Re: [Ron] Snohomish Jumper Dies in Low Turn Mishap - 5 March 2005

[Zenister 0]

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Whats wrong with all of us?

risk is fun. basic psychology. why are manufacturers allowed to build motors that permit cars to travel faster than the proscribed speed limits? why not have govener plates on all commercial autos?

why, why, why?

its called self determination, no one else can decide what your acceptable risk level is but you..

its your life, (once your an adult)... risk it anyway you chose...and accept that while others might find your choices stupid, they dont live for you...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Ron 10]

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risk is fun. basic psychology. why are manufacturers allowed to build motors that permit cars to travel faster than the proscribed speed limits? why not have govener plates on all commercial autos?

why, why, why?

its called self determination, no one else can decide what your acceptable risk level is but you..

its your life, (once your an adult)... risk it anyway you chose...and accept that while others might find your choices stupid, they dont live for you...

then why are there speed limits and cops to try and make you follow them?

Notice that if while driving you do stupid things they will take away your right to drive?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kelpdiver 2]

One can still benefit from a powerful motor without grossly exceeding the speed limit. Though it's really more about torque, a faster vehicle also accelerates faster and that's what people are buying. In the case of cars, it's more about ego than risk.

[craddock 0]

We need to get over this comparison to cars. I have a major problem with cars speeding down my street. Why? Take a guess. It is not because I am worried they might hurt themselves.

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[Ron 10]

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We need to get over this comparison to cars. I have a major problem with cars speeding down my street. Why? Take a guess. It is not because I am worried they might hurt themselves.

OK use flying...
I have to do 20 hours of Duel before I am allowed to fly a helicopter solo.

I had to get a checkout to fly a tailwheel plane.

I had to get an endorsement to fly a HP plane (one with more than 200HP).

I had to get an edorsement to fly a complex airplane. (A plane with flaps, constant speed prop, retracts)

Wanna try SCUBA diving?

I had to get advanced to go deeper than 60 feet.

Needed Master to go deeper than 15 feet.

Needed Nitrox to use mixed gasses.

I had to take Cavern to go into an overhead environment.

I had to take Cave to ge further than 100 feet into a cave.

I could go on.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mjosparky 4]

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One can still benefit from a powerful motor without grossly exceeding the speed limit. Though it's really more about torque, a faster vehicle also accelerates faster and that's what people are buying. In the case of cars, it's more about ego than risk.

And what do you think going to a smaller, faster canopy at 200 jumps is all about? You think it might be just a little ego driven?

Torque is what gets the car moving off the line and it is horse power that gets it going fast.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[kelpdiver 2]

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Wanna try SCUBA diving?

I had to get advanced to go deeper than 60 feet.

Needed Master to go deeper than [15] feet.

Come on, Ron, you know that's not true, not even with PADI. Depth restrictions only apply to instructional dives.

[kelpdiver 2]

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One can still benefit from a powerful motor without grossly exceeding the speed limit. Though it's really more about torque, a faster vehicle also accelerates faster and that's what people are buying. In the case of cars, it's more about ego than risk.

And what do you think going to a smaller, faster canopy at 200 jumps is all about? You think it might be just a little ego driven?

Torque is what gets the car moving off the line and it is horse power that gets it going fast.

Oh, I'm sure ego is no small part of downsizing.

But the point I intend to make is that a guy that buys a luxury sedan capable of going 150 is only interested in being able to do 60-80 really fast, and being seen on a big V8. Unless he tailgates, overbuying on the engine doesn't really increase risk. Unlike with a hot rod canopy.

My motorcycle was designed with the opposite in mind. The boxer has a top speed around 120, pretty slow for a bike. But the 0-60 is still under 4, and in any straight line affair will kill 99% of the cars. It's geared for its intended use.

[craddock 0]

Wanna take Snomobile racing?

I raced PRO class with no prior snowmobile racing experience.

Wanna talk... Skydiving?

