Why negativity about AADs is disturbing

[kelpdiver 2]

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But if you had a gear check before exit and found out that you forgot to turn your AAD on....If you decide not to go, then you do rely on it. If you will not jump without an AAD...you do rely on it.

Or you've determined that if you fucked up your pre boarding check in that aspect, that you're not confident in the rest of your checks and you *wisely* choose to ride down.

If this thread encourages someone who normally "relies" on their Cypres to jump after discovering it is dead on jump run, then Kallend's fears are realized.

[kelpdiver 2]

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A kayak and a paddle is required to go kayaking, a PFD and helmet is not.

You keep saying this, Derek, but I'm sorry, you're wrong. In any form of river whitewater, it would be a foolish risk to forego the equipment. My experience is more from the rafting side, but the fact remains that there are unknown hazards ahead in the river, that change with every winter and every day, and you need to protect the head and maintain the ability to float. You need to step down to class II where it might be an acceptable risk for a rafter - still not sure for a kayaker. A lot of people sink in fresh water, esp lower density turbulent water.

An AAD is less essential, but you're then ignoring indisputable statistics that you're increasing your risk going without. (Saying statistics are a murky science is weaseling - the numbers are brain dead obvious)

I think these threads might be more productive focusing on the increasing number of AAD fires/saves. That's really the focus of your complaint, right?

[Hooknswoop 19]

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You keep saying this, Derek, but I'm sorry, you're wrong. In any form of river whitewater, it would be a foolish risk to forego the equipment.

A risk, yes. A foolish one in your opinion. But the fact is they are not required. I go mountain biking all the time without a helmet. Does it increase the chances I'll be injured if i crash? Yes. It does not affect at all the chances that I will crash.

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An AAD is less essential, but you're then ignoring indisputable statistics that you're increasing your risk going without.

I am not ignoring the statistics at all. I've said several times AAD's are good and can save you (read my new post/thread on the topic). People seem to think that because of an AAD, a jump that was too risky is now accaptable. If the chances of a collision aqre to high on a jump, an AAD does not change those risks.

Jumper "A" feels a 20-way is too risky.

Jumper "B" feels a 20-way isn't too risky.

Jumper "A does a 20-way because they now have a Cypres.

They both have Cypres's, they are both doing a 20-way. Is there a difference between the 2 jumpers?

Do you think it is ever OK to exceed you personal acceptable risk threshold because you have a safety device?

If your personal limit is class 2 whitewater kayaking, would you kayak class 3 because you have a PFD?

Would you run a red light because you have airbags and not run a red light without airbags?

Derek

[nicknitro71 0]

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How does having an AAD decrease the chances of getting knocked unconscious that you find unacceptable?

Let me change few things:

How does having a reserve decrease the chances of having a mulfunctioning main you find unacceptable?

It does not but when the shit hits the fan my AAD fires in the first case and my reserve opens after a cutaway in the second case.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[kelpdiver 2]

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A risk, yes. A foolish one in your opinion. But the fact is they are not required. I go mountain biking all the time without a helmet. Does it increase the chances I'll be injured if i crash? Yes. It does not affect at all the chances that I will crash.

A PFD/helmet are not required because there is virtually no regulation of the sport. If there were any, the equipment would be mandated. The wetsuit, otoh, would be in the strongly recommended category, just like the AAD is.

If you fall off your bike, the impact may hurt or kill you, but no further damage will be done. And someone can easily come along and attend to you. In the water the helmet is there to stop the initial blow, but is more about preventing unconsciousness. Coupled with the PFD that prevents drowning after the impact. If you sink in rough or dark water, you're probably dead, even if people see you go under.

In the first few postings, you certainly did challege the validity of the statistics Kallend referred to.

But really, this is beside the point. Instead of making crappy driving analogies and unproveable assertions of what people are thinking on the go/no go decision, what are you hoping to improve? Bashing newer jumpers for 'gear dependency' doesn't improve the situation.

The last AAD related fatality was a jump perfectly within the person's means. For many of the other bad saves where the jumper sat and did nothing, the difficulty of the jump didn't seem to be the underlying cause. They just froze up, or saw something unusual and did nothing about it, said (truthfully or not) that they decided to wait for it to fire.

Other than not overselling the ability of the AAD to student jumpers, what training do you change to improve this sort of event? It's fairly challenging to safely test for tendency to panic, or to realistically simulate a lot of malfunctions in the air.

