TheCaptain 2 #26 January 20, 2009 It sounds like you really are not going to listen to the advise given here unless it agrees with the decision you have already made. IMHO, if you can not stand your current canopy up nearly 100% of the time you do not need to down size, but if you are going to anyways you be prepared to live with some pain. Attached is my lesson in downsizing quicklyKirk He's dead Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #27 January 20, 2009 What I was taking about is the time it takes for the canopy to recover from the dive. A canopy with a short recovery arc would be better for him at this stage. It will recover faster if he fucks up. so no it was not backwards...Never give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 2 #28 January 20, 2009 Eh, I think you've been told that a few times already in this thread no? ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #29 January 20, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Sort recovery arc, not unlike your Sabre I. Same reason I didn't suggest a Pilot, depsite being a die hard Aerodyne jumper. so the sabre2 has a longer arc, as most modern swoop-canopies do, which will suit me better in the long run if i want to keep going the HP-way!? Yes. Sabre 2 150, sabre 2 135, crossfire 2 129 might (MIGHT, since I don't know you so just a general suggestion) be a sensible progression for you if you are interested in swooping. thanks! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #30 January 20, 2009 Quote that was my understanding, so, which canopy is the safer choice? sabre2 over safire2 if i understood correctly!? The SabreII 150 is a safer choice, and a better learning opertunity than the Safire II 150. Is is also safer choice and a better learning opertunity than any of the smaller sizes of any make. If you combine any of the canopies above with a poorly planned swooping progression that moves too fast (not unlike downsizing too fast) none of them are going to be "safe"."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #31 January 20, 2009 Quotei feel very ambivalent to my instructors/mentors recommendations and what i feel to be the safer/wiser choice.. Whose ass is going to be under the canopy? Who gets to enjoy the pain meds if shit happens to you? Your instructors/mentors? Yeah, I didn't think so. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #32 January 20, 2009 They are in the same catigory for canopies. They have the same characteristics. In other word they are very similarNever give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #33 January 20, 2009 QuoteI'm trying to be civil but... SERIOUSLY? You came on here to ask a question you already knew the answer to. At least the answer you'd get. Why ask? I know you've read other downsizing threads since you titled this one "ANOTHER downsizing thread." Did you think you'd get different advice than the last guy with 200 jumps that wanted to skip a couple steps in his downsizing progression and start jumping a ridiculously small elliptical canopy? You know the answer, so go do what you want to do. Dave[/reply man, thats NOT the case. otherwise i'd just do what my people have told me and NOT make a fool of myself around here.. really!“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dragon2 2 #34 January 20, 2009 QuoteWhat I was taking about is the time it takes for the canopy to recover from the dive. A canopy with a short recovery arc would be better for him at this stage. It will recover faster if he fucks up. so no it was not backwards... If he wants to swoop he'll swoop. Have personally seen way too many very low "swoops" on safires, pilots, sabres and stilettos too to think your way. For an unintentional low turn, than a safire or the like would be a bit better I agree, so for a first canopy the sabre2 is fairly HP. But at 200+ jumps, I don't see a problem with it, it's a good canopy and it's no crossfire, katana etc. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andrewwhyte 1 #35 January 20, 2009 Quoteserious answer: i wanna become a bit of a swooper, what i promise myself is that i get more out of body-input.. (if that's worded right) also, the sabre has a very short recovery-arc if i do go on frontrisers. dont know if i really like that in my future ventures of HP-landings.. and thats where i want to go! I do not think you are ready to downsize until you have mastered what you have. If you want to swoop why don't you learn to swoop your Sabre? I disagree that the recovery arc is too short to learn to swoop. If you change to a Sabre 2 or a Safire 2 without downsizing that is fine, but if you downsize you are setting yourself back in your progression as now you will have to will if you have any brains devote a bunch of jumps to flying and landing your new canopy. Trying to learn to swoop on a canopy you are not familiar with is not the best idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites virgin-burner 1 #36 January 20, 2009 QuoteIt sounds like you really are not going to listen to the advise given here unless it agrees with the decision you have already made. IMHO, if you can not stand your current canopy up nearly 100% of the time you do not need to down size, but if you are going to anyways you be prepared to live with some pain. Attached is my lesson in downsizing quickly i take it, you misread then. i HAVENT made my choice yet, hence, this thread..