But anyway..
Not being able to fly a complex aircraft, possibily killing god knows how many people, without an endorsement in an industry controlled by a very powerful FAA. relates to skydiving how? I don't need a license or training to fly an ultralight. What do you think would happen if we gave every skydiver an afternoon in an ultralight?

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[billvon 3,116]

>I don't need a license or training to fly an ultralight.

That's exactly right - because ultralights are limited in speed and weight. They are less deadly when you make a minor screwup; of course you can still kill yourself if you try. Reminds me of big parachutes for some reason . . .

>What do you think would happen if we gave every skydiver an afternoon in an ultralight?

We'd have a lot of skydivers bragging about what good pilots they were that night in the bar.

[craddock 0]

What speed are ultralights limited to?

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[billvon 3,116]

>What speed are ultralights limited to?

55kts level cruise.

[craddock 0]

That is much faster than any canopy I have jumped in full flight. Yet still no license required. We as skydivers at least need a license to jump at most DZ's and some sort of training. I think were a lot better off

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[billvon 3,116]

> That is much faster than any canopy I have jumped in full flight.
>Yet still no license required.

Right. They also have motors and landing gear which makes them easier to land than small parachutes. Which isn't to say they're super easy to land - we have an ultralight crash a year out at Perris. Last one totalled the plane but the pilot walked away - sort of the opposite of skydiving in that respect.

[craddock 0]

I'll never understand why you all want to talk about planes , cars, SCUBA, old men who have never jumped modern gear, when you are trying to legislate a Wingloading restriction. You are arguing just for the sake of arguing! You would me much better off talking about skydiving and working on fixing our problem, which would be best served by education, not legislation! You might even save another life!

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[Zenister 0]

i suppose the scuba police make you stick strictly to your dive table too?

the answer is quite obviously we've become an over regulated culture, with to many people who feel it is their job to be their brother's keeper and decide what you can and cannot do with YOUR life..

i've also done most of your list without the required 'ratings' because despite the best efforts of the 'mother hen society' there are still people out there who understand what freedom really means and have no need of a regulating body to decide what they can and cannot do and who and how they will teach to do it...

unfortunately more hens are born and bred everyday...

[whine]"make the world safe for me...protect me from myself, i cant be trusted with my own life..[/whine]

so much for liberty and self determination... unfortunately there are no continents left to emigrate too...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[billvon 3,116]

> You would me much better off talking about skydiving and working
>on fixing our problem, which would be best served by education, not
> legislation! You might even save a life!

How many lives have you saved?

[craddock 0]

Don't know. One too few is for sure though. I have to live with that but he was not one of my students. A friend that had 1600 jumps but I should have kept him alive.

You ask more rhetorical questions than anyone I know. How do you quantify saving a life?

I also am not negating all the good that has been done on these forums by yourself and others. Read the post for what they are, not for what you want them to be.

previous post edited

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[mjosparky 4]

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the answer is quite obviously we've become an over regulated culture, with to many people who feel it is their job to be their brother's keeper and decide what you can and cannot do with YOUR life..

What do you think brought on what you describe a "an over regulated culture". It was not the Jim Slatons and J.C. Colclasures of the world. These guys have learned how to fly a canopy like the rest of us can only dream of. It is the 500 jump wonders who feel they should be allowed to do anything they want regardless of the effect on anything or anyone else. It is the selfish, self centered fringe of any part of any society that brings on laws and regulation. When what you do with YOUR life affects how others can live theirs they have the right to put controls on what you do. If you jump out of YOUR airplane, over YOUR dropzone then it is YOUR life to with as you see fit. But as long as you are jumping from someone else airplane and landing on their dropzone with other paying customers around you need to conduct yourself within the limits of this "over regulated culture". You will find this restriction on behavior in any society there is or ever has been.

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still people out there who understand what freedom really means and have no need of a regulating body to decide what they can and cannot do and who and how they will teach to do it...

This is not freedom it is anarchy. Think what a mess there would be if everyone followed only the rules that they agreed with. Even wild animals have rules of behavior they follow. When member of their group violate those rules they are killed. Thats keeping it simple.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Zenister 0]

obviously if the majority of DZO's had an issue with what people were/are doing at the rate the are doing it they would have already taken steps to regulate THIER business... and a few have, a very few.

If the majority of DZ's decided to over regulate in the fashion you describe it is very likely those who do chose to accept the risks they create for themselves, would take their business and pleasure elsewhere.. then you’d find out exactly how ‘fringe’ those who believe in personal responsibility really are…you dont see many people flocking to the places that have chosen prohibition over personal responsibly do you?

apparently the problem isnt as widespread as the chicken little crowd wishes everyone to believe

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This is not freedom it is anarchy. Think what a mess there would be if everyone followed only the rules that they agreed with. Even wild animals have rules of behavior they follow. When member of their group violate those rules they are killed. Thats keeping it simple

no it is fundamental freedom, self reliance and self determination.. all concepts that have become so diluted and degraded in modern America to the point that many people don’t have never known and cannot imagine what its really like to be free, and make decisions based on personal responsibility and moral code instead of societal, cultural and religious mores..unnecessary rules and restrictions do not make thinking individuals.. they create list reciting drones incapable of independent reason and thought reliant on someone else to tell them what, when, where and how..

and of course hand in hand with the regulated and restrictive society you praise comes the excessive litigation to place the blame on any and everyone except the individual who made the decision that led to their injury/demise

so long as your actions affect YOUR life and no one else’s (directly(but go ahead do pull out the statistically insignificant number of incidents where someone’s personal canopy choice has endangered anyone other than the pilot)[/I] it is up to YOU to decide what you do, and what your personal level of risk is.....

yes there are those who are in fact wildly out of control, corpses looking for a hole in any endeavor they attempt. They are usually easily identified and simply dealt with. If the individual business owner feels they are a threat to their customers and or their business, just like any other business, "we reserve the right to refuse service, thanks for your money, don’t come back”.

It works rather well on a case by case basis and doesn’t infringe on the majority of jumpers, or require a regulating body or 800 pages of documentation to govern and manage from afar. These 'darwin candidates' are also easily the minority (as is obvious even from the limited data we have available), and yet the ‘regulation and restriction’ crowd holds them high as poster children and lumps everyone who has ever made a high speed, low altitude error in the same bucket as those who are wildly out of control to justify their position.

no one forces anyone to jump any canopy, or even to jump at all for that matter.

So lets pretend Bill’s proposed BSR passes.. Five years goes by and the number [I](but not the ratio which we cant even accurately outline with the given data)[/I] of incidents under perfectly good canopies stays the same.. or even increases.. will you be first in line to scream for more regulation and restrictions to protect people from themselves and their own stupid decisions? Do you believe it is your duty to protect other people from themselves?

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[mjosparky 4]

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so long as your actions affect YOUR life and no one else’s (directly(but go ahead do pull out the statistically insignificant number of incidents where someone’s personal canopy choice has endangered anyone other than the pilot) it is up to YOU to decide what you do, and what your personal level of risk is.....

What you fail to understand, for some reason, is you do not live in a vacuum. Everything you do affects other people. It might affect them in a positive way or a negative way, but your actions affect other people.
None of us get to do what we want anytime we want. That is just a fact of life. Welcome to civilized society.
There has never been this "fundamental freedom, self reliance and self determination.. " you speak of. People have always had restrictions on how they behave.
And it is almost always the "those who are in fact wildly out of control, corpses looking for a hole in any endeavor they attempt" group that brings about the restrictions on the rest.
I don't like it either, but no one yet has come up with a better solution.

This is getting way off S&T and maybe you should take your rant to SC.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[chrisgr 0]

At 500 jumps, you may have enough knowledge and experience to help you make a safe choice and fly your Stiletto 150 @ 1.37 lbs/ft.

You must have considered other possibilities when you chose the Stilletto. What criteria did you use?

I ask because some of the jumpers who have been injured and killed were flying canopies that were not appropriate for their experience level. They may not have used the same criteria and judgment when selecting a canopy. They may not have even known what criteria to use to select a canopy.

Part of the idea behind w/l restrictions is to give jumpers time to gain the knowledge and experience that you used to safely select an appropriate canopy.

[Ron 10]

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Come on, Ron, you know that's not true, not even with PADI. Depth restrictions only apply to instructional dives.

NAUI I was told max depths were:
Open 60 feet.
Advanced 120
Master 150

My comments about Nitrox, cavern, cave, ect are still accurate anyway.

Padi even has a shore dive course if I remember correctly.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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Wanna take Snomobile racing?

No. I don't know about SMR...But just because you were allowed does not mean it was smart. And I would guess you could not go to the SMR nationals and race open.

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Wanna talk... Skydiving?

Sure, thats why I am here. I fail to see how regulation about WHEN you can do something is bad...Particlarly when we have said time and time again if you are as good as you think you are, then you would have no problems jumping what you want...All we want is your the folks that think they are great to prove it.

I don't see that as much to ask.

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Not being able to fly a complex aircraft, possibily killing god knows how many people, without an endorsement in an industry controlled by a very powerful FAA. relates to skydiving how?

The FAA saw cocky people doing things before they were ready and dying in the process.

I see a direct comparison.

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I don't need a license or training to fly an ultralight.

Really? I think the USUA would disagree.

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FAA has chosen not to promulgate Federal regulations regarding pilot certification, vehicle certification, and vehicle registration, preferring that the ultralight community assume the initiative for the development of these important safety programs. The ultralight community has taken positive action and developed programs almost two decades ago gaining FAA approval for their implementation.
FAA further states, "...it should be emphasized that the individual ultralight operator's support and compliance with national self-regulation programs is essential to the FAA's continued policy of allowing industry self-regulation in these areas."

FAA does not certify ultralight-specific pilot knowledge and proficiency, but it expects pilots to complete training under an FAA-recognized program. By earning your ultralight pilot wings, this confirms your ultralight-specific knowledge and proficiency. Ultralight pilot flight instruction time averages 10 to15 hours, prior to solo flight. A current list of FAA-recognized USUA flight instructors can be found in the Find an Instructor section.

http://www.usua.org/Instructors/safetyandtraining.htm

You could hop into an ultra light with out training...
While LEGAL that does not equal smart. AND the FAA does not like that idea. Also I HAVE a pilots license and not one Ultra Light place I have EVER been to would let me rent one without a checkout.

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What do you think would happen if we gave every skydiver an afternoon in an ultralight?

Many would die.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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i suppose the scuba police make you stick strictly to your dive table too?

the answer is quite obviously we've become an over regulated culture, with to many people who feel it is their job to be their brother's keeper and decide what you can and cannot do with YOUR life..

i've also done most of your list without the required 'ratings' because despite the best efforts of the 'mother hen society' there are still people out there who understand what freedom really means and have no need of a regulating body to decide what they can and cannot do and who and how they will teach to do it...

unfortunately more hens are born and bred everyday...

[whine]"make the world safe for me...protect me from myself, i cant be trusted with my own life..[/whine]

so much for liberty and self determination... unfortunately there are no continents left to emigrate too...

This from a guy that femured.

Just because you think you should do anything you want does not mean that you should.

Reference Drunk Driving laws, Legal drinking ages, FAA regs, USUA, USPA pull altitudes, NAUI scuba rules....ect.

See MOST rules are made up by people who know more than the beginer. They are in place to allow the novice to not get killed why they learn more.

The Novices always think they are "special" and the rules should not apply to them...Many times they ignore them and a few times they die.

Rules in skydiving were written in blood.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334