"And that will make you an expert on accident investigation. But unlike those types of messages, this one will probably be deleted before the night is over. If you still see it after noon on Monday, I'll be surprised. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #10 July 21, 2008 Quote Here are the lessons for all you dumb people who aren't perfect: 1) A bigger canopy may have prevented this accident. 2) A better helmet may have prevented this accident. 3) More altitude warning devices may have prevented this accident. 4) Keeping your head on a swivel may have prevented this accident. 5) Not doing high performance landings may have prevented this accident. There, that covers about 90% of what happens. Now we don't need to hear them anymore, okay? Having a dozen people repeatedly say them over and over again here online doesn't help, and doesn't change anything. Teaching lessons to the new guys directly at your DZ can. Flame away, oh perfect ones. Some people only take these lessons seriously when there is a body as a result of it. Not an AFF-I telling them in ground school that you can die if you disregard them. Theoretical discussion never is as engrossing as actual events. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it...the accidents prove this, and not having the same conversations afterwards only make it even more likely to be true. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites piisfish 140 #11 July 21, 2008 QuoteHere are the lessons for all you dumb people who aren't perfect: 1) A bigger canopy may have prevented this accident. 2) A better helmet may have prevented this accident. 3) More altitude warning devices may have prevented this accident. 4) Keeping your head on a swivel may have prevented this accident. 5) Not doing high performance landings may have prevented this accident. 6)staying on a couch may have prevented this accident.scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #12 July 21, 2008 If you don't like the noise change the channel. Problem solved. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites feuergnom 29 #13 July 21, 2008 dear mr. most respected senior jumper on dorkzone ... nevermind The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy_Copland 0 #14 July 21, 2008 At least the boycott shed some humour in the what was a sad thread.1338 People aint made of nothin' but water and shit. Until morale improves, the beatings will continue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites virgin-burner 1 #15 July 21, 2008 Quote dear mr. most respected senior jumper on dorkzone ... nevermind “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #16 July 21, 2008 I'll hit a few of these posts in one shot. Most of the Incidents moderators jump every weekend when the weather is nice so we are not around a computer to trim the speculation as it starts and instead we come back and find a thread started with 45 replies and are in a situation where we can not delete all of the speculation and stupid posts since there are usually some good pieces of information in a reply. The way the software is set up is that if we remove a post any repies to it or those replies are removed also. In some cases we will remove a large portion of a thread and then copy and paste the valid information back into the thread since it was so valuable. The nature of the incidents forum is to present information to a large audience and to have them be able to read it and then ask questions that will hopefuly be answered by people more directly involved with the incident (fatality or injury) so that lessons can be learned and that mistake avoided in the future to make everyone safer. That means that hard questions and opinions might appear that offend some of those people that just lost a friend. A few years back when one of my good friends died some of the comments and speculation on here really offended me for a few weeks, I know the pain that those families and friends are going through and try to help minimize it when possible. Removing posts offends a lot of people, expecially when their post was removed when it was caught in the crossfire and probally could have stayed on its own merits but was removed anyways. I know more then one person that is ranting in this thread has messaged the moderator team when their posts were removed complaining about the action we took. We are really screwed no matter what we do - if we are super strict and remove anything that is not basically a statement from the DZ stating the facts then everyone is pissed since all of their posts were deleted and that the DZ must be covering something up since thier specific question was not answered. If we allow the posts to stay then a whole different crowd is offended at the level of speculation and off topic conversations that persist in the forum. Its a hard line to follow between doing too much moderating or too little, if our line needs to move in one direction or the other we as a team need to know the forum members opinions on it. Having rants sents to us via PM about how stupid we are and what a bunch of idiots we are usually doesn't help your case but if you can explain to us exactly where you feel the line should be drawn then we can listen to the collective opinion and try to follow it.