landing patterns (kind of long)

[Icon134 0]

I wanted to start a thread about landing pattern and direction (based on the thread quoted below)... even though I know it has been discussed to before... but thought that it might be more appropiate to pull it over here.

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Immediately following Bryan's impact, a senior skydiver came over the intercom and chastised everyone for not landing into the wind as he (seemingly) perceived it as a contributing factor. This guy has over 12,000 jumps (and makes a mean pasta dish).

If scotty believes that this was a factor then I'm inclined to believe that this is the case.

I had several discussions this weekend about landing patterns and I even setup for a downwind landing (at maybe 5 mph...) because the landing pattern was set a certain way at take off... And there were people that were landing against me. The area was large enough to accomidate the number of people landing but I still shouldn't have seen people landing towards me when the pattern was set before getting on the plane (esp in the light to variable winds we had on sunday...)

I took flack for it (mostly because it wasn't the prettiest landing, I PLF'd it and rolled a couple of times but walked away...)

but I've also taken flack for not following the planned approach pattern (which was not unjustified... and I deserved it...)

I've heard many landing approach policies (Perris I'm told is set by the first jumper down...) but reciently it seems to me people may be getting more complacent about landing approaches...)

Scott

(new jumper warning... please don't bite my head off...)

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[tombuch 0]

Hey Scott:

The topic of landing direction has been hashed out here about a million times. The verdict is that there isn't a right way or a wrong way to establish landing direction, but whatever method is used should be followed by everybody.

The three typical ways of defining landing direction are:
1) First person down sets the direction
2) Everybody follows a specific wind direction device
3) Everybody agrees in advance what the landing direction will be, then follows it.

At The Ranch we use the third method. There are still conflicts, but at least we have an established means of defining landing direction. For a discussion of our approach, see Article 12 "Landing Direction Defined" at http://ranchskydive.com/safety/index.htm
.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[dmetz 0]

I hear ya man. Last weekend at a local dz the winds were quite light if any and the sock was barely moving all morning. Since there were nearly no winds, we were following the first guy down. On my third jump of the day, I was near the middle of the pack after opening. I watched the first landing, and it seemed a little wobbly from my viewpoint, and the second took a sideways gust after touch down and tumbled a little, the third went almost sideways just above the ground but managed to collect only a few grass stains. I was catching glimpses of all this while steering through an already crowded sky following the pattern of those before me. As I turned on my base, I noticed a couple others eating shit on landing as well. And I knew that I was by far the most inexperienced on the load, other than one student. Apparently the winds had picked up and were moving. I finally got a look at the tiny wind sock rotating as I was on final. I was at this time, now heading downwind running over the entire LZ, luckily its a long one. I decided I wasn't going to attempt a correction because of my position and everyone else's. I just barely missed the runway taxi turn around at the end of the LZ, I mean by inches, and the came to a painless sliding stop just before a steel drainage grate, again by inches. And when I got up and looked back, people were heading my way in the same predicament. The highest jumper in the air apparently noticed what was going on and changed her pattern and had the best landing of the load, and she was the student.

I suppose this doesn't answer any questions, but it does serve as another example of landing pattern problems.

_________________________________________

"If a vegetarian eats vegetables, what does a humanitarian eat?"

[ianmdrennan 2]

I can land safely in 20mph downwind conditions, quite easily (even though I don't particularly enjoy it - I do like comfortable landings
If you think landing in whatever direction you choose in the main landing area is safer than the set direction for that area, you're dreaming.

People need to start thinking under canopy. The canopies are getting faster, but the thought process is still stuck in the early 80's.

It's time for instructors to step up to the plate, educate themselves and be SURE they are passing along the correct info to their students. Too many people are stuck in the "I've done it this way for 20 years mentality". Of course that doesn't mean it doesn't have it's place, but when we're dealing with a particularly progressive aspect of the sport, we need to apply pro-active not re-active reasoning to it in regards to decisions, how we spread information, and how proactive we are in seeking it out.

edit:

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and the second took a sideways gust after touch down and tumbled a little, the third went almost sideways just above the ground but managed to collect only a few grass stains.

I'd bet those were the usual reaching for the ground while landing situations. Landing in 30 mph crosswinds are a breeze if you KEEP FLYING the canopy. Most people put their feet down too early, start falling and then put their hand out (with the toggle still in it) to try and stop their fall - of course this only makes it worse.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[panzwami 0]

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because the landing pattern was set a certain way at take off...

Just to clarify, do you mean that the landing direction was agreed to by the jumpers on that load, prior to takeoff?

If that's the case, I would think those jumpers who landed in a different direction would have been in the wrong. It shouldn't happen, but it's still something that you have to watch for.

(Not that right or wrong really matters, because a collision is still a collision, regardless of fault.)

[Icon134 0]

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Just to clarify, do you mean that the landing direction was agreed to by the jumpers on that load, prior to takeoff?

In the morning (aka before the first load) the landing pattern was set in a certain direction (e.g. right hand pattern, so as not to fly over the runway on downwind leg, and landing with the runway on the left) and even though the wind had changed (as I said before it was at a maximum of 5-7 mph all day...) a couple of the people decided to change the pattern and land into the wind based on the wind sock. (everyone landed safely mostly because the LZ is large...)

Later in the day the pattern was changed, and the instructors were more adamant about the importance of maintaining the pattern.

Understand as Ian can probably attest I've screwed up before and took justifiable flack for it.

I've just seen a lot of people in the last several months that aren't maintaining a standard approach pattern. (aka landing in a variety of directions on the same load...) if you're the only one in the air it isn't a problem its when you're not that it becomes and issue.

Scott

Livin' on the Edge... sleeping with my rigger's wife...

[Remster 30]

Follow the damm rules, whatever the local DZ rule is dammit....

Either 1st man down sets the patern, thetrahedron, or agreed direction on the load/day, but please, find a system that works and stick with it....

Remster

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Follow the damm rules, whatever the local DZ rule is dammit....

If only it were that easy Remi. Our own S&TA doesn't follow the set landing direction. Neither do at least 2 of our other AFF instructors. If they don't follow it, how can we expect others to?

Funny thing is, I don't think they'd like it too much if I went whichever way I wanted on landing each time.

We have an alternate landing area just for those who don't want to land in the set direction.

If students see their instructors breaking the rules, how can we expect them to move up in the sport believing that they are required to follow them?

It really pisses me off.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[wmw999 2,595]

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Follow the damm rules, whatever the local DZ rule is dammit....

And, frankly, each local DZ should post the landing rules, especially if they change for a given day (e.g. right hand vs. left hand depending on wind direction).

Not every periodic jumper will remember if they travel, not every visitor will be briefed. And sometimes they'll guess wrong.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)