You don't want people to believe the AAD will save them. You want them to be dealing with the problem until the cutter fires anyway. But Kallend is saying that if preventing fatalities (as opposed to 'better' skydivers) is the goal, encouraging non use is counterproductive.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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How does having a reserve decrease the chances of having a mulfunctioning main you find unacceptable?

It doesn't. If I felt the chances of a main malfunctioning were too high, I would jump that main.

Again, a reserve is mandatory in the U.S for skydiving, an AAD is not (except for tandem jumps).

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

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what are you hoping to improve?

For people to not exceed their personal acceptable risk thresholds because they have an AAD.

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encouraging non use is counterproductive.

I can show you numerous places where I encourage AAD use, just in this thread. Can you show me where I dis courage their use? Again, you are saying I said something I didn't say.

Maybe my other post/thread will makie more sense to you. I am tired of having people say things like I am discouraging AAD usage when that clearly is not the case. You are hearing what you want to hear and not what I wrote.

Derek

[kelpdiver 2]

The end result of these threads encourages non use. Sunshine should do coaching jumps without one. If a jump run shows the AAD off, you should be willing to jump anyway. If you're not willing to jump without one, you have an unhealthy reliance on this one piece of gear (nevermind the others). And lots of people go without on their second rig, or during service intervals, etc.

Anyone shopping for their first rig with an eye on the bottom line will watch these conversations very closely for justification to skip that purchase. I came very close to going at least a few months without - in the fall inventory of used C1s was very bad and I was between jobs. Would I have ended up a 'better' skydiver had I done so, or just a slightly less 'safe' one?

> You are hearing what you want to hear and not what I wrote.

I think that was the entire reason Kallend started this thread. People tend to do that, so are these threads counterproductive to safety?

[Hooknswoop 19]

How did you get;

“The end result of these threads encourages non use.”

Out of;

“I have never said don't use an AAD. In fact, I have said using an AAD is a good idea. I am [not] posting negatively about AAD usage, I am posting negatively about how some people use them. "

Or;

“* Jumping with an AAD, helmet, etc is a good thing and everyone should have these things.”??????

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Sunshine should do coaching jumps without one.

What? No, that is not what I am saying at all. Not even close.

I am saying, for Sunshine’s example, her personal acceptable risk threshold is below coaching newer free flyer. Since she has determined that jumping with them there is too high of a chance for a collision, she should not coach newer freeflyers. I am saying she should NOT do the coaching jumps, since she feels they are too risky.

How did you get;

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If a jump run shows the AAD off, you should be willing to jump anyway. If you're not willing to jump without one, you have an unhealthy reliance on this one piece of gear (nevermind the others).

Out of;

“Refusing not to jump w/o a Cypres is OK. They are great and you should jump with one. Using a AAD to exceed your personal acceptable risk threshold is not OK because it isn’t smart to use back up safety devices that may not work to justify doing something you feel is too risky.”??????

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Anyone shopping for their first rig with an eye on the bottom line will watch these conversations very closely for justification to skip that purchase. I came very close to going at least a few months without - in the fall inventory of used C1s was very bad and I was between jobs. Would I have ended up a 'better' skydiver had I done so, or just a slightly less 'safe' one?

Hopefully having an AAD or not having an AAD would have made no difference to how good of a skydiver you ended up. An AAD doesn’t make you a better skydiver or a better canopy pilot. Not sure where you are going with this question.

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You are hearing what you want to hear and not what I wrote.

I think that was the entire reason Kallend started this thread. People tend to do that, so are these threads counterproductive to safety?

He started this thread so you could hear what you wanted to hear?

He also said someone ALWAYS misunderstands and that I should make sure no one misunderstands. He still hasn't answered how I am supposed to do something he says is impossible.

I write; “Jump with an AAD” and you say I wrote; ”Don’t jump with an AAD”. I don’t know how to fix that. I guess I could try saying; “Don’t jump with an AAD” and see if you read that as “Jump with an AAD”

Derek

[sundevil777 102]

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I am saying, for Sunshine’s example, her personal acceptable risk threshold is below coaching newer free flyer. Since she has determined that jumping with them there is too high of a chance for a collision, she should not coach newer freeflyers. I am saying she should NOT do the coaching jumps, since she feels they are too risky.

I don't think anyone should be coaching new free flyers without an AAD. 13 years ago we would have coached them, but I don't think it is wise now.

I don't know how anyone can prove they're not dependant on it without jumping without it.

