Tunnel vs Freefall

[PeregrineFalcon 0]

So, I did 5 minutes of tunnel time today and before I started, they told me to put my arms waaayyyy out and below my chin rather than the lazy-W position. I tried both and have to admit that I was more stable their way. Under freefall, I always felt stable with the lazy-W as long as I arched.

When I got out, I told one of the tunnel instrctors the difference and he said, "Yeah, we correct skydivers' positions all the time here." (Don't know if he was being arrogant or funny or just factual.)

So, my question is: With the tunnel instructor's advice, was I more stable because it's generally a more stable position or was it just that the wind tunnel doesn't really accurately simulate freefalling?

Off topic: I saw a guy I met at the DZ two days ago and got to see him do the mantis position. Really cool. I want to try that next.

[AggieDave 6]

The "lazy W" is an old technique that worked well for many people for many years. Techniques have advanced, just like the rest of skydiving. You were taught a modern body position.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[PeregrineFalcon 0]

Quote

The "lazy W" is an old technique that worked well for many people for many years. Techniques have advanced, just like the rest of skydiving. You were taught a modern body position.

Ah, ok. Thanks. So, now I'm wondering why I was taught the lazy-W in the first place. I'm guessing it's because it's good for AFFers who need to focus on altitude awareness and arch and get to more modern positions later on. If I'm wrong in that guess, let me know.

[LouDiamond 1]

The lazy W is not an out dated method and for 99% of the skydiving population is perfectly fine for most skydiving. Before moving onto the Mantis position or any advanced technique, it helps to developed the basic skills sufficiently. It's like a foundation of a house. If the foundation is not strong, the rest of the house cannot be expected to be any better. Crawl, walk and then run. I cannot count the hours I have spent in the tunnel re-teaching people the basics of things like turning properly and breaking bad habits formed from wanting to run before learning to walk. Master the basics first and you will not go wrong.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[AggieDave 6]

I'm not saying learn mantis, I'm saying that a lazy W and broom stick turns, etc will cause more harm then good when learning. A solid neutral body position that has the arms up higher gives a more solid base for more advanced techniques like mantis and centerpoint turns.

However, like all of skydiving, there will be disagreements of opinion.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

I'm saying that a lazy W and broom stick turns, etc will cause more harm then good when learning

And you base that statement on what? Please explain how it does more harm. What do you suggest as a better teaching method then?


Edit: for the sake of clarification, tell me what you consider the lazy W.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[AggieDave 6]

Lazy W is fingertips about ear high. Are we on the same page?

I'm basing my opinion on personal experience and coaching I've received from top notch coaches.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

Lazy W is fingertips about ear high. Are we on the same page?

I'm basing my opinion on personal experience and coaching I've received from top notch coaches.

So we are in agreement, we are basically talking about the standard box man/neutral body position where the arms are not above or below the torso and if the hands were brought in towards the head the thumbs would be in the ears?


If this is the case, please explain how it does more harm. What do you suggest as a better teaching method then?

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[danielcroft 2]

I've got about 1:45 in the tunnel & as you can tell, 76 jumps. Please keep that in mind when reading my comments.

I personally feel that the tunnel is quite a bit different than free fall. It doesn't seem the same to me. I can learn techniques in the tunnel but I have to apply them to free fall and think about it before I can make them work. I have a friend with a few hundred jumps who had some issues from improving his sit in the tunnel, he says the way he needed to fly in the tunnel was different to the air. In the tunnel, he needed to catch a lot more air.

As for different body positions, the (possibly misguided) impression I get is that mantis is generally used by more serious RW people for relative work and most other people use the box man (lazyw as you call it). I think the main reason for that is most people either get into RW or FF and either progress their belly skills (mantis being more compact) or their FF skills (and stick with box man for deployment).

Maybe the puppy chasers can tell us if mantis is actually more efficient or not, I'm not sure.

Link to some mantis info on the BPA site: http://www.bpa.org.uk/skydive/pages/articles/apr01/chicksrockapr.htm

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

I have a friend with a few hundred jumps who had some issues from improving his sit in the tunnel, he says the way he needed to fly in the tunnel was different to the air. In the tunnel, he needed to catch a lot more air.

