Re: [Bigwallmaster] Fatality at Perris

[Frenchy68 0]

Sorry you had such a bad experience. Mine is the exact contrary. I went through AFF, and always felt the instructors were giving me as much time as they felt was needed. I did learn, after jump #4, how to check gear, and was tested a couple times by an instructor (ie the famous misrouted chest strap test). I also found them extremely available to any questions or comments I had. Indeed there can be lots of tandems going on, especially on week ends. But then Stu or Molley (sp?) would take the time toground coach me through the jump. Once again, sorry you went through this. I just had a different experience.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[tdog 0]

PM Sent. I sure hope you are not blowing smoke up our *&& by being anonymous (called a troll on these forums), but at the same time, if you are telling the truth, I understand why you would not want your name connected to the post...

What I will say publicly - The card you are talking about... Is it the Yellow "A" card? If so, don't expect it to be done by the end of AFF... It takes time to get all that done on your post AFF pre A jumps. I had many open holes until 25 jumps or so.

[Anon1234 0]

Yes it is the Yellow Card, no I do not expect it to be done by the end of AFF, but in the graduation packet there is a replica of the Yellow Card with color coding in it and all the "black dots" are what the AFF instructor should be able to sign off and this helps them when going over the card at AFF graduation.

I am not a troll and I have not read your PM yet and I will tell you who I am, just not in an open forum. The skydiving community is very small and I want to be a part of it for along time.

[Anon1234 0]

I don't think I said whether I was a man or woman but I know what you mean, I have watched that.

I have tried approaching the coached on several occassion and they have said "Well, I am on my way to take care of this tandem. Try and catch me later of see if someone else can help you."

I do read the SIM and I will try your suggestion and I will work on being more aggressive and persistant and just hang out in the school.

[Anon1234 0]

I was told after my gradution jump, when the instructor and I were going over the graduation packet, that I was supposed to be shown that at AFF 4. But the instructor who did my graduation jump didn't offer to show me how to do a gear check at that time. On my AFF 4 that jump I met my instructor on my way to the loading area as he had just come down from a tandem. He probably thought that who ever dealt with me on the ground had already taken care of any ground instructions besides the skydive.

I am not blaming the instructors at all, and I understand the amount of money that the tandems bring in and with all the rain needing any jump that they can get.

I just want to jump, and am afraid that there is something else that I haven't been taught that could save my life. I was never tested on anything. I just practiced the skydive, went up and jumped.

I having been thinking about going to the school and meeting with either Stu or Molley (sp?) and talking to them about this and seeing how the response is before I go to either Elsinore or maybe down to Skydive San Diego.

[laurie 0]

I occasionally work at the school...editing videos not an instructor...if I were you, I would go to Katy, Stuie or Moley...they would certainly make sure the problem is resolved. If you need/want one on one attention the best bet would to be to go out during the week.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I am not blaming the instructors at all, and I understand the amount of money that the tandems bring in and with all the rain needing any jump that they can get.

The last couple months at the DZs I frequent, there has been a lot of: a) sitting around yacking, staring forelorning at the sky and b) frentic activity. A week back I saw a lot of couples doing "Valentines Day" jumps. Some had tried three weekends in a row to get it in. So if you've been training lately, maybe you got caught in that.

I did half of my AFF with Perris (L4-7), coupled with some wind tunnel time. I did that on a Fri-Sun trip last May. At the time, I was happy with the daily harness training and that I could talk with them before and immediately after the jump for the debrief. Back home, I might have to wait for the instructor to do a couple tandems. So I might have had better luck on this than you.

Good luck with finishing up.

[lewmonst 0]

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I was told after my gradution jump, when the instructor and I were going over the graduation packet, that I was supposed to be shown that at AFF 4. But the instructor who did my graduation jump didn't offer to show me how to do a gear check at that time. On my AFF 4 that jump I met my instructor on my way to the loading area as he had just come down from a tandem. He probably thought that who ever dealt with me on the ground had already taken care of any ground instructions besides the skydive.

That's unfortunate and a definite miscommunication on the staff's part. It sounds like that happened because the instructor was on a back-to-back. We rarely have to do back-to-back's requiring someone else to train our students. It does happen though on (mostly weekend) days where we are busy and there are weather delays. The office staff and managers at Perris do an excellent job of scheduling as far as not booking too many students in a day and being sure to book enough staff. The only time it becomes an issue is with weather. We cannot control the weather, and some mornings in Perris are foggy until 11am. Those students who were schedule at 8am, 9am and 10am all go first, and the rest of the day is backed up because of it sometimes resulting in instructors doing back-to-backs to finish the day. That is no excuse for you not getting sufficient ground training, it's just an explanation of why you may have had one instructor train you with someone else jumping with you.

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I am not blaming the instructors at all, and I understand the amount of money that the tandems bring in and with all the rain needing any jump that they can get.