So, a lot of people are dependant. Even those that admit that they do more risky jumps because of it would likely do the same jumps anyway if AADs had not advanced in the last 13 years.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I don't think anyone should be coaching new free flyers without an AAD.

That's fine, if they don't feel coaching freeflyers is beyond their personnel acceptable risk threshold.

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I don't know how anyone can prove they're not dependant on it without jumping without it.

I don't they have to prove anything. Like I said in the other thread:

"Each skydiver must honestly determine for themselves their acceptable risk threshold. How much risk is acceptable to you is a personal decision, make an informed and honest decision. How high of winds will you jump in? How big of a RW or free-fly jump will you do, etc. Set these limits and periodically review them as you gain experience abilities and possible how much risk you are willing to accept changes (more or less risk). "

and;

"How do you determine if you are using a Cypres to exceed your personal risk threshold or just feel you should always jump with one because it is a good idea to have one? I know of no pass/fail test you can do to make that determination. You have to be honest with yourself and make an honest assessment of how much risk is acceptable and how much risks you are taking, leaving the Cypres out of this determination. Do this the same way you would decide if running a red light is too risky or not without taking the airbags into account. "

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Even those that admit that they do more risky jumps because of it would likely do the same jumps anyway if AADs had not advanced in the last 13 years.

If they say they won't do xyz because it is too risky, they shouldn't do it w/ an AAD.

Derek

[sunshine 2]

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No Ron. She is not going on jumps she is unqualified for just because she has a CYPRES, she is managing her risk on jumps she is qualified for in a way that is her business and not yours. Her friend, and mine, was killed coaching a newbie who corked. His CYPRES was not turned on.

IMO anyone that does freefly coaching with newbies and no CYPRES is crazy.

Thank you professor.

On a personal note, i had the honor of giving John his first kiss pass when he had like 70ish jumps.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[Hooknswoop 19]

How does an AAD decrease the chances of a collision on a freefly coach jump, odds that you find too high?

Derek

[sunshine 2]

Get over yourself hook. I'm not even gonna bother trying to have a discussion with you because you're not capable of it. You have an opinion and you will continually push your opinion and not be open to anything different. For someone that left the sport because he doesnt' like what skydiving has become, you sure do hang around a lot....

I have made my decision and thats it. You don't like it, and i don't care what you think. Leave me alone already.

Oh and if anyone cares, i have landed unconscious under a parachute before. I'm very thankful that i'm still alive.

___________________________________________
meow

I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug!

[kelpdiver 2]

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I write; “Jump with an AAD” and you say I wrote; ”Don’t jump with an AAD”. I don’t know how to fix that. I guess I could try saying; “Don’t jump with an AAD” and see if you read that as “Jump with an AAD”

Sheesh - talk about reading what you wanted to see. Much easier to debate. Long known as the Strawman. You might ask why you equate the thread with yourself.

I've got a lot of free time, but not that much.

[Ron 10]

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Or you've determined that if you fucked up your pre boarding check in that aspect, that you're not confident in the rest of your checks and you *wisely* choose to ride down.

I can confidently do a gear check on the plane....What part of a gear check do you have to do on the ground?

Hell, I can have several gear checks on the plane. A gear check is a gear check. If you don't trust the one you can get in flight you had beetr not trust the one you get on the ground...Unless you consider a reserve repack as part of a gear check.

Fear of not doing a good gear check is a lame reason to land in the plane.....Since you can easily get one at altitude.

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If this thread encourages someone who normally "relies" on their Cypres to jump after discovering it is dead on jump run, then Kallend's fears are realized.

Kallends fears are nothing more than trying to start shit.

If you understand what Hook, Bill and myself are saying you would be much safer than just listening to John.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Hooknswoop 19]

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You have an opinion and you will continually push your opinion and not be open to anything different. For someone that left the sport because he doesnt' like what skydiving has become, you sure do hang around a lot....

I have made my decision and thats it.

I suppose there is a part of me that hopes skydiving will change.

I don't see how an AAD allows you to exceed your personal acceptable risk threshold. An AAD does not reduce the risk of a collision. If the risk is too high, the risk is too high.

I think it is good you think about these things, I just disagree with using an AAD to do something you normally consider too risky. I know you disagree and that's OK.

Derek

[sundevil777 102]

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I don't see how an AAD allows you to exceed your personal acceptable risk threshold.

I think that 13 years ago the personal risk threshold would be viewed differently. Now we have a choice to only do the more 'challenging' jumps with a modern AAD, back then we would have just done it anyway.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am