That is true. In the tunnel you have to fly/lean a bit further back when in a sit than when in the sky.However, if you can sit fly in the tunnel, you won't have any issues in the sky. The opposite isn't always true.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[BDashe 0]

Quote

However, if you can sit fly in the tunnel, you won't have any issues in the sky. The opposite isn't always true.

Agreed. Also have a rig on in the sky which makes for slightly altered flying. Tunnel slowed my sit from 160ish+ to 145ish avg. very cool

So there I was...

Making friends and playing nice since 1983

[Broke 0]

minute per minute tunnel is still a better value

Divot your source for all things Hillbilly.
Anvil Brother 84
SCR 14192

[AggieDave 6]

Looking at the diagram that you linked to, no we are not talking about the same thing and we both call neutral the same thing.

Scott, standup and put your arms in neutral. Now lower your hands about 6-8". Like you're holding onto a broom stick going through your ear lobes. That's what I'm calling a lazy-w. Its a position that prevents proper arm movement for turning, it prevents proper docking techniques...well, you know just as well as I do the bag habits having your arms back that far will do.

Its something I've seen from a lot of old-school jumpers and students that weren't taught correctly.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[huge 0]

I did 4 mins in tunnel between my AFF2 and AFF3. Like you I was told by the tunnel instructor to put my arms out and I did. I also did it for next 10 jumps out of the plane and really mastered art of backsliding

[Fast 0]

I can fly boxman, mantis, and many other various arm/leg positions. As far as I am concerned trying to teach an AFF student anything other than basic boxman (essentially "lazy w") is pointless. Mantis isn't something they can pick up on the first go. Even when you go to the tunnel as a wuffo, they don't teach you mantis if you are just doing the "first time experience." (At least they weren't last time I saw wuffos in the tunnel)

AFF students have enough going on as it is, let alone trying to balance head high in a mantis position. I think it's inherently more unstable and requires a greater sense of what is going on. It is also less conducive to instructor corrections. It's much harder for me as an AFFI to fix what they are doing when they have their hands down in front of their face. At least that is my experience. Much akin to the fact that I when I teach tracking, I instruct them to attempt it for the first time with their arms in a T shape with their body, and to sweep them back more on subsequent attempts. They need to learn to walk before they run. I also teach tracking with legs at shoulder width, despite the fact that I track feet together (and you can track better that way). They learn that down the road, they can't start with the advanced stuff, for the average student, it's too much to grasp.

I don't have a problem teaching someone how to fly that way once they are late in coach jumps or post-A. By then they don't need so much hand holding to get through a skydive. I would also have to guess that students are taught with arm position more retracted because they tend to have their legs tucked in and 90% of the students that have problems, have backsliding problems. Having their hands back a bit helps with that.

Most of skydiving is spent unlearning bad habits from the ground. The best skydivers just do so more quickly. Even better skydivers learn how to use all body positions to achieve what they want.

As far as the original poster goes, don't just bust this out on your coaches/instructors. Talk to them about it, no surprises please!

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[NickDG 23]

I was going to stay out of this one, but you're killing me here, Dave . . .

If I, as an AFF Instructor, sent a newly graduated student to you, as a coach, and that same student later asked me why I taught him some "outdated" method then you and I would have to go for a walk and talk. But I guess we'll settle for a sit and read . . .

Let's start with the fact we're talking about two kinds of students. Primary students (AFF I-VIII) and graduated students (prior to "A" License). And there is more of a difference between those two designations than between a jumper with 100 and 200 jumps or a jumper with a 1000 and 5000 jumps.

As a primary Instructor some things we teach are set in stone. Things like overall safety issues, gear emergencies, aircraft emergencies, etc., and some things are more free form. And one of those things is basic freefall stability and maneuverability techniques. Primary students, unlike you or me, cannot just naturally use their entire body to make subtle movements in freefall to turn and move around in the sky. They need, at first, exaggerated movements as they test for themselves what actions produces what reactions. It's like you can explain to someone how to ride a bicycle 'till blue in the face, but until they actually try it, get all wobbly, and fall off a few times, they aren't going to get it. And at this point you wouldn't complicate things by reminding them to keep only the balls of their feet on the pedals.

When working with primary students one the most important things to know is when to reign in a student and when to let them go. And I've found from experience in this area letting them find their own way is best. If a student can hold a heading, if they can turn in control and stop those turns, if they can move forward and back, and up and down, I don't care where their arms are as long as they are getting the job done.

