Hunt_Joshua_G 0 #1 August 18, 2008 Well the title says it all. I did my AFF levle one and landed just a little hard, in fact I think I left a dent in the ground. the exit and freefall were good but I could not see my altimiter and by the time I noticed that my instructor was giving me the pull now signal it was too late he pulled it for me. My lines were twisted but I cleared that no prob. The ride down was good but when it came time to flare I flared way to high and somehow forgot to hold the flare and do a PLF instead i let the flare go and said hello to the ground real hard. my instructor came running over to see if i was ok but I was already on my feet. what happened was that my raideo didn't work so I was on my own the whole ride down. Still fun as hell and somehow I passed the Lvl1. in a few weeks I'll be back for Lvl 2."When the people look like ants-PULL, When the ants look like people-PRAY." "Only skydivers know why the birds sing." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wrightskyguy 1 #2 August 18, 2008 I'm not a hard ass, but I couldn't give a student a "pass" on a jump where I had to pull for him. Good luck with your future jumps. John Wright World's most beloved skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hunt_Joshua_G 0 #3 August 18, 2008 I have no idea why he passed me. he just did."When the people look like ants-PULL, When the ants look like people-PRAY." "Only skydivers know why the birds sing." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chubba 0 #4 August 18, 2008 Well done Every skydive is a learning experience, don't let your toggles back up, you don't want to break yourself so early in your jumping career. Radio's fail, mine failed on my AFF2, make sure you're fully confident to fly by yourself. Quote I have no idea why he passed me. he just did. I had the same situation on my AFF4. My rig caught the door on exit, started off terrible. I span like a rocket when I looked at my altimeter. I dislocated my shoulder on deployment (turning + spanker opening). He said I did good and passed me... AFF5 was one of the best skydives I did. Trust your instructor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hunt_Joshua_G 0 #5 August 18, 2008 I messed up and learned a hard lesson. I'll know better next time"When the people look like ants-PULL, When the ants look like people-PRAY." "Only skydivers know why the birds sing." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #6 August 18, 2008 >>I'm not a hard ass, but I couldn't give a student a "pass" on a jump where I had to pull for him. Good luck with your future jumps.It's a real life thing Instructors don't learn in the AFF certification course. And it's how it works in most places I've been an Instructor. It's always hard enough to get students to come back for a second jump, and it's almost impossible when you send them home as failures. So on level one, as long as they don't die, or really scare the piss out you, they pass. But on level two the free ride ends . . . Besides, there's not enough difference between level one and level two to hold them back. NickD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
auburnguy 0 #7 August 18, 2008 quit crying and get back in the air"If you don't like your job, you don't strike! You just go in every day, and do it really half assed. That's the American way." - Homer Simpson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grimmie 186 #8 August 18, 2008 If you were the student with the blue canopy this afternoon, thanks for the show!Now don't do that shit anymore! PLF! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GaryRay 0 #9 August 18, 2008 just wait until your altimeter fails ya, then your in for a real fun ride :).JewBag. www.jewbag.wordpress.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hunt_Joshua_G 0 #10 August 18, 2008 Quote If you were the student with the blue canopy this afternoon, thanks for the show!Now don't do that shit anymore! PLF! I was under a green canopy at Skydive San Diego"When the people look like ants-PULL, When the ants look like people-PRAY." "Only skydivers know why the birds sing." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chubba 0 #11 August 18, 2008 Quotejust wait until your altimeter fails ya, then your in for a real fun ride :). Hopefully that day never comes. I start getting worried around 5k visually so I think I would be alright... by the time 3k comes the ground is moving quite fast. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GaryRay 0 #12 August 18, 2008 QuoteQuotejust wait until your altimeter fails ya, then your in for a real fun ride :). Hopefully that day never comes. I start getting worried around 5k visually so I think I would be alright... by the time 3k comes the ground is moving quite fast. FWIW not having an altimeter during the free fall isnt as bad as not having it under canopy, you can normally feel approx. what altitude you are at in free fall, and then there are always landmarks around the DZ, mountains, hills, weather balloons, stuff like that ('snore anyways). but trying to figure out when to enter the landing pattern, and when to make the correct turns in the pattern to keep you and everyone else safe around you is where it gets difficult, for me anyways. but when you land where you want to land without a alti its definately a confidence booster. since that day i try not to rely on my alti as much, just kind of check it to gage my eyes. so far so good.JewBag. www.jewbag.wordpress.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #13 August 18, 2008 Quote quit crying and get back in the air classic! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wrightskyguy 1 #14 August 18, 2008 QuoteIt's a real life thing Instructors don't learn in the AFF certification course. And it's how it works in most places I've been an Instructor. It's always hard enough to get students to come back for a second jump, and it's almost impossible when you send them home as failures. So on level one, as long as they don't die, or really scare the piss out you, they pass. But on level two the free ride ends . . . Besides, there's not enough difference between level one and level two to hold them back. NickD *** No free rides on any level. I want students to come back too, but not if their not learning anything. John Wright World's most beloved skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #15 August 18, 2008 QuoteI could not see my altimiter and by the time I noticed that my instructor was giving me the pull now signal it was too late... You should have been glancing at it long before pull time, and therefore should have noticed the difficulty much earlier. Be sure you resolve this problem before your next jump. Tell your instructors of this difficulty, and make sure it is positioned so that you can see it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #16 August 18, 2008 If I do remember correctly the AFF CAT "A" standards say "Deploy with assistance" and in later Catergories "Without". MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peregrinerose 0 #17 August 18, 2008 QuoteIf I do remember correctly the AFF CAT "A" standards say "Deploy with assistance" and in later Catergories "Without". Matt To me 'deploy with assistance' means the instructor might help guide the hand, not the instructor pulls for the student. If a student is clearly altitude aware and tries to pull themselves but misses the hackey and I end up pulling for them because of that, I may pass them on a level 1 (but only a level 1, nothing else), but if the student makes no effort to pull themselves, they will repeat the level. If they are not altitude aware while their only real freefall task is altitude awareness, I want them to gain that skill before adding the skills of turning/forward motion. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 16 #18 August 18, 2008 Quote FWIW not having an altimeter during the free fall isnt as bad as not having it under canopy, I disagree. After a few dozen jumps, you should be able to eyeball your landing pattern and turn to final without any reference to an altimeter. Landing on target is all about sight picture, not "such and such an altitude at such and such a point." I've got several hundred low jumps without an altimeter, no problem. Andy F. of the Red Bull skydiving team told me he doesn't check his alti before a swoop, just eyeballs it and hucks a 720. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lowpull 0 #19 August 18, 2008 no pull, no pass period. Like John Wright, I am going to do everything to keep the student motivated and coming back,but, no pull, no pass. You Instructor did you a great dis-service by passing you, and setting you up for lower standards for all the rest of your jumps. "but you pulled for me on Cat A and I passed, so why did you fail me for not pulling on Cat D?" Find better instructors. Ralph Nichols Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hunt_Joshua_G 0 #20 August 18, 2008 Quoteno pull, no pass You Instructor did you a great dis-service by passing you, and setting you up for lower standards for all the rest of your jumps. Find better instructors. Ralph Nichols Yeah i'm gonna get someone else next time. This is a sport I want to do right not half way."When the people look like ants-PULL, When the ants look like people-PRAY." "Only skydivers know why the birds sing." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wrightskyguy 1 #21 August 18, 2008 QuoteIf I do remember correctly the AFF CAT "A" standards say "Deploy with assistance" and in later Catergories "Without". *** The instructor pulling for you goes beyond assistance. I believe what the book is saying is that you can be prompted to pull or possibly have the instructor help you in some other way. If the student didn't deploy, then he did'nt meet one of the few fundamental objectives of Of the CAT A/LVL 1 skydive. John Wright World's most beloved skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #22 August 18, 2008 I actually agree with you and P. I didn't write "pulled by Instructor" and was not trying to imply that, my appalogies. I would be a bit concerned with the OP statement of "I could not see my Altimeter" and also wonder what happened to the top end sequence where the Altimeter plays a major role. I also see where Nick is coming from and can see that side of the coin as well, if you liken it to a first Tandem jump (some students come do AFF with the same mind set). MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #23 August 18, 2008 Quote Quote FWIW not having an altimeter during the free fall isnt as bad as not having it under canopy, I disagree. After a few dozen jumps, you should be able to eyeball your landing pattern and turn to final without any reference to an altimeter. Landing on target is all about sight picture, not "such and such an altitude at such and such a point." I've got several hundred low jumps without an altimeter, no problem. Andy F. of the Red Bull skydiving team told me he doesn't check his alti before a swoop, just eyeballs it and hucks a 720. At the very least, you leave a much smaller divot for not knowing your altitude under canopy than in freefall. Elsinore is perhaps the easiest DZ in the state (world?) for knowing when to pull in time if you don't use your altimeter. The ridge line is 1-2 miles west, and at an ideal height. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NickDG 23 #24 August 18, 2008 >>Find better instructorsRalph, First off, is that a good thing to say to a student you don't know about an Instructor you don't know. And now you've got the kid going Instructor shopping . . . In most AFF programs, except for a little forward motion, AFF level two is already a repeat of AFF level one. And that's not a coincidence, it's how the system is designed to give the student some leeway on his first AFF jump. AFF level one is all about getting your feet wet. If a student has the cods to even attempt it, and they don't do anything really out of character for a first jump student in freefall or under canopy I'll always sign them off for level 2. Plus many level ones never come back for level two anyway. So if you write in their logbooks how bad they did they'll have to live with that for the rest of the lives. What's the point of that? I remember being a young fresh AFF Jumpmaster back in 1984 and going by the book on every level one. I'd fully debrief, do any re-training if I didn't pass them, or teach them and practice the TLOs for level two, but you know what? You're talking to a kid that just wants to shout at the moon after making their first parachute jump so just let them. Sometimes being a good AFF Instructor (I'm not saying you aren't) means knowing when to lower the boom on someone, but also knowing when to be more of a guide, mentor, cheer leader, or even in some cases a father figure. And just so you completely understand me, after level one it's all about completing the TLOs right down the line no questions asked. But that first jump is a big day in people's lives, and as long as they are able to stand there and talk to me after it's over, I'm not going to piss on their parade. And in all but the rarest cases a student with a pull issue on level one, if they return for level two and get appropriate remedial training (plus after mentally beating themselves up for not pulling) they do just fine. You said something earlier about my setting a bad precedent for later jumps. But I think you did that. Now when ever Hunt_Joshua_G has a problem of his own making he's going to go looking for another Instructor . . . NickD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dreaming13000 1 #25 August 18, 2008 Quote Quote If you were the student with the blue canopy this afternoon, thanks for the show!Now don't do that shit anymore! PLF! I was under a green canopy at Skydive San Diego Sunday? Yep, you flared really high.....we were all saying "hoooooooold it!" and you let up a lil, not too bad though you did meet the ground rather abrutly. DO NOT rely on those radios. Here is what worked for me during early AFF when you feel the first "OH SHIT FLARE" take a really deep breath then push that flare through and hold it! who was your instructors? edit:(ps, you are required to pull your own parachute to save your life, I would not trust anyone else with that) blue skies! keep it up and good luck jess"A man only gets in life what he is believing for, nothing more and nothing less" Kenneth Hagen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 1 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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JohnRich 4 #15 August 18, 2008 QuoteI could not see my altimiter and by the time I noticed that my instructor was giving me the pull now signal it was too late... You should have been glancing at it long before pull time, and therefore should have noticed the difficulty much earlier. Be sure you resolve this problem before your next jump. Tell your instructors of this difficulty, and make sure it is positioned so that you can see it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #16 August 18, 2008 If I do remember correctly the AFF CAT "A" standards say "Deploy with assistance" and in later Catergories "Without". MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peregrinerose 0 #17 August 18, 2008 QuoteIf I do remember correctly the AFF CAT "A" standards say "Deploy with assistance" and in later Catergories "Without". Matt To me 'deploy with assistance' means the instructor might help guide the hand, not the instructor pulls for the student. If a student is clearly altitude aware and tries to pull themselves but misses the hackey and I end up pulling for them because of that, I may pass them on a level 1 (but only a level 1, nothing else), but if the student makes no effort to pull themselves, they will repeat the level. If they are not altitude aware while their only real freefall task is altitude awareness, I want them to gain that skill before adding the skills of turning/forward motion. Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #18 August 18, 2008 Quote FWIW not having an altimeter during the free fall isnt as bad as not having it under canopy, I disagree. After a few dozen jumps, you should be able to eyeball your landing pattern and turn to final without any reference to an altimeter. Landing on target is all about sight picture, not "such and such an altitude at such and such a point." I've got several hundred low jumps without an altimeter, no problem. Andy F. of the Red Bull skydiving team told me he doesn't check his alti before a swoop, just eyeballs it and hucks a 720. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lowpull 0 #19 August 18, 2008 no pull, no pass period. Like John Wright, I am going to do everything to keep the student motivated and coming back,but, no pull, no pass. You Instructor did you a great dis-service by passing you, and setting you up for lower standards for all the rest of your jumps. "but you pulled for me on Cat A and I passed, so why did you fail me for not pulling on Cat D?" Find better instructors. Ralph Nichols Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hunt_Joshua_G 0 #20 August 18, 2008 Quoteno pull, no pass You Instructor did you a great dis-service by passing you, and setting you up for lower standards for all the rest of your jumps. Find better instructors. Ralph Nichols Yeah i'm gonna get someone else next time. This is a sport I want to do right not half way."When the people look like ants-PULL, When the ants look like people-PRAY." "Only skydivers know why the birds sing." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wrightskyguy 1 #21 August 18, 2008 QuoteIf I do remember correctly the AFF CAT "A" standards say "Deploy with assistance" and in later Catergories "Without". *** The instructor pulling for you goes beyond assistance. I believe what the book is saying is that you can be prompted to pull or possibly have the instructor help you in some other way. If the student didn't deploy, then he did'nt meet one of the few fundamental objectives of Of the CAT A/LVL 1 skydive. John Wright World's most beloved skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matthewcline 0 #22 August 18, 2008 I actually agree with you and P. I didn't write "pulled by Instructor" and was not trying to imply that, my appalogies. I would be a bit concerned with the OP statement of "I could not see my Altimeter" and also wonder what happened to the top end sequence where the Altimeter plays a major role. I also see where Nick is coming from and can see that side of the coin as well, if you liken it to a first Tandem jump (some students come do AFF with the same mind set). MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #23 August 18, 2008 Quote Quote FWIW not having an altimeter during the free fall isnt as bad as not having it under canopy, I disagree. After a few dozen jumps, you should be able to eyeball your landing pattern and turn to final without any reference to an altimeter. Landing on target is all about sight picture, not "such and such an altitude at such and such a point." I've got several hundred low jumps without an altimeter, no problem. Andy F. of the Red Bull skydiving team told me he doesn't check his alti before a swoop, just eyeballs it and hucks a 720. At the very least, you leave a much smaller divot for not knowing your altitude under canopy than in freefall. Elsinore is perhaps the easiest DZ in the state (world?) for knowing when to pull in time if you don't use your altimeter. The ridge line is 1-2 miles west, and at an ideal height. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NickDG 23 #24 August 18, 2008 >>Find better instructorsRalph, First off, is that a good thing to say to a student you don't know about an Instructor you don't know. And now you've got the kid going Instructor shopping . . . In most AFF programs, except for a little forward motion, AFF level two is already a repeat of AFF level one. And that's not a coincidence, it's how the system is designed to give the student some leeway on his first AFF jump. AFF level one is all about getting your feet wet. If a student has the cods to even attempt it, and they don't do anything really out of character for a first jump student in freefall or under canopy I'll always sign them off for level 2. Plus many level ones never come back for level two anyway. So if you write in their logbooks how bad they did they'll have to live with that for the rest of the lives. What's the point of that? I remember being a young fresh AFF Jumpmaster back in 1984 and going by the book on every level one. I'd fully debrief, do any re-training if I didn't pass them, or teach them and practice the TLOs for level two, but you know what? You're talking to a kid that just wants to shout at the moon after making their first parachute jump so just let them. Sometimes being a good AFF Instructor (I'm not saying you aren't) means knowing when to lower the boom on someone, but also knowing when to be more of a guide, mentor, cheer leader, or even in some cases a father figure. And just so you completely understand me, after level one it's all about completing the TLOs right down the line no questions asked. But that first jump is a big day in people's lives, and as long as they are able to stand there and talk to me after it's over, I'm not going to piss on their parade. And in all but the rarest cases a student with a pull issue on level one, if they return for level two and get appropriate remedial training (plus after mentally beating themselves up for not pulling) they do just fine. You said something earlier about my setting a bad precedent for later jumps. But I think you did that. Now when ever Hunt_Joshua_G has a problem of his own making he's going to go looking for another Instructor . . . NickD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dreaming13000 1 #25 August 18, 2008 Quote Quote If you were the student with the blue canopy this afternoon, thanks for the show!Now don't do that shit anymore! PLF! I was under a green canopy at Skydive San Diego Sunday? Yep, you flared really high.....we were all saying "hoooooooold it!" and you let up a lil, not too bad though you did meet the ground rather abrutly. DO NOT rely on those radios. Here is what worked for me during early AFF when you feel the first "OH SHIT FLARE" take a really deep breath then push that flare through and hold it! who was your instructors? edit:(ps, you are required to pull your own parachute to save your life, I would not trust anyone else with that) blue skies! keep it up and good luck jess"A man only gets in life what he is believing for, nothing more and nothing less" Kenneth Hagen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 1 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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matthewcline 0 #22 August 18, 2008 I actually agree with you and P. I didn't write "pulled by Instructor" and was not trying to imply that, my appalogies. I would be a bit concerned with the OP statement of "I could not see my Altimeter" and also wonder what happened to the top end sequence where the Altimeter plays a major role. I also see where Nick is coming from and can see that side of the coin as well, if you liken it to a first Tandem jump (some students come do AFF with the same mind set). MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #23 August 18, 2008 Quote Quote FWIW not having an altimeter during the free fall isnt as bad as not having it under canopy, I disagree. After a few dozen jumps, you should be able to eyeball your landing pattern and turn to final without any reference to an altimeter. Landing on target is all about sight picture, not "such and such an altitude at such and such a point." I've got several hundred low jumps without an altimeter, no problem. Andy F. of the Red Bull skydiving team told me he doesn't check his alti before a swoop, just eyeballs it and hucks a 720. At the very least, you leave a much smaller divot for not knowing your altitude under canopy than in freefall. Elsinore is perhaps the easiest DZ in the state (world?) for knowing when to pull in time if you don't use your altimeter. The ridge line is 1-2 miles west, and at an ideal height. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #24 August 18, 2008 >>Find better instructorsRalph, First off, is that a good thing to say to a student you don't know about an Instructor you don't know. And now you've got the kid going Instructor shopping . . . In most AFF programs, except for a little forward motion, AFF level two is already a repeat of AFF level one. And that's not a coincidence, it's how the system is designed to give the student some leeway on his first AFF jump. AFF level one is all about getting your feet wet. If a student has the cods to even attempt it, and they don't do anything really out of character for a first jump student in freefall or under canopy I'll always sign them off for level 2. Plus many level ones never come back for level two anyway. So if you write in their logbooks how bad they did they'll have to live with that for the rest of the lives. What's the point of that? I remember being a young fresh AFF Jumpmaster back in 1984 and going by the book on every level one. I'd fully debrief, do any re-training if I didn't pass them, or teach them and practice the TLOs for level two, but you know what? You're talking to a kid that just wants to shout at the moon after making their first parachute jump so just let them. Sometimes being a good AFF Instructor (I'm not saying you aren't) means knowing when to lower the boom on someone, but also knowing when to be more of a guide, mentor, cheer leader, or even in some cases a father figure. And just so you completely understand me, after level one it's all about completing the TLOs right down the line no questions asked. But that first jump is a big day in people's lives, and as long as they are able to stand there and talk to me after it's over, I'm not going to piss on their parade. And in all but the rarest cases a student with a pull issue on level one, if they return for level two and get appropriate remedial training (plus after mentally beating themselves up for not pulling) they do just fine. You said something earlier about my setting a bad precedent for later jumps. But I think you did that. Now when ever Hunt_Joshua_G has a problem of his own making he's going to go looking for another Instructor . . . NickD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreaming13000 1 #25 August 18, 2008 Quote Quote If you were the student with the blue canopy this afternoon, thanks for the show!Now don't do that shit anymore! PLF! I was under a green canopy at Skydive San Diego Sunday? Yep, you flared really high.....we were all saying "hoooooooold it!" and you let up a lil, not too bad though you did meet the ground rather abrutly. DO NOT rely on those radios. Here is what worked for me during early AFF when you feel the first "OH SHIT FLARE" take a really deep breath then push that flare through and hold it! who was your instructors? edit:(ps, you are required to pull your own parachute to save your life, I would not trust anyone else with that) blue skies! keep it up and good luck jess"A man only gets in life what he is believing for, nothing more and nothing less" Kenneth Hagen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