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites feuergnom 29 #17 July 21, 2008 the original post was not intended to put blame on the moderators. i think you have to sift through more shit than the average poster can come up with and i think you do a fine job in keeping the average noise levels on an acceptable level. and i know that this has been discussed already, although not lately Quote The nature of the incidents forum is to present information to a large audience and to have them be able to read it makes perfect sense Quote and then ask questions that will hopefully be answered by people more directly involved with the incident and that is where i think the chaos starts because every newminted 50-jumps randomflier feels entiteled to demand action or jumps to conclusions usually getting backed up by senior postwhores. Quote so that lessons can be learned and that mistake avoided in the future to make everyone safer sometimes i think it would be easier to form categories for incidents and just add dates and places whenever someting happens with links to previous discussions. /sarcasm off/ i have no idea how to solve this, but in the last year the quality of the posters contributions has gone down The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Merkur 1 #18 July 21, 2008 Generally agreed with some remarks: Quote ... as soon as a new incident is posted, it doesn't take longer than 3 posts before someone asks for wl, canopy, currency - as if these things wouldn't be told/posted as soon as anybody (still?) willing to contribute to these threads cares to go online. comprende? Agreed, however, if it is someone's first time to post an incident, he might just have forgotten to post all available details. So a little reminder might help. Quote posters (especially the low-jumpnumber-crowd) demanding legal action from s&ta's, USPA; FAA whatever - if you can not take care of yourself and of others and contribute for a safe environment in your personal area - stop crying for a big-daddy-substitute sorting things out for you. this wish is wether new nor original or wanted. if you don't have anything else to write - well simply don't "low-jumpnumber-crowd" as you call them will often make mistakes - be it under canopy or here in a forum. If they call for action where no action is necessary/suitable, why not educating them by explaining the reason behind. That truly is annoying after a certain repetition - just look at it like teaching first-graders. Quote as for people still posting condolences: WAKE UP BABIES - for posts like these there is a separate forum. if this is all you have to contribute - don't post Well, there's nothing to argue here. Quote ... basically the incidents threads tend to be reposts of earlier incidents/fatalities - why can't people just shut up and take them as reminders. the lessons are all out there. and if you have nothing to add of value - just don't hit the frigging post-button thx for venting That again is the "teaching first-graders"-category. A lot of people just do not use search (including myself sometimes) and - hopefully - a lot of new folks sign up here all the time. So, the question that has been asked and answered a thousand times is a new one for them. Maybe they are even thinking "Hey, I got a contribution here, that noone ever has probably thought about". Depending on my mood, I sometimes would love to deny them to ever post here again . On the other hand, in most times it's better (and more educating) to take a deep breath - relax - and answer again to a question that has been asked a trazillion times before. Having said all this --> Read the rules before posting!! blues, M.vSCR No.94 Don't dream your life - live your dream! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skybytch 273 #19 July 21, 2008 You really expect the incidents forum to be any different from any of the other forums? Finding signal amidst the noise is nearly impossible around here and has been for several years. Kinda sad, isn't it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FrancoR 0 #20 July 21, 2008 How about automatically delaying every reply to a new incidents thread by three days. That would give the moderators time to delete posts and prevent irrelevant replys on the speculation from these replies. After a couple days there should usually be more facts available to start a discussion with less speculation.If it does not cost anything you are the product. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andrewwhyte 1 #21 July 21, 2008 I think the mods generally keep the incidents forum to the rules. I do wish they were more vigilant at removing the condolence posts rather than posting a reminder. As far as no speculating, I disagree. John's rant about people asking what kind of helmet they were wearing makes no sense to me. First of all asking for info is not speculation, it is gathering info. Secondly his claim that we all know that wearing a better helmet would have helped, and doesn't need repeating is flat out wrong. One constant I have found over the years is that most things relating to safety need to be repeated (yes I am that guy on the DZ who constantly tells the newer jumpers why they shouldn't do that shit). We recently buried a friend who we forgot to repeat the warnings about towing a canopy behind a truck. It had been too long and I guess those of us who remember just assumed that everyone knew that and it didn't bear repeating. We were wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NickDG 23 #22 July 21, 2008 I have a friend who's a HAM radio guy and I was listening in with him one night and couldn't believe what I heard. In the course of his normal conversations with other HAMS from all over the world (which is pretty damn cool) there were always a few people who'd break in to say dirty words, call my friend an asshole, jam the signals and just generally disrupt things. He told me that these were unlicensed people using HAM equipment illegally and that it was ruining the hobby. My though was, geez, it's just like the internet. I remember when people bounced before there was an internet. Living in an area with a lot of DZs the word would spread quickly and would go something like this. You'd be packing or something and someone would walk by and say, "Hey, they just had a bounce over at Drop Zone X-ray." And you'd simply ask who and how? "It was Johnny," and the reason was generally no pull, low pull, or an emergency procedure gone awry. Two seconds later you knew that somehow Johnny