We appreciate that perspective as well. Don't count out rainy days though. In fact, rainy days are the best days to get a good portion of the A card filled out. Anything on there dealing with gear, aircraft procedures, cloud clearances, etc, can all be taken care of then. And we would be more than happy to do so.

The A license proficiency card is not intended to be completed when you complete AFF levels 1-8. Many of the skills covered on the card are done with RW (coach) jumps. In the graduation packet, there is an outline of 10 RW jumps you do after completing AFF. The A card should be able to be completed when you reach 25 jumps. (You should be no where near completing it at 10 total jumps anyway.)

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I just want to jump, and am afraid that there is something else that I haven't been taught that could save my life. I was never tested on anything. I just practiced the skydive, went up and jumped.

The retraining for safety during AFF is given in the harness room and applies to every skydive. You only need to go through the harness room once a day, although you can pass through several AFF levels in one day. And in the harness room, those 30 or so questions you are put through along with emergency procedures are how you are tested. The jump specific training goes over the skills learned for each jump and the diveflow, which you have to perform back in a dirt dive, at the mock up and talk through the skydive on the way to altitude.

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I having been thinking about going to the school and meeting with either Stu or Molley (sp?) and talking to them about this and seeing how the response is before I go to either Elsinore or maybe down to Skydive San Diego.

Please do. Talking to the cheif instructors is the best thing you could right now. Stuey and Moley will make sure you are taken care of and address the issue with the instructors.

And if you see me around, I'd be happy to answer any of your questions and go over whatever I can on your A card.

peace
lew

http://www.exitshot.com

[Bigwallmaster 0]

Anon1234,

I relate to some of things that you have said here, as I was also an AFF student at Perris a few years back. I remember at times feeling the same way as you, but to be frank. . . .you've got to take action and speak up! Wendy is correct; Perris is an extremely busy DZ. When I was an AFF'er I did have times when my instructors were too busy to answer every one of my questions, so I just waited until they could. If I wasn't comfortable with something before the jump, then I didn't jump.

Equally, (and I'm not suggesting that you didn't do this) when I decided to go through AFF I read the "Skydiver's Handbook" over and over to ensure that I would have a working knowledge of the types of safety questions I should ask of my instructors. I understand what you are saying the about the "gear check" thing, but at the same time you must have seen your instructors do gear checks on you several times throughout AFF. At those times you most certainly had the opportunity to ask them to walk you through it as they were doing it.

To Perris' credit, I strongly feel they taught me the most essential core safety requirements: 1) Secure your harness properly 2) Know your EP's and practice them before and during the ride to altitude 3) Maintain altitude awareness at all times and pull at a safe altitude 4) If the canopy is no good, cutaway by 2500 5) Under canopy be very aware of other canopies and obstacles. But at some point beyond those essentials you must take responsibility for yourself. If an instructor is not available, try talking with other experienced jumpers to find the answers you're looking for. The skydiving school is not a nursery and ultimately it is you who rides the plane up and jump out. If at anytime while going through AFF at Perris you were uncomfortable or not feeling safe about the jump, then you should have immediately told your instructor(s) that you did not want to do the jump until your questions were answered. If you're too timid to speak up to ask the questions that are going to cover your ass, then I would highly recommend asking yourself if this sport is for you.

Also I really don't understand what you are so afraid of in relation to Saturday's accident when you end your post by saying that you are confident in your ability to deal with a malfunction.

Sorry for the flame, but I just get really frustrated when people knock their instructors' ground training. . . .after the skydive! Makes no sense.

Cheers,

J.P.

[VectorBoy 0]

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Perris is a big and busy DZ. I have a feeling that if you're not a good-looking woman , the amount of attention might be commensurate

Well hold on there now, thats not entirely true we even give attention to some of the not so-good- looking women.

All joking ASSide I know some instructors go to lengths in not overloading the student with every bit of information and instead focus on the essentials for the the next dive. Students can't be briefed on gear checking every possible variation in gear that may be on a load with them.

Example: many jumpers don't know how to relate and get worried when they see a CReW dog get on a load with hemoraging toggles sticking out of the containers, riser flaps ( pre) open and exit with the PC already in their hand.

[Anon1234 0]

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The A license proficiency card is not intended to be completed when you complete AFF levels 1-8. Many of the skills covered on the card are done with RW (coach) jumps. In the graduation packet, there is an outline of 10 RW jumps you do after completing AFF. The A card should be able to be completed when you reach 25 jumps. (You should be no where near completing it at 10 total jumps anyway.)

I know that the A license proficiency card is not intended to be filled out by completion of AFF, but according to the instructor who did my graduation jump said that he wanted my packet because he is supposed to sign off on the "black" dots on the replica of the card that is in the packet. It is all color coded as to who, is supposed to sign off certain areas. If he mis-spoke and I will learn alot of these during my next jumps then I feel a little better. But some of these things are definate AFF items.