Let's look at it another way. Say you join the Air force and get selected to fly the F-16. Do they just stick you in a dual place F-16 and start teaching you? No, because your control inputs on the stick would be so ham handed a slight right turn would turn into a full roll to the right. So they first put you into a plane that's a lot slower with a fatter wing so you can be all goofy as you explore what action produces what reaction without getting into too much trouble. Until you get subtle.

Now let's get to the essence of this, Dave. As skydivers is there really only one correct way to fly in the sky? If so that's news to me. You can call me old school but I think skydiving is a freedom of expression thing and the person who docks last on a hundred way can do so with one hand scratching their butt as long as they get the job done. And over the years I've seen, and enjoyed seeing, many unorthodox types of flying that works for people. And I'd rather see that than a "you must but your arms in this position" cookie cutter approach to skydiving. "Oh yeah, you must get in lock step, you must conform, you must trust in the State and the Great Leader . . ."

And yes, Dave, I'm exaggerating your point for those who don't read subtlety well. When I learned to skydive this wasn't much of an issue as I was alone in freefall. Nobody was there throwing me signals, nobody was there adjusting my body position, and nobody was there to stop me when I spun. All I got was, "Okay kid, go up and try this!" So let's talk now about the "mantis" position. I can fly that way. And I do if I'm turning points. But otherwise, especially when flying with AFF students, I fly wide. And I tell students on the ground to do the same. I tell them to, "Fly like an eagle!" What will happen is, over the span of a few jumps, as they get the feel of things they will close up their basic position and it's a joy to watch. They are learning to fly right before your eyes. As for myself I fly wide with them because I might need the power to move in a hurry. Many times I've seen students look at me and smile like a child on their first bike. "Look, Daddy, I'm doing it!" But then they suddenly lose it and I need to close the three feet between us right now. And I can start and stop faster with everything hanging out there.

The mantis is used in formation point turning and in the tunnels for practical reasons. In point turning you are trying to stay in tight with your team mates and in the tunnels there just isn't a whole lot of room. So the mantis in those two areas is appropriate. And when a tunnel instructor says they "correct skydivers all the time" I took that different then you might have. I took it as corrected them as to tunnel flight, not as to skydiving flight. And if that's what he actually did mean he's wrong.

Now one other thing thing, Dave. And I saved what really bothers me to last. Even if I was acting in a coach capacity with a graduated student and that student told me something his primary Instructor said I would never in a million years say his Instructor taught him something "outdated." And believe me there are some mediocre Instructors out there and I've heard things I considered outright dangerous. But I'd just say, "Okay, but here's a little trick I learned," and I would just explain it in a way that makes the student see the light without denigrating his previous instruction or Instructors. Because when you bag on their previous Instructors what are you really doing? In the student's eyes you're making us all look like idiots, yourself included, and doing it when they need confidence in all of us the most.

They next to last thing is the cutesy way some newer people re-invent the wheel. Let's go back to the Mantis. In order to promote it you first gave the "old" way a new name with an implied sneer to it. "The Lazy W!" WTF is that? It's like RW became "Belly Fly!" Please give me the respect of a lifetime of freefall. I don't call free flyers "lawn darts" like most of my older buddies do - I call it doing Vrw. And I rarely say Free Fly out loud because it denotes the rest of us are tied to some kind of string or something. But among us experienced jumpers even that's a little thing to be cheerfully argued over a beer. But around students, even though we keep it light, airy and as fun as possible, underneath it all everything is a deadly serious gunfight.

It's why I think the entire coach program is ass backwards. Of course I believe we can't just turn students loose like we once did. The skies are now too dangerous for that. But I believe the coach position should be reserved for only two classes of jumpers. Very experienced primary Instructors as right now I can't fully teach a student everything I learned about skydiving over 30 years. There's no room for it in the current format of the AFF program plus they aren't in a head space to understand or take it all in yet. The other jumpers would be those in the waning years of their jumping careers who may never have been Instructors but have a lifetime of experience. Between those two groups the tips, tricks, lessons learned, and yes, even the jump stories passed along is a million dollar education that right now we are wasting.

What prevents any endeavor from getting completely out of control? Its experience and maturity. And we are facing some very serious issues in skydiving today. And the longer you are in the sport, the more perspective you achieve, and the more glaring these problems become.

