AFF1 Crash Landing

[wrightskyguy 1]

There's nothing wrong with keeping a duplicate, but I've got real issues with keeping a "secret" log for instructors only. Students pay good money and are entitled to an honest and open critique of their performance.

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

[tetra316 0]

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There's nothing wrong with keeping a duplicate, but I've got real issues with keeping a "secret" log for instructors only. Students pay good money and are entitled to an honest and open critique of their performance.

My understanding is it's not for that reason. But rather if the original instructor is not there that day then the second instructor gets an "instructor to instructor" briefing of the student's past performance via the comments in the dz log. I'm sure that students are getting an honest picture of their performance during the debrief (hopefully).

[NickDG 23]

>>There's nothing wrong with keeping a duplicate, but I've got real issues with keeping a "secret" log for instructors only. Students pay good money and are entitled to an honest and open critique of their performance.
I'll throw in the towel now . . .

There's no way to make some people understand human interaction and the difference between sometimes needing to lower the boom on someone and sometimes using a velvet glove.

I almost lost a job one time when I caught an Instructor yelling at a level three student because she couldn't, in the heat of the moment, remember what the acronym PLF meant. The student was in tears and this ape was just that, an ape. The DZO sided with the ape and I should have quit.

I'm sorry to say it, but it's been my experience that about 40 percent of Instructor corps, should have their sorry asses kicked out the front gate . . .

NickD

[Hunt_Joshua_G 0]

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I almost lost a job one time when I caught an Instructor yelling at a level three student because she couldn't, in the heat of the moment, remember what the acronym PLF meant. The student was in tears and this ape was just that, an ape. The DZO sided with the ape and I should have quit.

I'm sorry to say it, but it's been my experience that about 40 percent of Instructor corps, should have their sorry asses kicked out the front gate . . .

NickD

Good thing for me that I can take someone yelling in my face. Its better than them not telling me anything at all.

"When the people look like ants-PULL,
When the ants look like people-PRAY."
"Only skydivers know why the birds sing."

[tetra316 0]

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I almost lost a job one time when I caught an Instructor yelling at a level three student because she couldn't, in the heat of the moment, remember what the acronym PLF meant. The student was in tears and this ape was just that, an ape. The DZO sided with the ape and I should have quit.

I'm sorry to say it, but it's been my experience that about 40 percent of Instructor corps, should have their sorry asses kicked out the front gate . . .

NickD

Good thing for me that I can take someone yelling in my face. Its better than them not telling me anything at all.

If you don't mind the yelling in your face why don't you join the Army where they actually pay you for the privilege of yelling in your face versus paying the dz to have someone yell at you.



Ok bad example but the point is there is almost never a need to yell at someone you are supposed to be training. That's just plain bad instructing. If they cannot get their point across without yelling they have no business instructing.

[wrightskyguy 1]

I think we're getting way off track here. When did anyone say anything about yelling at students, I'm talking about being up front and honest with people that pay good money and deserve it. Blowing sunshine up a students dress or writing one thing in a students log then something different in a secret instructors only log is just wrong, If someone can justify in their own mind lying to their students or not telling them the whole truth, then more power to them, but they won't do it on a jump that I'm on.

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

[tetra316 0]

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I think we're getting way off track here. When did anyone say anything about yelling at students, I'm talking about being up front and honest with people that pay good money and deserve it. Blowing sunshine up a students dress or writing one thing in a students log then something different in a secret instructors only log is just wrong, If someone can justify in their own mind lying to their students or not telling them the whole truth, then more power to them, but they won't do it on a jump that I'm on.

Read the replies, yelling was mentioned in the process. You are obviously not reading my posts. I'm in no way advocating "blowing sunshine up a student's dress". Which by the way I've never seen a student wear a dress at the dz when jumping Have you ever instructed in anything outside the dz? If you have you would know exactly what I'm talking about. Debriefs to the students should be honest and truthful. However, when passing off students to another instructor, in debriefing the new instructor things may be said that you would not say to the student in order to make sure the focus in training is on what's needed. The student's do not need to hear all the little details, only what's important. Too much information is a distraction and takes away from learning.

I'm done. You are obviously not getting my point. Which is the same as Nick's btw.

[bjjman 0]

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Somehow I thought there would be more in a first jump log.

And now you know my pain. (It's not just me peregrinerose )

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Albert Einstein

[bjjman 0]

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But in civilian jumping, these people are hiring me with good money to teach them to skydive.

Bingo. I paid good money; and all I got was this lousy logbook with no helpful information.

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So guess what kind of Skydiving Instructor I am?

Sounds like you're one that writes something worthwhile in logbooks.

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Albert Einstein

[bjjman 0]

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There's nothing wrong with keeping a duplicate, but I've got real issues with keeping a "secret" log for instructors only. Students pay good money and are entitled to an honest and open critique of their performance.

+1. Anything less is a disservice and is dishonest.

As far as the yelling thing, that instructor was obviously a moron, but no more so than the instructor that doesn't critique a student when they should.

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds." -Albert Einstein

[wrightskyguy 1]

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Have you ever instructed in anything outside the dz?

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Yes, I was teaching when you were still poopin yellow, but that has nothing to do with anything here.

However, when passing off students to another instructor, in debriefing the new instructor things may be said that you would not say to the student in order to make sure the focus in training is on what's needed.

I'm not talking about little details, I'm talking about not properly debriefing your students.

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I'm done. You are obviously not getting my point.


***Sorry, I guess I'm just a dumb ass.

Which is the same as Nick's btw.

***I'm sure that makes Nick feel much better.

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

[peregrinerose 0]

You, Nick and I all keep saying the same thing... talking about both the good and the weak aspects of the skydive is important, not ignoring the good and focusing on the bad (or vice versa). I haven't seen anyone yet advocate blowing smoke, saying is something is good if it's not, etc.

I was responsible for filling out my own log book from jump 2-3 or so... it's MY log of MY jump, not my instructors. I encourage my students to do the same. I read over what they wrote and add a note or two, but it's their log, not mine. I let them read the DZ log too, there are no secrets from students, ever. I probably spend 30-60 minutes on every AFF debrief (depending on level, student, and how the jump went).

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[wrightskyguy 1]

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You, Nick and I all keep saying the same thing... talking about both the good and the weak aspects of the skydive is important, not ignoring the good and focusing on the bad (or vice versa). I haven't seen anyone yet advocate blowing smoke, saying is something is good if it's not, etc.

***Perhaps you need to re-read this thread, starting at the point where lvl 1 was described as a free ride.

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

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[peregrinerose 0]

I disagree with Lv1 being a 'free ride' and passing a student that doesn't pull. But with regard to lack of debriefs and blowing smoke... no one has advocated that.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[wrightskyguy 1]

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I disagree with Lv1 being a 'free ride' and passing a student that doesn't pull. But with regard to lack of debriefs and blowing smoke... no one has advocated that.

***Ok then, since we're pretty close to agreeing on something, maybe we can be freinds again.

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

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