I didn't want to turn this into my thread. I also don't want people to think that Perris is a bad place. I have had a wonderful time. I know that I have been going thru AFF at a bad time when people have gone weeks and weeks with no income and are hungry. I can totally understand that and respect that.

Someone else posted that I shouldn't be asking ground school questions after the jump. I thought maybe gear checks were taught at a higher level of AFF. I am the student, who is expecting my instructors to teach me at the appropriate times, this is a very overwhelming experience and I thought maybe gear checks were a part of the graduation jump day. I was so overwhelmed and nervous about that day, that I just let them do as they have been doing all along and gave me a gear check, I did the usual, locate my three handle and the chest strap, and leg straps. I was told we were going to sit down after graduation, I thought that is when we go over all that is involved in a gear check.

I guess if I am going to ensure survival I better learn to get vocal and let people know. Now that I know, what I should have learned so far I am going to do that.

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In fact, rainy days are the best days to get a good portion of the A card filled out. Anything on there dealing with gear, aircraft procedures, cloud clearances, etc, can all be taken care of then. And we would be more than happy to do so.

The instructors are there on rainy days? I figured you would be there on cloudy days, but not rainy days. I am trying to get a week off work so that I can come to the dz everyday and get this taken care of and as many jumps in so that I can get my A-License. =

What days and times are you at Perris?

[MarkM 0]

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Just to voice an opinion about gear checks - I jump at Perris, and have had experienced jumpers stop me and check gear; I've also approached experienced jumpers and asked for a gear check. I've asked instructors for gear checks there, and they've never done anything but said "sure."

http://www.dzcomic.com/?strip_id=0

I really don't see why checking your own gear is so hard. Check the kill line before donning the rig, check the straps before you walk to the plane, check the BOC before getting near the prop blast of the plane, after undoing your seat belt check your reserve and cutaway handles, check the chest and leg straps on the boring ride up, check the BOC right before the door opens, after you get up from sitting reach back to check main closing flap, then pat the BOC one last time as you move towards the open door.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

You said that you only go out on weekends. This is when the instructors are most busy. That is not unique to Perris. If that is when you have days off then that is when you are going to be there. Are you there first thing in the morning? Are you there at the end of the day? Between 10 or 11 and about 3 most staffers are hair straight back on big DZs If you are there at sunset with a beer for the instructor, I'll give you dollars to doughnuts they'll make time for you. If they still can't help you then it's time to try a different DZ.

[diablopilot 2]

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Then you would have many opportunities to meet new friends as you tell them all this before they give you a gear check.

If he so chose to do so. I agree with Bill. I don't ask for gear checks, but I am happy to perform them for others. Reasons?

I check my shit before I put it on. I do my own rigging mostly as well. I know how to check my shit in the A/C and I take care to safeguard my gear in the A/C. I jump pull out something mostjumpers don't seem to know about. The last time I had a gear check from someone (unannounced BTW) they tried to pull my bridle out to check the kill line window (I don't have one).

Not saying gear checks are wrong. Just don't assume everyone who doesn't get one is unsafe.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[diablopilot 2]

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The instructors are there on rainy days?

HEll yes. Crap....I'f I had a nickel for every rainy/weather day I've spent on a DZ......well I'd have quite a few nickles.....

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[skylord 1]

Sometimes I felt a bit rushed, too, but it wasn't because of my AFF instructors it was because I had a sense of being overwhelmed. Every instructor I've had has taken the time we both felt we needed to make sure I was ready for the jump. There was some stuff that was not covered, so I'd get on here, or make a point of finding someone to explain it to me.

It really is not a matter of being "aggressive" per se, it is just a matter of being "assertive". No one can make you jump, and on my first solo, I was manifested on a 15 minute call. I walked away, and then came right back to tell manifest to place me on the following load. Why? I wasn't ready, and I had too many questions as to how I was supposed to do the logistical stuff. I would have been rushed.

I've never jumped at Perris, but I've been up there in the tunnel and hung around. I'll defer to your greater experience, but I have NEVER seen people running around so busy that if you stopped them they couldn't take some time. Elsinore gets busy, too, but again never a problem if you needed something explained.

I will say that sometimes experienced jumpers may take for granted how steep the early learning curve is, but that is when it is time for us students to speak up. When I've done that, all the time I needed was provided by my instructor.

You are obviously very conscientious about skydiving, and that is good. Assert yourself a bit more, and remember the skydive is yours. Alone.

Bob

Bob Marks

"-when you leave the airplane its all wrong til it goes right, its a whole different mindset, this is why you have system redundancy." Mattaman

[linny 1]

Dude, sorry to hear about your negative experience at the PV school.

Damn straight those instructors are busy on weekends! But to their defense, they are some of the nicest, most giving and caring people I've ever met!