Let's take a hypothetical, a typical young coach is asked by his student about swooping. It's a natural thing they ask, as they see it, and it may have even been the thing that attracted them to skydiving in the first place. So your typical young coach says here's how they did it, "Step down slow, blah, blah, take a canopy course, blah blah, stay out of the corner, blah blah blah blah." Now take the same student and the same question but now he's sitting in the Otter with old Pete who's been skydiving since the 1970s. Pete would probably say the same thing as the young coach did, but he might add one very important aspect the young coach left out. "Kid," Pete might add, "I've got five thousand jumps and I've always jumped a one to one canopy and I've never hurt myself seriously and I've had a blast over my entire skydiving career. Swooping is very cool, but it's not something you have to do to have fun in this sport." And because old Pete has been teaching so many good real life lessons to this student he's being taken seriously. Pete is the Man as far as this student is concerned. And finally our novices would be getting "options" that are sorely needed in the sport today. Don't think oldtimers would step up for this duty? I do if we made it a position of respect. And I would appeal to their sense of duty. Spend your last few years in the sport putting back, what do you say?

And finally, the coach position is not the place for new people to hone their craft, earn their chops, or make their bones on their way to becoming a primary Instructor. Novices are in way to vulnerable a position to allow that. Coaches should learn their trade along side very experienced AFF Instructors. You grab onto my belt loop and eat, sleep, and crap primary skydiving instruction until I think you are ready to be cut loose. And there are a lot of tips and tricks I can teach you too that right now are also being wasted. Even the current AFF Certification Course format somewhat prevents me from helping candidates who are having trouble. Outside the classroom portion I'm not really supposed to say, "Gee, you're going about this all wrong, try this, this, and that." I can't because they are presenting themselves to me ready to be certified not taught. In a time when bad landings, canopy collisions, and aircraft falling out of skies are getting more prevalent we need, more than ever, to step up our student and novice training. Including the training of trainers. Right now it seems to me we are only slapping band aids on arterial bleeds . . .

So the right people to do coaching, which should really be all about long term survival skills, are the people who actually proved they have long time survival skills by still being around. Right now young coaches mostly teach flying skills. Something the novice will spend the next hundred jumps learning and refining anyway so what’s the big hurry? We are pushing our students too hard and too fast and in the wrong areas. Instructors and coaches shouldn’t be all that concerned by how flash a student flies, it's all about filling their toolboxes with things they can pull out when needed that might just save their lives when the time comes. And that time always comes sooner or later for all of us. And many times more than once and in different ways . . .

NickD

[BDashe 0]

Quote

minute per minute tunnel is still a better value

Well no sh*t, ha ha! But it takes 45 minutes to get the 45 seconds of actual freefall in. My buddy and I just flew 30 minutes straight last week in the tunnel. Tunnel has no weather holds either. I think I've already doubled the amount ive spent on lift tickets in tunnel time in 1/10 the timeframe. Much easier to lose money faster in the tunnel. Also much easier to get skillz faster.

So there I was...

Making friends and playing nice since 1983

[LouDiamond 1]

Dave, Both Fast and Nick hit on all the points I was leading up to in this conversation. I think that if I was to reply I would just be re-iterating what they have said. With that said, I have a much easier time with AFF students and first time flyers in the tunnel than I do with experienced skydivers as I have no bad habits to try and undo before learning can begin. Fast gave some great reasons how to approach this in his post and I agree with him.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[AggieDave 6]

Jesus guys, I have been, from the beginning, talking about flying like you're still wearing a balloon suit with your elbows down by your sides and your hands just slightly higher than your shoulders. At NO point was I talking about Mantis! No Mantis at all!

Sorry you mistook that for me advocating people fly mantis on a Cat A dive.

Next people will tell me that I'm advocating 450s for final for an A-license check dive.

Once again, I'm sorry that I was not articulate enough that you people on the internet understood my intent. Those who have posted in egregious, I do not disagree with the points you made. You made many of the same points of what I believe; however, what was lost was the initial point in this thread.

If that was loss, then it was loss, good day and good luck!

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[davelepka 4]

Quote

Jesus guys, I have been, from the beginning, talking about flying like you're still wearing a balloon suit with your elbows down by your sides and your hands

..blah, blah, blah.

Jesus guys, how about we get the newbies out of the tunnel, and into reality where they can gain experience under canopy, and sharing the sky with others; developing skills that will keep them safe in the years to come.