made a mistake and went back to packing. And it was basically case closed except for raising a beer later in Johnny's honor. A few days later you may learn Johnny had a gear problem, maybe to the point he was doomed before he left the aircraft. But the end result was still the same, Johnny messed up. In that regard nothing much has changed. However, even back then, like now, there were always a few people on the DZ who didn't take news like this well. Even when they didn't know the person. They'd go to pieces, sometimes cry, or carry on about quitting the sport and so on. Sometimes I'd tell them, "Hey people fly, people die." And wonder what part of that they didn't get? But most people like that simply weren't suited for skydiving and eventually they worked it out or they just quietly disappeared from the scene. Does anyone, besides me, feel there are more and more of those types then there used to be? When we began to discuss these incidents online the medium changed but the people basically remained the same. Except you do hear a few different things nowadays. Like when the guy walked passed to tell me Johnny was dead if I'd said, "That a tough break, are you on this next load?" I would never hear, "Naw, I scratched, I have to go say a prayer for Johnny." Johnny is beyond prayer now. If you are going to do that then pray that we have Instructors who take their responsibilities seriously, pray that your DZO isn't a fast buck artist who's cutting corners behind the scenes on aircraft maintenance. And pray that some meat missile doesn't take you out in the pattern. Also, and I have this problem in spades, I give people too much credit for being literate enough to write in words what they are really trying to say. But the fact is less and less folks can do that. So when someone writes something that sounds ridiculous we shouldn't automatically surmise it's what they meant. I need to remind myself of that all the time. The other side of that coin is you can write what you mean but someone else lacks the reading comprehension to get it. I guess what I mean is don't over react to what you read in those threads. Also, if the next weekend you happen to be over at Drop Zone X-ray and you see Johnny's best friend you wouldn't walk over and say, "Gee, Johnny really screwed up on that one." No, you'd throw them a hug and that was it. But here in the online world it's different and it's the bereaved that need to understand that. Yes, the world is more complicated now. The gear is more complicated and being used by people who understand it less and less. We went from a time in the 1970s when you could never make a five minute call because it took twenty minutes to put your gut gear on. To the 1980s when gear was probably the simplest and easiest to use and you could make a now call by getting geared up on the run. To nowadays with so many hooks, lanyards, and gizmos many jumpers only know what the handles do (and sometimes not even that) and that's about it. It's the same across the whole spectrum of life. It used to be if you wanted to play music you had to actually learn to play an instrument. Now there's Guitar Hero where you can look and sound good right out of the box. Are our DZs filling up with Skydiving Heroes? NickD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #23 July 21, 2008 That was an excellent posting - thank you for saying it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cocheese 0 #24 July 21, 2008 Quote dear mr. most respected senior jumper on dorkzone ... nevermind I have more respect for you and your post than..... nevermind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites feuergnom 29 #25 July 21, 2008 thanks to NickDG for being so precise so many timesThe universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. 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FrancoR 0 #4 July 20, 2008 I could not agree more. I just got back from the incidents forum reading the same thread, looking to learn something. I got annoyed from going through all the zero value posts and post that are not according to the guidelines and stopped reading. I would be fine if the moderators just delete those posts and not even hassle messages to the posters. Sorry, needed to vent too. FrancoIf it does not cost anything you are the product. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #5 July 20, 2008 I also wish that friends of the deceased (and I've lost good friends, too) would stop scolding people for speculating, or defensively offering blanket defenses of the jumpers' or DZO's "safety". Mistakes can be and are made by everyone, and speculation is part of the process of figuring out what happened - and how to avoid it in the future. If you're (understandibly) so grief-stricken that reading an incident thread offends you, please don't read it, or give yourself a bit more time until you do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #6 July 20, 2008 QuoteI also wish that friends of the deceased (and I've lost good friends, too) would stop scolding people for speculating, or defensively offering blanket defenses of the jumpers' or DZO's "safety". Mistakes can be and are made by everyone, and speculation is part of the process of figuring out what happened - and how to avoid it in the future. If you're (understandibly) so grief-stricken that reading an incident thread offends you, please don't read it, or give yourself a bit more time until you do. I take the reverse approach: Maybe the speculators should just shut-up and respect the injured and friends of the injured, and let the facts come out when they are known and ready. If you want to speculate about something, do it in the General Skydiving forum in a generic sense, but not in Incidents about a specific case. And my pet peeve is the know-it-all holier-than-thou types who just can't wait to chime in and repeatedly post the obvious "lessons" for everyone else, who are "too dumb" to recognize them. Here are the lessons for all you dumb people who aren't perfect: 1) A bigger canopy may have prevented this accident. 2) A better helmet may have prevented this accident. 3) More altitude warning devices may have prevented this accident. 4) Keeping your head on a swivel may have prevented this accident. 5) Not doing high performance landings may have prevented this accident. There, that covers about 90% of what happens. Now we don't need to hear them anymore, okay? Having a dozen people repeatedly say them over and over again here online doesn't help, and doesn't change anything. Teaching lessons to the new guys directly at your DZ can. Flame away, oh perfect ones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 29 #7 July 20, 2008 pheeew - it's good not to be aloneThe universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyhi 24 #8 July 21, 2008 Quotea nice example of posting stupidity would be this : -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I totally agree! Maybe we should set a day and get everyone possible to commit to boycott that day of skydiving! Maybe than the DZO and USPA will put their heads together and actually come up with a plan and a penalty for failing to comply with it! It is such a STUPID reason for people to die! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- could somebody get me heavy pain killers? So are you saying the boycott is off, 'cause I already have the shirts made up and am working on the bumper stickers?Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #9 July 21, 2008 Quotepheeew - it's good not to be alone Well, all traces of this discussion are likely to disappear when the moderators come back to work on Monday. So then you'll feel alone again, because saying such things are politically incorrect, and must be suppressed. If you want to be popular and never have your posts in Incidents forum deleted, then just chime in after every accident with some comment like this: "What was his wing loading? How many jumps did he have on that type of canopy? Come on folks, when are you going to learn? Buy a bigger canopy, and keep your head on a swivel. How many times do we have to say it?"And that will make you an expert on accident investigation. But unlike those types of messages, this one will probably be deleted before the night is over. If you still see it after noon on Monday, I'll be surprised. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #10 July 21, 2008 Quote Here are the lessons for all you dumb people who aren't perfect: 1) A bigger canopy may have prevented this accident. 2) A better helmet may have prevented this accident. 3) More altitude warning devices may have prevented this accident. 4) Keeping your head on a swivel may have prevented this accident. 5) Not doing high performance landings may have prevented this accident. There, that covers about 90% of what happens. Now we don't need to hear them anymore, okay? Having a dozen people repeatedly say them over and over again here online doesn't help, and doesn't change anything. Teaching lessons to the new guys directly at your DZ can. Flame away, oh perfect ones. Some people only take these lessons seriously when there is a body as a result of it. Not an AFF-I telling them in ground school that you can die if you disregard them. Theoretical discussion never is as engrossing as actual events. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it...the accidents prove this, and not having the same conversations afterwards only make it even more likely to be true. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 140 #11 July 21, 2008 QuoteHere are the lessons for all you dumb people who aren't perfect: 1) A bigger canopy may have prevented this accident. 2) A better helmet may have prevented this accident. 3) More altitude warning devices may have prevented this accident. 4) Keeping your head on a swivel may have prevented this accident. 5) Not doing high performance landings may have prevented this accident. 6)staying on a couch may have prevented this accident.scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #12 July 21, 2008 If you don't like the noise change the channel. Problem solved. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 29 #13 July 21, 2008 dear mr. most respected senior jumper on dorkzone ... nevermind The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy_Copland 0 #14 July 21, 2008 At least the boycott shed some humour in the what was a sad thread.1338 People aint made of nothin' but water and shit. Until morale improves, the beatings will continue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #15 July 21, 2008 Quote dear mr. most respected senior jumper on dorkzone ... nevermind “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #16 July 21, 2008 I'll hit a few of these posts in one shot. Most of the Incidents moderators jump every weekend when the weather is nice so we are not around a computer to trim the speculation as it starts and instead we come back and find a thread started with 45 replies and are in a situation where we can not delete all of the speculation and stupid posts since there are usually some good pieces of information in a reply. The way the software is set up is that if we remove a post any repies to it or those replies are removed also. In some cases we will remove a large portion of a thread and then copy and paste the valid information back into the thread since it was so valuable. The nature of the incidents forum is to present information to a large audience and to have them be able to read it and then ask questions that will hopefuly be answered by people more directly involved with the incident (fatality or injury) so that lessons can be learned and that mistake avoided in the future to make everyone safer. That means that hard questions and opinions might appear that offend some of those people that just lost a friend. A few years back when one of my good friends died some of the comments and speculation on here really offended me for a few weeks, I know the pain that those families and friends are going through and try to help minimize it when possible. Removing posts offends a lot of people, expecially when their post was removed when it was caught in the crossfire and probally could have stayed on its own merits but was removed anyways. I know more then one person that is ranting in this thread has messaged the moderator team when their posts were removed complaining about the action we took. We are really screwed no matter what we do - if we are super strict and remove anything that is not basically a statement from the DZ stating the facts then everyone is pissed since all of their posts were deleted and that the DZ must be covering something up since thier specific question was not answered. If we allow the posts to stay then a whole different crowd is offended at the level of speculation and off topic conversations that persist in the forum. Its a hard line to follow between doing too much moderating or too little, if our line needs to move in one direction or the other we as a team need to know the forum members opinions on it. Having rants sents to us via PM about how stupid we are and what a bunch of idiots we are usually doesn't help your case but if you can explain to us exactly where you feel the line should be drawn then we can listen to the collective opinion and try to follow it.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 29 #17 July 21, 2008 the original post was not intended to put blame on the moderators. i think you have to sift through more shit than the average poster can come up with and i think you do a fine job in keeping the average noise levels on an acceptable level. and i know that this has been discussed already, although not lately Quote The nature of the incidents forum is to present information to a large audience and to have them be able to read it makes perfect sense Quote and then ask questions that will hopefully be answered by people more directly involved with the incident and that is where i think the chaos starts because every newminted 50-jumps randomflier feels entiteled to demand action or jumps to conclusions usually getting backed up by senior postwhores. Quote so that lessons can be learned and that mistake avoided in the future to make everyone safer sometimes i think it would be easier to form categories for incidents and just add dates and places whenever someting happens with links to previous discussions. /sarcasm off/ i have no idea how to solve this, but in the last year the quality of the posters contributions has gone down The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Merkur 1 #18 July 21, 2008 Generally agreed with some remarks: Quote ... as soon as a new incident is posted, it doesn't take longer than 3 posts before someone asks for wl, canopy, currency - as if these things wouldn't be told/posted as soon as anybody (still?) willing to contribute to these threads cares to go online. comprende? Agreed, however, if it is someone's first time to post an incident, he might just have forgotten to post all available details. So a little reminder might help. Quote posters (especially the low-jumpnumber-crowd) demanding legal action from s&ta's, USPA; FAA whatever - if you can not take care of yourself and of others and contribute for a safe environment in your personal area - stop crying for a big-daddy-substitute sorting things out for you. this wish is wether new nor original or wanted. if you don't have anything else to write - well simply don't "low-jumpnumber-crowd" as you call them will often make mistakes - be it under canopy or here in a forum. If they call for action where no action is necessary/suitable, why not educating them by explaining the reason behind. That truly is annoying after a certain repetition - just look at it like teaching first-graders. Quote as for people still posting condolences: WAKE UP BABIES - for posts like these there is a separate forum. if this is all you have to contribute - don't post Well, there's nothing to argue here. Quote ... basically the incidents threads tend to be reposts of earlier incidents/fatalities - why can't people just shut up and take them as reminders. the lessons are all out there. and if you have nothing to add of value - just don't hit the frigging post-button thx for venting That again is the "teaching first-graders"-category. A lot of people just do not use search (including myself sometimes) and - hopefully - a lot of new folks sign up here all the time. So, the question that has been asked and answered a thousand times is a new one for them. Maybe they are even thinking "Hey, I got a contribution here, that noone ever has probably thought about". Depending on my mood, I sometimes would love to deny them to ever post here again . On the other hand, in most times it's better (and more educating) to take a deep breath - relax - and answer again to a question that has been asked a trazillion times before. Having said all this --> Read the rules before posting!! blues, M.vSCR No.94 Don't dream your life - live your dream! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #19 July 21, 2008 You really expect the incidents forum to be any different from any of the other forums? Finding signal amidst the noise is nearly impossible around here and has been for several years. Kinda sad, isn't it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrancoR 0 #20 July 21, 2008 How about automatically delaying every reply to a new incidents thread by three days. That would give the moderators time to delete posts and prevent irrelevant replys on the speculation from these replies. After a couple days there should usually be more facts available to start a discussion with less speculation.If it does not cost anything you are the product. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #21 July 21, 2008 I think the mods generally keep the incidents forum to the rules. I do wish they were more vigilant at removing the condolence posts rather than posting a reminder. As far as no speculating, I disagree. John's rant about people asking what kind of helmet they were wearing makes no sense to me. First of all asking for info is not speculation, it is gathering info. Secondly his claim that we all know that wearing a better helmet would have helped, and doesn't need repeating is flat out wrong. One constant I have found over the years is that most things relating to safety need to be repeated (yes I am that guy on the DZ who constantly tells the newer jumpers why they shouldn't do that shit). We recently buried a friend who we forgot to repeat the warnings about towing a canopy behind a truck. It had been too long and I guess those of us who remember just assumed that everyone knew that and it didn't bear repeating. We were wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #22 July 21, 2008 I have a friend who's a HAM radio guy and I was listening in with him one night and couldn't believe what I heard. In the course of his normal conversations with other HAMS from all over the world (which is pretty damn cool) there were always a few people who'd break in to say dirty words, call my friend an asshole, jam the signals and just generally disrupt things. He told me that these were unlicensed people using HAM equipment illegally and that it was ruining the hobby. My though was, geez, it's just like the internet. I remember when people bounced before there was an internet. Living in an area with a lot of DZs the word would spread quickly and would go something like this. You'd be packing or something and someone would walk by and say, "Hey, they just had a bounce over at Drop Zone X-ray." And you'd simply ask who and how? "It was Johnny," and the reason was generally no pull, low pull, or an emergency procedure gone awry. Two seconds later you knew that somehow Johnny made a mistake and went back to packing. And it was basically case closed except for raising a beer later in Johnny's honor. A few days later you may learn Johnny had a gear problem, maybe to the point he was doomed before he left the aircraft. But the end result was still the same, Johnny messed up. In that regard nothing much has changed. However, even back then, like now, there were always a few people on the DZ who didn't take news like this well. Even when they didn't know the person. They'd go to pieces, sometimes cry, or carry on about quitting the sport and so on. Sometimes I'd tell them, "Hey people fly, people die." And wonder what part of that they didn't get? But most people like that simply weren't suited for skydiving and eventually they worked it out or they just quietly disappeared from the scene. Does anyone, besides me, feel there are more and more of those types then there used to be? When we began to discuss these incidents online the medium changed but the people basically remained the same. Except you do hear a few different things nowadays. Like when the guy walked passed to tell me Johnny was dead if I'd said, "That a tough break, are you on this next load?" I would never hear, "Naw, I scratched, I have to go say a prayer for Johnny." Johnny is beyond prayer now. If you are going to do that then pray that we have Instructors who take their responsibilities seriously, pray that your DZO isn't a fast buck artist who's cutting corners behind the scenes on aircraft maintenance. And pray that some meat missile doesn't take you out in the pattern. Also, and I have this problem in spades, I give people too much credit for being literate enough to write in words what they are really trying to say. But the fact is less and less folks can do that. So when someone writes something that sounds ridiculous we shouldn't automatically surmise it's what they meant. I need to remind myself of that all the time. The other side of that coin is you can write what you mean but someone else lacks the reading comprehension to get it. I guess what I mean is don't over react to what you read in those threads. Also, if the next weekend you happen to be over at Drop Zone X-ray and you see Johnny's best friend you wouldn't walk over and say, "Gee, Johnny really screwed up on that one." No, you'd throw them a hug and that was it. But here in the online world it's different and it's the bereaved that need to understand that. Yes, the world is more complicated now. The gear is more complicated and being used by people who understand it less and less. We went from a time in the 1970s when you could never make a five minute call because it took twenty minutes to put your gut gear on. To the 1980s when gear was probably the simplest and easiest to use and you could make a now call by getting geared up on the run. To nowadays with so many hooks, lanyards, and gizmos many jumpers only know what the handles do (and sometimes not even that) and that's about it. It's the same across the whole spectrum of life. It used to be if you wanted to play music you had to actually learn to play an instrument. Now there's Guitar Hero where you can look and sound good right out of the box. Are our DZs filling up with Skydiving Heroes? NickD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #23 July 21, 2008 That was an excellent posting - thank you for saying it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cocheese 0 #24 July 21, 2008 Quote dear mr. most respected senior jumper on dorkzone ... nevermind I have more respect for you and your post than..... nevermind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 29 #25 July 21, 2008 thanks to NickDG for being so precise so many timesThe universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