I was lost as shit during AFF. Sooo overwhelmed. I even failed level 8 once! Something that really helped me was the harness room training. I drilled my instructors to death. Each level, I think we spent 25 minutes in that room. I asked all sorts of shit. Over and over. And finally it all came together thanks to two jump masters in particular who spent A LOT of extra time with my friend and I after dark, explaining EVERYTHING to us. I'm talking gear inspections, landing patterns, EP's, EVERYTHING. We sat them down (on separate occassions, and over beer of course) and just started asking away.
You'd be surprised how much knowledge you can gain by hangin out at the Bombshelter after dark. That's where you'll be meeting the friends you'll be jumping with once you're licensed. It's a great social tool. Love you guys!

Anon, keep your head up, and don't give up on us yet.

[Ron 10]

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I want to jump with you some day

If you are ever in FL....Let me know I'd love to.

And if I ever find myself in Co....I'l PM ya.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[chrisgr 0]

Sorry for your loss.

[Dazzle 0]

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If an instructor is not available, try talking with other experienced jumpers to find the answers you're looking for.

I'd disagree with that statement. Students shouldn't ask experienced jumpers, stick with asking instructors (I'm not an instructor btw)

Although the experienced jumper might well know the answer as well as an instructor they are not trained to teach to student, they don't necessarily know how the school teaches and could contradict information that the student receives from an instructor. They could also be plain wrong!

Experienced jumpers who get asked questions should point the student to an instructor.

There is plenty of time after the student has graduated, at least AFF if not A license, to get more information from experienced jumpers.

Just my thoughts

[MarkM 0]

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I am a fairly recent graduate of the Perris Valley Skydiving School AFF program. After AFF I have felt so alone and on my own. There are so many things that I was supposed to be taught at each level on the ground that I was not. The only things we ever went over was the skydive. I did have FJC, but that doesn't go over each skydive and what to learn on the ground at each level.

For various reasons I ended up being a student at 5 different dropzones and they all had gaps in what they taught. That didn't make any one of them unsafe, it's just that there's a lot to teach and different instructors prioritize different things outside of the core basics.

Past that, you may or may not be on your own after graduation off student status depending on the DZ. I've been to DZs where I was showed errors in my packing by instructors even though I haven't been a student for a year and I've been to DZs where they don't even ask if I'm current after having not seen me in 6 months.

But either way, I think learning to look out for yourself and being able to seek sources of learning(not just wait for them to come to you) it the #1 skill to learn post AFF.

[billvon 3,079]

>Students shouldn't ask experienced jumpers, stick with asking instructors
>(I'm not an instructor btw)

AFF students should, but once they are off student status, asking other jumpers is a very important part of learning. You're never going to learn about an ROL throwout in AFF (why would you?) and if you want to learn about them, asking someone who does jump one could be a good idea.

I make that pretty clear when I teach the AFF class. For their first jump they get spoon-fed everything they need to know, but after that, the responsibility to learn becomes theirs. Formal training tapers off, and once they have finished AFF, they basically take charge of their own training program (with some help from the ISP in some places.) That means asking questions and bugging people.

[diablopilot 2]

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Sorry for your loss.

Explain.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[lewmonst 0]

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The instructors are there on rainy days? I figured you would be there on cloudy days, but not rainy days. I am trying to get a week off work so that I can come to the dz everyday and get this taken care of and as many jumps in so that I can get my A-License. =

What days and times are you at Perris?

I am scheduled to work Wednesdays, Thursdays, Saturdays and Sundays. But I am often there every day. Sometimes I might be there but not as an instructor if my team is training. I'll be there team training the 14th-19th this month and 28th-april1st, and working normally other weeks. Either way, if I am there and have time I will help you. If I am too busy during the day, which I usually am with team training, I will help you as soon as the sun goes down. But talking to Moley and Stuey will also help, they can cover a lot on the card with you and help you progress. Let them know how you feel and what your concerns are. Also, if you see Ed, he's very helpful and loves to spend time with students. He would be more than happy to take all the time needed with you.
Ed's in the photo... Really any of the instructors will, some just take asking very directly.

peace
lew

http://www.exitshot.com

[Squeak 17]

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You said that you only go out on weekends. This is when the instructors are most busy. That is not unique to Perris. If that is when you have days off then that is when you are going to be there. Are you there first thing in the morning? Are you there at the end of the day? Between 10 or 11 and about 3 most staffers are hair straight back on big DZs If you are there at sunset with a beer for the instructor, I'll give you dollars to doughnuts they'll make time for you. If they still can't help you then it's time to try a different DZ.

If that's a requirement for proper instruction I'd go to a different DZ before this point.
Improper tuition is not exused by saying the instructors are busy. start a job and finish it before moving on to the next. This production line BS is going to get someone seriously hurt or dead.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?