When was the last fatality or incident due to poor arm position?

Now lets consider the last incident due to poor canopy control or traffic management.

It was stated earlier that the tunnel, minute for minute, is a better value than actual skydives. That may be true if you never want to leave the tunnel. If you do intend to actually skydive, than the tunnel is close to worthless from 'save your ass' standpoint.

[danielcroft 2]

Speaking as a noob who never really had trouble in free fall, I did a lot of tunnel time to advance my flying in winter when I couldn't jump.

Isn't the advantage of doing tunnel time when you're a noob so that you can feel more comfortable in the air and then have more capacity to focus on the rest of the skydive (canopy included)?

[billvon 3,090]

> Like you're holding onto a broom stick going through your ear lobes. That's what
>I'm calling a lazy-w.

I describe it as "thumbs in your ears" but OK.

>Its a position that prevents proper arm movement for turning . . . .

?? What? Having your arms in that position works well for turning. You turn and look _over_ the hand you are looking at, and you are guaranteed to drop that hand/forearm - which is how you start the turn. (Most students have trouble controlling body parts they can't see at first.)

It also works very well for not backlooping during deployment, which is a not-insignificant problem with AFF students.

>it prevents proper docking techniques...

?? Why? Because their arms "aren't in position?" They're not "in position" in the Mantis position either, but that's taught because it works better for RW (where grip taking is critical.)

[DanG 1]

I think Dave is talking about a much more exaggerated position that students sometimes put themselves into, with hands down near the shoulders and elbows in. I sometimes refer to it as having little T-Rex arms. I think some students get there because their instructors tell them to pull their arms in for forward motion, instead of focusing more on leg power. Then, when they have a backsliding problem, they automatically pull their arms back to correct it. I tend to see this position more with small women with short legs than with taller people.

I believe it does cause a problem with grips, especially for people who get into that position as a cure for backsliding. As soon as they have to take a grip, their arms come forward, and they slide back because their legs weren't in the proper position to begin with.

I personally prefer the arm position for students with 90 degree angles at the shoulders and elbows, and with the forearms flat to the relative wind (so they can see over their hands). I think that position gives them the most flexibility for turning and grip taking, as well as being stable and promoting proper leg positioning. Having the arms too far forward is also not ideal, as it makes turning difficult, and can also lead to instability during the pull.

Crazy shit flies, but I think people should start with a well balanced position as students, and then add the crazy shit later.

- Dan G

[billvon 3,090]

>I think Dave is talking about a much more exaggerated position that
>students sometimes put themselves into, with hands down near the shoulders and
>elbows in. I sometimes refer to it as having little T-Rex arms.

I'd agree that having your hands at or below your shoulders would be a bad idea.

>I think some students get there because their instructors tell them to pull
>their arms in for forward motion, instead of focusing more on leg power.

Hmm. I tell them to do both.

>I personally prefer the arm position for students with 90 degree angles at the shoulders and elbows . . .

Yeah, that's a decent position. I tell students the thumbs-in-the-ears thing because they can see their hands (and thus position them accurately) but can't always judge what a 90 degree angle with their elbow is. In _most_ people the thumbs-in-the-ears thing gives them about a 90 degree angle. With long-armed people it's more of a W, with short-armed people it's more of a reach forward.

[LouDiamond 1]

Quote

If you do intend to actually skydive, than the tunnel is close to worthless from 'save your ass' standpoint.

I disagree with that statement entirely. I can take a newbie or an experienced skydiver and put them into situations in the tunnel that cannot be done in the sky safely. As an example, I can intentionally cause instability of a jumper to asses and teach them proper recovery from say a hard dock or from someone running into them. I can have them actually execute emergency procedures for a total, hard pull,etc safely and do it without them going catty-whompass across the sky. I can have a jumper recover from un- intentionally rolling over. I can teach people proper way s of docking and have them do it multiple times in a short period of time until they get it right. There are a lot of skills that can be taught in the wind tunnel that in a matter of one session that would take in excess of a weekends worth of skydives to accomplish.

The tunnel does nothing for building skills related to proper loading/exit order,spotting, exit/leaving the aircraft or canopy control. The later being one of the most important of the group and subsequently, it can only be learned by the student through actually doing it.

However, to say that the tunnel is worthless is a short sided statement.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING