Scrumpot 1 #26 April 4, 2005 QuoteThere will be much less friction at the adapter. Why do you say/think that? The forces to pull the strap from the tensioner are exactly the same. In essence, we are all only looking at the configuration as if from the BACK (or "inside") of the strap routing. Otherwise, at least it looks to me as if it is INDENTICAL (to a "CORRECT" routing) ...except for only a "mirror image" as such, of sorts. Again, my opinion ...so long as the strap routing is FIRST over the buckle-frame then under and around the tensioner and back -it makes absolutely no difference. ...And Derek, I came to that hypothesis at my desk AT WORK. ...I have't gone home & tried it as a practical test or anything yet. It's just the way I saw it, in the nice comfy cushy comfort of my seat here in front of my computer too. I'm not saying that if I actually saw this on a load on jumprun though on a buddy that I STILL might not "double-take" it/like it better if it were "fixed" coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 30 #27 April 5, 2005 QuoteSo, what do I win? Derek I was 1st! What do I win? lolRemster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #28 April 5, 2005 QuoteI was 1st! What do I win? lol You were wishy-washy though. Let's call it a draw Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #29 April 5, 2005 I never even saw your guys post(s) until I posted mine. It's usually a "BAD" habit of mine, when I see only later I'm asking the same questions, or pissing somebody off who has already "dealt" with what I thought I was just bringing up. That said, I still haven't seen Gary's FINAL word on this yet either. Although I too feel confident, I'm not popping any self-congratulatory corks until then. (I was gonna say until the "large person" sings, but hey... I decided not to say that! )coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #30 April 5, 2005 QuoteLooks like the elastic keeper is in the wrong place. I don't see this as allowing it (the strap) to come undone, but the free end may well thrash around in freefall and become very distracting. Looks like the keeper on a Javelin. I don't think it's in the wrong place, just harder to pull the excess back with the loose end flipped 180 degrees.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #31 April 5, 2005 QuoteSafe to jump this particular threading of the chest strap or not? (I know my answer, I'm just soliciting opinions, and I'll explain later.) I'm sure a number of you will give me more that just a yes/no answer, but the yes/no part is an important part of the question. If the tension in the chest strap connected to the MLW is parallel to the metallic keeper, then all is ok. If the tension is closer to perpendicular to the metallic keeper then the strap can loosen up (say on exit or a hybrid load). If the tension is parallel at first, to place the keeper tight, then the fastener seems to hold. Any slack will allow the strap to loosen. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #32 April 5, 2005 QuoteIf the tension in the chest strap connected to the MLW is parallel to the metallic keeper, then all is ok. If the tension is closer to perpendicular to the metallic keeper then the strap can loosen up (say on exit or a hybrid load). If the tension is parallel at first, to place the keeper tight, then the fastener seems to hold. Any slack will allow the strap to loosen. This is no diferent than if it was 'correctly' routed. The routing in the pics wil work exactly the same as 'correctly' routing it will with the exception that it might be tougher to remove. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #33 April 5, 2005 EXCEPT ...... That the fold back on the end of the chest strap is now NOT oriented right to the friction adapter. Instead of being ready to catch on the frame the fold back is now on the inside of the adapter and won't catch the frame. It may catch the bar but it still isn't doing what it was intended to do. If someone wanted to jump this way all the time I'd reverse the fold back. The chest strap hardware is not asymetric and can be reversed and still work as advertised. So will it hold? Yes, but if it doesn't for any of the same reasons one routed normally might not then the fold back will not be as effective in keeping the webbing threaded. So I say NOT as safe as normal. So I guess that means NOT safe.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #34 April 5, 2005 I don't think the fold back is necessary. There are rigs without a foldback on the chest strap and I have a bunch of jumps on one w/o it. As it is (backwards), the foldback could still catch on the hardware. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #35 April 5, 2005 But not in the way it's intended. Comparatively, this orientation is not as safe as the proper orientation. Would I jump with it? Sure. I'd I've jumped lots with out a fold back also. And I said it would probably catch the bar. But if the rig manufacturer wants it there, then it out to be in the proper orientation. I'm being picky, and I'd jump all day like this, but it isn't absolutely the same as the right way. Gary, do I win?!!!!I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeffrey 1 #36 April 5, 2005 Gary, Now look what you started. I thought some of you might like a look at the original specs on the MS 70101. Jeff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #37 April 5, 2005 Quote Gary, Now look what you started. Gary's good for shit disturbing and making people think out of the box. he's definately good like that. Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peek 21 #38 April 5, 2005 And now I'll tell you why I asked. I think most posters realize now that this connector is reversable. Jeff, thanks very much for the engineering drawings that indicate this. The elastic keeper just happened to wind up where it was, and was not part of the question. Having no keeper installed was to make the running end of the strap easier to see in the picture and was not part of the question either. But of course you guys seem to catch everything! Granted, threading your chest strap like the pictures show is a bit different, but quite safe to jump with. My biggest concern would be getting out of your gear quickly if needed. It _might_ make an opening uncomfortable, but very little of the opening force should be on a chest strap. A folded over section of the running end might be less effective with it threaded that way. But would you trust your strap to a fold or would you insure proper threading (forward or reverse) to keep you safe? Also, remember that there are rigs with no folds. When I went to the certification course to obtain my crossover IAD rating, my buddy the Course Director was of course eager to try to trip me up on the gear checks, and he _did_ manage to do this with this threading of the chest strap. (I'm a good target and enjoyed the fun anyway.) When we came around the corner after the gear check he asked everyone to "pay up". :) While we all assumed this was an error in the gear check, I started thinking about it. Was it? Would it be a gear check error if the student got on an airplane with a safe routing of the chest strap? I don't think so. (Yes, there are plenty of arguments for _not_ doing it that way, but the black and white answer would be that it is safe.) And why didn't I notice this different routing? I looked _hard_ at that chest strap connector for 5 seconds, and detrmined that it was correct, and it was, just reveresed. The reason is that the view in the bottom part of the picture I posted is very close to the same angle as you would view your _own_ chest strap, and would look the same. Same angle. same view, same safety. Interesting how the mind views things. Now the other part of this.... This Course Director told me that another course that he attended included evaluators that were failing candidates for not flagging a chest strap routed in this manner as "improper". But is it? Shouldn't we base evaluations on safety, and not attempts to fail people for accepting chest strap routings that are indeed safe? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
karenmeal 0 #39 April 5, 2005 I think my answer to your question would have been the question: how does the manufacturer of the rig tell you to route the chest strap? If it was a way different than that which was pictured, then it would be wrong. And in the context of an instructor's course I think it is not your job to judge whether or not it would work, but to simply know the manufacturer's directions and follow those. -Karen "Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #40 April 5, 2005 Key word (highlighted) in those descriptions: Adapter, REVERSIBLE, Quick Fit. So now, WHO wins WHAT?? -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #41 April 5, 2005 It may not be not "proper" ,but its not the best possible utilization of a device. wallysmile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #42 April 5, 2005 QuoteI think my answer to your question would have been the question: how does the manufacturer of the rig tell you to route the chest strap? The manufaturer of the hardware says it is reversable. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #43 April 5, 2005 QuoteGary, Now look what you started. I thought some of you might like a look at the original specs on the MS 70101. Jeff The data sheets you posted are for a 1.75" adapter and the one in the picture is a 1" adapter. I do not think you will find a Mil-Spec. drawing on a 1". SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #44 April 5, 2005 QuoteThe data sheets you posted are for a 1.75" adapter and the one in the picture is a 1" adapter. Nope, the pic is a 1.75 buckle. Mirage's don't have 1" buckles. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #45 April 5, 2005 QuoteQuoteThe data sheets you posted are for a 1.75" adapter and the one in the picture is a 1" adapter. Nope, the pic is a 1.75 buckle. Mirage's don't have 1" buckles. Derek My mistake, the bottom picture sure looks like a 1". SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #46 April 5, 2005 I still maintain while I'd let people jump with it, it isn't as the manufacturer intended. Is it safe from a practicle manner. Sure, the hardware is reversible and going out and around the chest there is probably more friction on it this way. But, IF the manufacturer chose to put a fold back on it, and I have seen buckles slip to the stopper, then it ought to be used as intended. Or at least the non student owner informed of the information to make an informed decision. I'd do this in a test for discussion but wouldn't count it against someone. YOUR WRONG!!!! YOUR ALL WRONG!!!!! (maniacal laughter as he runs away) (Planning your wedding will make you crazy!!!!)I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
karenmeal 0 #47 April 5, 2005 Ok, but what does the manufacturer of the rig say? "Life is a temporary victory over the causes which induce death." - Sylvester Graham Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #48 April 6, 2005 I say "unsafe". It is too hard to do a gear check at a glance. So you are eliminating a safety step regarless of wether or not it holds. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #49 April 6, 2005 QuoteOk, but what does the manufacturer of the rig say? What kind of a rigger's answer is that? -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #50 April 6, 2005 Quote Ok, but what does the manufacturer of the rig say? I dunno, didn't ask. Remember, manufacturers are not all knowing. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