“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DougH 270 #37 January 20, 2009 QuoteQuotei feel very ambivalent to my instructors/mentors recommendations and what i feel to be the safer/wiser choice.. Whose ass is going to be under the canopy? Who gets to enjoy the pain meds if shit happens to you? Your instructors/mentors? Yeah, I didn't think so. You can't teach experince, and all the experince in the world isn't enough sometimes. The body count of dead swoopers who were at the top of their game proof of this! You aren't any better than those dead jumpers were when they had 200 jumps, and you instructors aren't any better than the people who took them under their wings at the time."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Andy_Copland 0 #38 January 20, 2009 If your instructor has seen you fall over 5 out of 10 landings and says go for a safire2 119 he needs a good swift kick in the head.1338 People aint made of nothin' but water and shit. Until morale improves, the beatings will continue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TheCaptain 2 #39 January 20, 2009 When the majority of people are saying do not down size and you are arguing to downsize, then you are just trying to vindicate the decision you have already made in your head.Kirk He's dead Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites virgin-burner 1 #40 January 20, 2009 ok, ok, ok.. this is already getting way out of hand, and already going way too fast.. i stay on a more modern 150, say a sabre2 or the safire2, which of the two would help me more in my planned progression!?“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ozzy13 0 #41 January 20, 2009 QuoteQuoteWhat I was taking about is the time it takes for the canopy to recover from the dive. A canopy with a short recovery arc would be better for him at this stage. It will recover faster if he fucks up. so no it was not backwards... If he wants to swoop he'll swoop. Have personally seen way too many very low "swoops" on safires, pilots, sabres and stilettos too to think your way. For an unintentional low turn, than a safire or the like would be a bit better I agree, so for a first canopy the sabre2 is fairly HP. But at 200+ jumps, I don't see a problem with it, it's a good canopy and it's no crossfire, katana etc. I seen a Safire 2 149 go 300 ft on a swoop. And you are right they have to start their turn a lot lower then a CF. Saber2 or Safire 2 is pretty much the same canopy. I have owned both. I liked the Safire 2 better for the openings. Other wise I thought they were the same. I don't think he is ready to swoop. I think he is getting ahead of him self. I would love to see one of his instructors get on here and tell us they think he is ready to go even smaller on HP canopiesNever give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,085 #42 January 20, 2009 >A canopy with a short recovery arc would be better for him at this stage. It will >recover faster if he fucks up. so no it was not backwards... It is backwards. In order to learn to swoop (which he wants to do) you have to initiate at an altitude that will allow the canopy to plane out naturally at approximately ground level. A canopy with a short arc (i.e. a Stiletto) requires you to initiate very low; a canopy with a longer arc (like a Safire2) allows you to initiate higher. Initiating a turn to landing higher is safer than initiating one lower. And both will give him the same flare power to abort a screwed up approach. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DougH 270 #43 January 20, 2009 I thought I shared my opinion on that above. You can learn to swoop with a progression that minimizes some of the risks with either. That progression will be long and take a number of jumps. It doesn't start with buying a new canopy and going back to whipping 90's though."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites virgin-burner 1 #44 January 20, 2009 thanks bill for chimming in, so, safire2, sabre2, wont make that much of a difference then!? and to calm everybody down, i'll stay on the 150.. ok!? “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stitch 0 #45 January 20, 2009 Pot-stirrer. "No cookies for you"- GFD "I don't think I like the sound of that" ~ MB65 Don't be a "Racer Hater" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DougH 270 #46 January 20, 2009 Quote thanks bill for chimming in, so, safire2, sabre2, wont make that much of a difference then!? I never had you pegged for being "slow". "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,085 #47 January 20, 2009 >so, safire2, sabre2, wont make that much of a difference then!? I can't speak to the Sabre2 150/Safire2 149 (I've never compared them) but in the smaller sizes I think the Safire2 is a slightly better canopy to learn swooping on. Longer arc and more stable during initiation. But it's not a big difference. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ozzy13 0 #48 January 20, 2009 Quote>A canopy with a short recovery arc would be better for him at this stage. It will >recover faster if he fucks up. so no it was not backwards... It is backwards. In order to learn to swoop (which he wants to do) you have to initiate at an altitude that will allow the canopy to plane out naturally at approximately ground level. A canopy with a short arc (i.e. a Stiletto) requires you to initiate very low; a canopy with a longer arc (like a Safire2) allows you to initiate higher. Initiating a turn to landing higher is safer than initiating one lower. And both will give him the same flare power to abort a screwed up approach. Well I am just coming off a Safire2 149 and going to a CF2 129 And if you think it has a long recovery arc you are mistaken. It does not. You have way more experience then me so I don't want to argue with you. I think with the safire if I mis judged the dive i t would come out faster. Where with the crossfire if I mis judged it will take longer to come out hens more chance of getting hurt. That's all I was trying to sayNever give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,085 #49 January 20, 2009 >I think with the safire if I mis judged the dive i t would come out faster. >Where with the crossfire if I mis judged it will take longer to come out . . . I'd say they both take about the same amount of time to come out of the swoop once you start recovering (i.e. adding brakes.) With the longer recovery arc you will have more time to do that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites virgin-burner 1 #50 January 20, 2009 Quote Pot-stirrer. i'm telling you a secret: for once, i did NOT try to stir the pot. altough, i'm very good at THAT!! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next Page 2 of 7 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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dragon2 2 #34 January 20, 2009 QuoteWhat I was taking about is the time it takes for the canopy to recover from the dive. A canopy with a short recovery arc would be better for him at this stage. It will recover faster if he fucks up. so no it was not backwards... If he wants to swoop he'll swoop. Have personally seen way too many very low "swoops" on safires, pilots, sabres and stilettos too to think your way. For an unintentional low turn, than a safire or the like would be a bit better I agree, so for a first canopy the sabre2 is fairly HP. But at 200+ jumps, I don't see a problem with it, it's a good canopy and it's no crossfire, katana etc. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #35 January 20, 2009 Quoteserious answer: i wanna become a bit of a swooper, what i promise myself is that i get more out of body-input.. (if that's worded right) also, the sabre has a very short recovery-arc if i do go on frontrisers. dont know if i really like that in my future ventures of HP-landings.. and thats where i want to go! I do not think you are ready to downsize until you have mastered what you have. If you want to swoop why don't you learn to swoop your Sabre? I disagree that the recovery arc is too short to learn to swoop. If you change to a Sabre 2 or a Safire 2 without downsizing that is fine, but if you downsize you are setting yourself back in your progression as now you will have to will if you have any brains devote a bunch of jumps to flying and landing your new canopy. Trying to learn to swoop on a canopy you are not familiar with is not the best idea. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #36 January 20, 2009 QuoteIt sounds like you really are not going to listen to the advise given here unless it agrees with the decision you have already made. IMHO, if you can not stand your current canopy up nearly 100% of the time you do not need to down size, but if you are going to anyways you be prepared to live with some pain. Attached is my lesson in downsizing quickly i take it, you misread then. i HAVENT made my choice yet, hence, this thread..“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #37 January 20, 2009 QuoteQuotei feel very ambivalent to my instructors/mentors recommendations and what i feel to be the safer/wiser choice.. Whose ass is going to be under the canopy? Who gets to enjoy the pain meds if shit happens to you? Your instructors/mentors? Yeah, I didn't think so. You can't teach experince, and all the experince in the world isn't enough sometimes. The body count of dead swoopers who were at the top of their game proof of this! You aren't any better than those dead jumpers were when they had 200 jumps, and you instructors aren't any better than the people who took them under their wings at the time."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy_Copland 0 #38 January 20, 2009 If your instructor has seen you fall over 5 out of 10 landings and says go for a safire2 119 he needs a good swift kick in the head.1338 People aint made of nothin' but water and shit. Until morale improves, the beatings will continue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheCaptain 2 #39 January 20, 2009 When the majority of people are saying do not down size and you are arguing to downsize, then you are just trying to vindicate the decision you have already made in your head.Kirk He's dead Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #40 January 20, 2009 ok, ok, ok.. this is already getting way out of hand, and already going way too fast.. i stay on a more modern 150, say a sabre2 or the safire2, which of the two would help me more in my planned progression!?“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #41 January 20, 2009 QuoteQuoteWhat I was taking about is the time it takes for the canopy to recover from the dive. A canopy with a short recovery arc would be better for him at this stage. It will recover faster if he fucks up. so no it was not backwards... If he wants to swoop he'll swoop. Have personally seen way too many very low "swoops" on safires, pilots, sabres and stilettos too to think your way. For an unintentional low turn, than a safire or the like would be a bit better I agree, so for a first canopy the sabre2 is fairly HP. But at 200+ jumps, I don't see a problem with it, it's a good canopy and it's no crossfire, katana etc. I seen a Safire 2 149 go 300 ft on a swoop. And you are right they have to start their turn a lot lower then a CF. Saber2 or Safire 2 is pretty much the same canopy. I have owned both. I liked the Safire 2 better for the openings. Other wise I thought they were the same. I don't think he is ready to swoop. I think he is getting ahead of him self. I would love to see one of his instructors get on here and tell us they think he is ready to go even smaller on HP canopiesNever give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,085 #42 January 20, 2009 >A canopy with a short recovery arc would be better for him at this stage. It will >recover faster if he fucks up. so no it was not backwards... It is backwards. In order to learn to swoop (which he wants to do) you have to initiate at an altitude that will allow the canopy to plane out naturally at approximately ground level. A canopy with a short arc (i.e. a Stiletto) requires you to initiate very low; a canopy with a longer arc (like a Safire2) allows you to initiate higher. Initiating a turn to landing higher is safer than initiating one lower. And both will give him the same flare power to abort a screwed up approach. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #43 January 20, 2009 I thought I shared my opinion on that above. You can learn to swoop with a progression that minimizes some of the risks with either. That progression will be long and take a number of jumps. It doesn't start with buying a new canopy and going back to whipping 90's though."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #44 January 20, 2009 thanks bill for chimming in, so, safire2, sabre2, wont make that much of a difference then!? and to calm everybody down, i'll stay on the 150.. ok!? “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stitch 0 #45 January 20, 2009 Pot-stirrer. "No cookies for you"- GFD "I don't think I like the sound of that" ~ MB65 Don't be a "Racer Hater" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #46 January 20, 2009 Quote thanks bill for chimming in, so, safire2, sabre2, wont make that much of a difference then!? I never had you pegged for being "slow". "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,085 #47 January 20, 2009 >so, safire2, sabre2, wont make that much of a difference then!? I can't speak to the Sabre2 150/Safire2 149 (I've never compared them) but in the smaller sizes I think the Safire2 is a slightly better canopy to learn swooping on. Longer arc and more stable during initiation. But it's not a big difference. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ozzy13 0 #48 January 20, 2009 Quote>A canopy with a short recovery arc would be better for him at this stage. It will >recover faster if he fucks up. so no it was not backwards... It is backwards. In order to learn to swoop (which he wants to do) you have to initiate at an altitude that will allow the canopy to plane out naturally at approximately ground level. A canopy with a short arc (i.e. a Stiletto) requires you to initiate very low; a canopy with a longer arc (like a Safire2) allows you to initiate higher. Initiating a turn to landing higher is safer than initiating one lower. And both will give him the same flare power to abort a screwed up approach. Well I am just coming off a Safire2 149 and going to a CF2 129 And if you think it has a long recovery arc you are mistaken. It does not. You have way more experience then me so I don't want to argue with you. I think with the safire if I mis judged the dive i t would come out faster. Where with the crossfire if I mis judged it will take longer to come out hens more chance of getting hurt. That's all I was trying to sayNever give the gates up and always trust your rears! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,085 #49 January 20, 2009 >I think with the safire if I mis judged the dive i t would come out faster. >Where with the crossfire if I mis judged it will take longer to come out . . . I'd say they both take about the same amount of time to come out of the swoop once you start recovering (i.e. adding brakes.) With the longer recovery arc you will have more time to do that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #50 January 20, 2009 Quote Pot-stirrer. i'm telling you a secret: for once, i did NOT try to stir the pot. altough, i'm very good at THAT!! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
