MarkM 0 #26 April 28, 2005 QuotePart of the video was definitely edited... the original "iron cross" tracker fades away and is replaced by a canopy. There's something missing... He took out the part where you see JFK's killer shoot from behind the grassy knoll... Hey SuperKat, if you don't want to deal with talking to your friend it's always amazing how video can sometimes just make its way to the S&TA of a DZ through no fault of the person that took the video. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #27 April 28, 2005 Quotesomething looks a little squirrely about the section of video that shows your risers after deployment. not sure if it's from the "moisture" on the lens or what. did you edit out part of this video at all? it could just be my old eyes playing tricks on me. Correct my dear Watson. I did edit this video. Quoteeither way, the guy that opened near you - if he's certain he did nothing wrong, then don't jump with him again. that's your perrogative.I will have a serious talk with him and a JM. I don't want to be prick like that. We'll just lecture him and this time I won't have my back to him. I'm totally a defensive skydiver if I'm not trying to get a money shot, which I will not do any more. Quotebut talking to someone else more experienced than both of you and having them check out the video is a great idea. Well some JMs did see the video. They all winced and cringed when they saw the video. They were all glad that we were okay. They heard me and other jumpsuit guy argue about how close he came to me. They didn't intervene but they did hear me tell him to pick a point on the ground in front of him to make sure he's tracking far enough and to look out for other skydivers above, below, left and right of him before he deploys. Quotethere's no f-ing way any two people should be that close on opening (except for a tandem inst and his/her passenger ). i think there's more to this than what you've written... I hear ya. Not really. It's pretty cut and dry. Like I said, I cued the parts of the film which showed his canopy opening, which was the time I turned my head towards him and saw him there. Any footage before that was just open air right before I sat in my harness. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #28 April 28, 2005 QuoteWhat was the other guy saying just as you two opened? It also seems like there is 1 or 2 seconds missing on the video! He just yelled out. "Hey". Like he usually does when he sees me arriving at the dropzone. We like to yell at eachother. Missing video is open air while I deployed and while I was starting to sit up in my harness. I purposely edited that out so that you didn't have to wait 1-2 seconds to see the exciting part. What's wrong with you people? Don't you just like to get to the action? Do you really want to see 1 or 2 seconds of open sky? Lol What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #29 April 28, 2005 QuoteThe guy most prominently on the vid has a pretty lame "iron cross" track, but he isn't the one you have the close encounter with, right? hehehehehe now now be nice. Yes, he is not the one that I have a problem with. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #30 April 28, 2005 QuotePart of the video was definitely edited... the original "iron cross" tracker fades away and is replaced by a canopy. There's something missing... Fine! You want open air and nothing on video, I will post it. Sheesh. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #31 April 28, 2005 QuoteQuotePart of the video was definitely edited... the original "iron cross" tracker fades away and is replaced by a canopy. There's something missing... I concur unedited open air it is then. I'll repost the video shortly. Sheesh. You guys are so cynical. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #32 April 28, 2005 QuoteThis guy obviously has problems. This is the 2nd time he's done it to me. Okay, different point of view after re-reading these posts several times and re-watching the video. Like someone else said, I relaly hope I don't come off like an ass-hat here, but I just can't beleive that others aren't also remarking about this more either, and well... sorry, but, here goes... You talk all "high & mighty" about lecturing this jumper, yada-yada-yada. But where the H*** is YOUR culpability here?? Wasn't it YOUR job too to see these other jumpers?? For Christ-sake this was just a lousy stinkin' 3-way (with you as one of the 3-way PARTICIPANTS it appears), with BOTH of these other guys on "break-off" also RIGHT THERE, in front of YOU! Remember, YOU also (quite apparently) deployed right there next to him TOO!! It takes 2 to have a collision, but it ONLY TAKES ONE to avoid it!! ...and in this case, NEITHER of you, as I see it was that ONE! You BOTH relied on nothing more than dumb luck!! And, if your earlier statements on this are absolutely so too, and you ALREADY (supposedly) knew that this guy had tracking issues ("HE" did this "TO YOU" before), ...then I'm sorry man, but YOU put YOU in this position more than him, and I would suggest that YOU actually in this case may have even MORE responsibility as a result than him! Like I say, sorry to sound like such an ass, but IMHO you really need to THINK about this! ...and NOT all just that you were either totally not in the wrong yourself with this either! When (more like "if", but apparently NOT ) you saw (or SHOULD HAVE SEEN) that this guy was not tracking away from you, maybe you could have taken some action too, other than just blithely also deploying your canopy right next to him too? What was that alt, you were breaking at? Deployment alt? DID you have any OTHER options, or were you so critically LOW that you put yourself OUT of options?? Certainly did not look that way based on the vid, but I did think it was worth asking/perhaps stimulating some HONEST re-assessment! Seriously. Just trying to give you something MORE to think about. What do you think?coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canuck 0 #33 April 28, 2005 My guess is that as you were focusing on videoing the lamest track I have ever seen someone not wearing a helmet do, you were backsliding and keeping up with the other guys (obviously also lame)track. This isn't intended as a flame, but here is perfect example of how adding a video camera can seriously add complexity and danger to a jump for a relatively inexperienced skydiver. This could have been a double fatality... As for the other guy not thinking you were that close, when you can have a conversation before your toggles are unstowed, you're too fucking close! Canuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #34 April 28, 2005 Ok, I'm still missing something here. JFK and grassy knoll comments aside, let's think about this for a second. You guys are both seated (deployment ends) side by side. That means you deployed roughly over the same spot on the ground. You say that when you dumped, and during your "1100 ft" deployment, there was nothing but clear airspace around you. Which would have to mean that he opened at a lower altitude than you (over the same spot on the ground) and had a faster deployment than yours, allowing you to end up side by side. If this is the case, and he opened below you, did you look down before deployment? What did you see? Of course, the above doesn't really make sense, because if you were in a 3 way with him, there's no way he would get significantly lower than you (but remain over the same ground spot) before pulling. And if he wasn't significantly below you, he was right next to you, which is even worse. I am curious to see the whole video as I know many others are. If you only wanted to show the deployment, as it is the only relevant part, why did you show the end of the freefall? If you honestly want us to analyze the video, why not show us what your eyes see the whole time? Of the two possible scenarios I considered above, the guy was either very close to you (somewhere in your 360 peripheral) or directly below you on deployment. In either case, a 360 peripheral scan, followed by a look down, before deployment, would have made you aware of him before you initiated deployment. I'm not placing the blame of this "incident" on you, since the other guy clearly didn't track anywhere (actually it's not clear since that part is missing in the video), but I am confused as to how you weren't aware of where he was when you went to deploy. When I track away from a 4 way, I look over my shoulders and through my legs and COUNT the other 3 jumpers (unless I know them really well). If I was pulling in place (to film one member of a 3 way tracking away), I would certainly look behind me to ensure the other member had tracked away too, before I pulled. If you are ABOVE the 3 way, you have the luxury of not looking since they are already all 3 in your sights. So where was he when you deployed? My guess is he was right behind you.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #35 April 28, 2005 QuoteMy guess is that as you were focusing on videoing the lamest track I have ever seen someone not wearing a helmet do Heh, that's the funniest comment I've ever heard someone not wearing a helmet make... www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #36 April 28, 2005 QuoteYou talk all "high & mighty" about lecturing this jumper, yada-yada-yada. But where the H*** is YOUR culpability here?? Wasn't it YOUR job too to see these other jumpers?? For Christ-sake this was just a lousy stinkin' 3-way (with you as one of the 3-way PARTICIPANTS it appears), with BOTH of these other guys on "break-off" also RIGHT THERE, in front of YOU! Remember, YOU also (quite apparently) deployed right there next to him TOO!! It takes 2 to have a collision, but it ONLY TAKES ONE to avoid it!! ...and in this case, NEITHER of you, as I see it was that ONE! You BOTH relied on nothing more than dumb luck!! You are absolutely right. It should have been my responsibility to look out for him. Like I said in a previous post, the last 15 jumps with him, he tracked away with no problem. We even made sure that everyone knew the dive flow and that I was pulling in place. I trusted him enough to track away from the other jumper because he was inline with the other jumper. I've seen him do it before. You're right though, I should have been more responsible and looked out for other people. I usually do when I'm in the formation and I track away from the group. This was my first time pulling in place. There's no excuse for it. I reacted first without watching my surroundings. I trusted the other two to clear my surroundings for me. That was obviously a big mistake. So yes, I am not trying to take away fault here. We were both wrong. Thank goodness no one died as a result of it. Believe me, I'm not going to be pulling in place for a long time now. I'm just going to continue what I usually do, track away and be alert of everyone else's position. QuoteAnd, if your earlier statements on this are absolutely so too, and you ALREADY (supposedly) knew that this guy had tracking issues ("HE" did this "TO YOU" before), ...then I'm sorry man, but YOU put YOU in this position more than him, and I would suggest that YOU actually in this case may have even MORE responsibility as a result than him! Like I mentioned in an earlier post. The past 15 jumps from the first time he committed the offense, he tracked a lot better and further away. I put too much trust in him and I didn't rely on myself to keep the whole skydive safe. That's where I was wrong too. QuoteLike I say, sorry to sound like such an ass, but IMHO you really need to THINK about this! ...and NOT all just that you were either totally not in the wrong yourself with this either! When (more like "if", but apparently NOT ) you saw (or SHOULD HAVE SEEN) that this guy was not tracking away from you, maybe you could have taken some action too, other than just blithely also deploying your canopy right next to him too? It's not gong to be a problem any longer because I will not pull in place anymore. I'm going to track away like I normally do and be alert as to where everyone is before I deploy. QuoteWhat was that alt, you were breaking at? Deployment alt?4,500 QuoteDID you have any OTHER options, or were you so critically LOW that you put yourself OUT of options?? Certainly did not look that way based on the vid, but I did think it was worth asking/perhaps stimulating some HONEST re-assessment! When we broke off at 4,500 feet. I taped my friend tracking away for a few seconds. It was already 3,300 or 3,200 feet. My canopy takes about 1,100 feet to open. I assumed (big mistake) that everyone was clear and far from me, at least I knew the yellow jumpsuit guy was. So it was my mistake not to turn around and make sure the other guy wasn't near. If you see the video, he was actually above me. If you notice the yellow jumpsuit guy tracking away, I went low big time. The other guy falls very slow so I guess he was above me because as you see when I'm touching my risers, the lines of his canopy just finished stretching out below me. I guess you can say I was wrong to put myself in that kind of predicament. Well, it happened and I'm not going to pull in place any longer. I'm usually alert with my surroundings. It was just this one time where I fell asleep on my common sense. Like someone else said, all it takes is one strike. Believe me, this is a wake up call. QuoteSeriously. Just trying to give you something MORE to think about. What do you think? I read you loud and clear tough guy. I appreciate it. Blue skies. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #37 April 28, 2005 QuoteMy guess is that as you were focusing on videoing the lamest track I have ever seen someone not wearing a helmet do, you were backsliding and keeping up with the other guys (obviously also lame)track. Lol That's messed up. He thinks he tracks well. hehehehehe Dude, I wasn't backsliding. Look at the video again. I stayed in place. I'm not the best skydiver out there, far from it. One thing I can say is that I fly stable in one spot without backsliding or turning. QuoteThis isn't intended as a flame, but here is perfect example of how adding a video camera can seriously add complexity and danger to a jump for a relatively inexperienced skydiver. This could have been a double fatality... I realize that. It was my mistake not to see where the other guy was. Believe me, it's not going to happen again. I usually just fly pretending the camera is not on my head and missing some shots or just getting peoples faces and what not. I don't really concentrate on getting good footage. That's not my goal when I'm doing RW with friends. It was just this one time that I was focusing on my friend that thinks he can track well. Bad mistake that I made! QuoteAs for the other guy not thinking you were that close, when you can have a conversation before your toggles are unstowed, you're too fucking close! Tell me about it. I was scared and relieved at the same time. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scrumpot 1 #38 April 28, 2005 QuoteI did too. However, I carried out my part of the plan and stayed in place and pulled in place. I guess mistakes just happen. Thank goodness it wasn't a fatal mistake. Pulling in place is for the video-man who is flying video ABOVE the formation to do AT TIME OF BREAK-OFF! Instead, it looks like to me that you stayed DURING break-off "in place" while still falling "down-the-pipe" and only watching ONE of the 3 of you (and supposedly NOT the one you had "any known problems with), then deployed at the SAME "pre-set" (presumably) deployment altitude as the others had. Sorry again dude, but YOU set YOURSELF up for this, and you need to be HONESTLY more self-critical about this too. Doesn't any one else see anything wrong with this scenario too? It's one thing to be all "PC"/nice to jumpers in these forums, and try not to "upset" anyone, but PLEASE ...someone else then maybe... help me out here a little bit! ...Or am I an idiot?? Maybe I just need to hang this whole gig up. Tell me too then.... how the hell did you know where Mr. Iron Cross tracker was going too? Where was HE when you pitched? Do you KNOW? Maybe when I see the UNEDITED version of your video these questions answers will become clear. But the way I see it, he certainly was NOT going very far in that position either, and as far as I know the ONLY horizontal separation you were getting there might have been coming out of YOUR back-sliding!! He did seem to stay significantly ABOVE you, so did you rock back on your knees any during this for you to keep him in frame so as to "get the shot"? How many video jumps do you have now? Again: QuoteHowever, I carried out my part of the plan and stayed in place and pulled in place. YOU made a BAD PLAN from the get-go under these circumstances! Then (to me) you failed to appropriately react to a clearly FAILED (I'll submit DOOMED) plan too, which if (as it seems by your posting demeanor) you were supposedly the most experienced on this jump too. THAT, makes this mostly YOUR responsibility to handle (or at least have the abilities to handle) and deal with don't you also think? As far as your base point though about realizing whether this deployment between you was really CLOSE or not... Sure as heck WAS!! And gives me a "pucker-factor" for sure every time I look at it! Yes, he (this other jumper) needs to realize that. But it seems to me like there's still SEVERAL aspects for your own good, that you need to realize (and accept and deal with) as well. Hopefully I haven't "lost you" with my points and observations. Like I say ...just as you relative to him... I *REALLY* don't mean to be a prick, but if the points can help, I feel I've at least got to try (to help ...not be a prick that is )! Blues, -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SuperKat 0 #39 April 28, 2005 Can you handle the truth? http://www.superkatnyc.com/tooclose02.htm What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Canuck 0 #40 April 28, 2005 QuoteDude, I wasn't backsliding. Look at the video again. I stayed in place. The video shows no evidence that you stayed in place. The body position you would have had to be in though to continue videoing the guy as he got higher above you is one that often results in backsliding - chest high, knees low. It's the classic tandem video position, and I can tell you from doing a few hundred tandem videos, that without really driving with your legs while in that position, you haul ass backwards. Without a fixed point of reference (i.e. a sitting tandem pair) you wouldn't likely even realize it though. You would be suprized how many people think that they're right down the tube... Canuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites The111 1 #41 April 28, 2005 QuoteDude, I wasn't backsliding. Look at the video again. I stayed in place. Um, it's impossible to tell if you were backsliding by looking at that video. If you really think the video proves you were or weren't backsliding, you're missing something fundamental about frames of reference.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites The111 1 #42 April 28, 2005 QuoteCan you handle the truth? http://www.superkatnyc.com/tooclose02.htm That's even scarier than it was before! I don't have much more experience than you, but there is some serious awareness issues going on. You open close to TWO jumpers, one of who you are looking right at before you dump, the other you would see if you looked up and to the left a bit. And to remain on topic, both of the other jumpers need to work on their tracking and awareness too...www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SuperKat 0 #43 April 28, 2005 QuoteYou guys are both seated (deployment ends) side by side. That means you deployed roughly over the same spot on the ground. You say that when you dumped, and during your "1100 ft" deployment, there was nothing but clear airspace around you. Which would have to mean that he opened at a lower altitude than you (over the same spot on the ground) and had a faster deployment than yours, allowing you to end up side by side. If this is the case, and he opened below you, did you look down before deployment? What did you see?I saw the ground coming up fast. Scary..... Check out the unedited vid I just posted. Let the truth be heard. I wasn't trying to hide anything. I was just trying to save bandwidth time and hard drive space but nooooo you all want to see open air and my beautiful canopy. QuoteI am curious to see the whole video as I know many others are. If you only wanted to show the deployment, as it is the only relevant part, why did you show the end of the freefall? If you honestly want us to analyze the video, why not show us what your eyes see the whole time? Because Mattlock, I wanted to show where my position during this whole skydive was. I know it was my fault for not turning around and looking to see where the other guy was. I already know that. Like I said, it won't happen again because I'm just sticking to what I always used to do, track away from the group and be alert of where everyone else is before I dump. QuoteOf the two possible scenarios I considered above, the guy was either very close to you (somewhere in your 360 peripheral) or directly below you on deployment. In either case, a 360 peripheral scan, followed by a look down, before deployment, would have made you aware of him before you initiated deployment. I did do a look down. I didn't do a look up and a 360 turn. That's my fault. QuoteI'm not placing the blame of this "incident" on you, since the other guy clearly didn't track anywhere (actually it's not clear since that part is missing in the video), but I am confused as to how you weren't aware of where he was when you went to deploy. When I track away from a 4 way, I look over my shoulders and through my legs and COUNT the other 3 jumpers (unless I know them really well). That's the problem. I thought I knew everyone well. I can't explain to you why he didn't track away. Normally, he does and he tracks far. I don't know what was so different this time. QuoteIf I was pulling in place (to film one member of a 3 way tracking away), I would certainly look behind me to ensure the other member had tracked away too, before I pulled. If you are ABOVE the 3 way, you have the luxury of not looking since they are already all 3 in your sights. The problem was that I was the low guy. Now that I think about it. He always deploys low, even when we break off at 4,500. I notice when my canopy is open at 2,200 feet, he's usually about 100 feet below me and far away from me and his lines are outstretched from his bag. I'm not trying to switch blame here but now I'm wondering why he deploys so low. If he deployed after 5 seconds of tracking we wouldn't even be having this conversation. If you count the seonds when yellow guy tracks away, it's about 10 seconds before I dump. He should have deployed earlier. I don't know. Maybe I'm talking out of my butt here. QuoteSo where was he when you deployed? My guess is he was right behind you. Behind me and above me. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites The111 1 #44 April 28, 2005 QuoteI saw the ground coming up fast. Scary..... Check out the unedited vid I just posted. Let the truth be heard. I wasn't trying to hide anything. I was just trying to save bandwidth time and hard drive space but nooooo you all want to see open air and my beautiful canopy. Actually, I don't see open air. IMO you don't even have adequate separation from the guy you were filming. Again, this is my opinion. You weren't in his face, but you really weren't too far away from him either. QuoteQuoteSo where was he when you deployed? My guess is he was right behind you. Behind me and above me. I'd say he was more above you, slightly to your left, and slightly in front of you. Not sure how he got there, but you can clearly see him in one frame of the video (I don't know how to take frame grabs, screen caps don't work on video for some reason). Your opening swings you off heading 90 degrees to the left (temporarily) and then you are facing right at him.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SuperKat 0 #45 April 28, 2005 QuotePulling in place is for the video-man who is flying video ABOVE the formation to do AT TIME OF BREAK-OFF! Yes I know that. I was wrong. I already said that. QuoteInstead, it looks like to me that you stayed DURING break-off "in place" while still falling "down-the-pipe" and only watching ONE of the 3 of you (and supposedly NOT the one you had "any known problems with), then deployed at the SAME "pre-set" (presumably) deployment altitude as the others had. Dude, we already discussed this. I said that it was my fault for not looking around me before I pulled. I know I was wrong. We're beating a dead horse with this one. QuoteSorry again dude, but YOU set YOURSELF up for this, and you need to be HONESTLY more self-critical about this too. Doesn't any one else see anything wrong with this scenario too? What's there to be sorry about? You're giving your opinion. If I didn't want to hear it I wouldn't have posted this video. Dude, I'm from NY, I can take any kind of criticism or advice you have whether it's harsh or not. And I thought I was already being self-critical when I fully accepted blame for this in my previous post. QuoteTell me too then.... how the hell did you know where Mr. Iron Cross tracker was going too? Where was HE when you pitched? Do you KNOW? Would you people stop calling him Iron Cross Tracker. He's not even here to defend himself. Poor guy. He thinks he tracks well. I know that he was far away from me because he tracked a good 7 seconds away from me. When I dumped his chute was already open. QuoteMaybe when I see the UNEDITED version of your video these questions answers will become clear. But the way I see it, he certainly was NOT going very far in that position either, and as far as I know the ONLY horizontal separation you were getting there might have been coming out of YOUR back-sliding!! He did seem to stay significantly ABOVE you, so did you rock back on your knees any during this for you to keep him in frame so as to "get the shot"? You're probably right. I can't argue the point because I can't prove it. And you do usually backslide when your head is looking up. Like I said in my previous post. I'm going to stick to what I normally do which is track away from the group, keep alert and aware of everyone else's position in the sky before I dump. QuoteHow many video jumps do you have now? Again: I have 100 video jumps. And none of them are money shot jumps. This was the first one. I'm lucky if I get people on the shot sometimes. That's not my goal when I jump with the camera. My goal is to jump and pretend it's not there. I try to just focus on RW and working on points. The camera is just a bonus. If I got it on video cool. If not, oh well. It was just this one time where iron cross tracker asked me to tape his beautiful track. I'll never do that again. QuoteHowever, I carried out my part of the plan and stayed in place and pulled in place. YOU made a BAD PLAN from the get-go under these circumstances! Then (to me) you failed to appropriately react to a clearly FAILED (I'll submit DOOMED) plan too, which if (as it seems by your posting demeanor) you were supposedly the most experienced on this jump too. THAT, makes this mostly YOUR responsibility to handle (or at least have the abilities to handle) and deal with don't you also think? Yes Grant. I said it over and over again. I will not do that any longer. I will stick to my original plan and track away from the group, be mindful of their whereabouts before I dump. I'm always a defensive skydiver. It was this one time where I decided to be stupid. Thank goodness I didn't have to pay with my life. I'm usually the one lecturing people about this. I guess I look like a hipocrite now. QuoteAs far as your base point though about realizing whether this deployment between you was really CLOSE or not... Sure as heck WAS!! And gives me a "pucker-factor" for sure every time I look at it! Shoot, it still makes my bung hole pucker because I can shit a brick just looking at it and reliving it. QuoteHopefully I haven't "lost you" with my points and observations. Like I say ...just as you relative to him... I *REALLY* don't mean to be a prick, but if the points can help, I feel I've at least got to try (to help ...not be a prick that is )! It is a tad bit long winded but nonetheless, it's helpful and appreciated. You're still a cool prick in my book. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #38 April 28, 2005 QuoteI did too. However, I carried out my part of the plan and stayed in place and pulled in place. I guess mistakes just happen. Thank goodness it wasn't a fatal mistake. Pulling in place is for the video-man who is flying video ABOVE the formation to do AT TIME OF BREAK-OFF! Instead, it looks like to me that you stayed DURING break-off "in place" while still falling "down-the-pipe" and only watching ONE of the 3 of you (and supposedly NOT the one you had "any known problems with), then deployed at the SAME "pre-set" (presumably) deployment altitude as the others had. Sorry again dude, but YOU set YOURSELF up for this, and you need to be HONESTLY more self-critical about this too. Doesn't any one else see anything wrong with this scenario too? It's one thing to be all "PC"/nice to jumpers in these forums, and try not to "upset" anyone, but PLEASE ...someone else then maybe... help me out here a little bit! ...Or am I an idiot?? Maybe I just need to hang this whole gig up. Tell me too then.... how the hell did you know where Mr. Iron Cross tracker was going too? Where was HE when you pitched? Do you KNOW? Maybe when I see the UNEDITED version of your video these questions answers will become clear. But the way I see it, he certainly was NOT going very far in that position either, and as far as I know the ONLY horizontal separation you were getting there might have been coming out of YOUR back-sliding!! He did seem to stay significantly ABOVE you, so did you rock back on your knees any during this for you to keep him in frame so as to "get the shot"? How many video jumps do you have now? Again: QuoteHowever, I carried out my part of the plan and stayed in place and pulled in place. YOU made a BAD PLAN from the get-go under these circumstances! Then (to me) you failed to appropriately react to a clearly FAILED (I'll submit DOOMED) plan too, which if (as it seems by your posting demeanor) you were supposedly the most experienced on this jump too. THAT, makes this mostly YOUR responsibility to handle (or at least have the abilities to handle) and deal with don't you also think? As far as your base point though about realizing whether this deployment between you was really CLOSE or not... Sure as heck WAS!! And gives me a "pucker-factor" for sure every time I look at it! Yes, he (this other jumper) needs to realize that. But it seems to me like there's still SEVERAL aspects for your own good, that you need to realize (and accept and deal with) as well. Hopefully I haven't "lost you" with my points and observations. Like I say ...just as you relative to him... I *REALLY* don't mean to be a prick, but if the points can help, I feel I've at least got to try (to help ...not be a prick that is )! Blues, -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #39 April 28, 2005 Can you handle the truth? http://www.superkatnyc.com/tooclose02.htm What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canuck 0 #40 April 28, 2005 QuoteDude, I wasn't backsliding. Look at the video again. I stayed in place. The video shows no evidence that you stayed in place. The body position you would have had to be in though to continue videoing the guy as he got higher above you is one that often results in backsliding - chest high, knees low. It's the classic tandem video position, and I can tell you from doing a few hundred tandem videos, that without really driving with your legs while in that position, you haul ass backwards. Without a fixed point of reference (i.e. a sitting tandem pair) you wouldn't likely even realize it though. You would be suprized how many people think that they're right down the tube... Canuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #41 April 28, 2005 QuoteDude, I wasn't backsliding. Look at the video again. I stayed in place. Um, it's impossible to tell if you were backsliding by looking at that video. If you really think the video proves you were or weren't backsliding, you're missing something fundamental about frames of reference.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #42 April 28, 2005 QuoteCan you handle the truth? http://www.superkatnyc.com/tooclose02.htm That's even scarier than it was before! I don't have much more experience than you, but there is some serious awareness issues going on. You open close to TWO jumpers, one of who you are looking right at before you dump, the other you would see if you looked up and to the left a bit. And to remain on topic, both of the other jumpers need to work on their tracking and awareness too...www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #43 April 28, 2005 QuoteYou guys are both seated (deployment ends) side by side. That means you deployed roughly over the same spot on the ground. You say that when you dumped, and during your "1100 ft" deployment, there was nothing but clear airspace around you. Which would have to mean that he opened at a lower altitude than you (over the same spot on the ground) and had a faster deployment than yours, allowing you to end up side by side. If this is the case, and he opened below you, did you look down before deployment? What did you see?I saw the ground coming up fast. Scary..... Check out the unedited vid I just posted. Let the truth be heard. I wasn't trying to hide anything. I was just trying to save bandwidth time and hard drive space but nooooo you all want to see open air and my beautiful canopy. QuoteI am curious to see the whole video as I know many others are. If you only wanted to show the deployment, as it is the only relevant part, why did you show the end of the freefall? If you honestly want us to analyze the video, why not show us what your eyes see the whole time? Because Mattlock, I wanted to show where my position during this whole skydive was. I know it was my fault for not turning around and looking to see where the other guy was. I already know that. Like I said, it won't happen again because I'm just sticking to what I always used to do, track away from the group and be alert of where everyone else is before I dump. QuoteOf the two possible scenarios I considered above, the guy was either very close to you (somewhere in your 360 peripheral) or directly below you on deployment. In either case, a 360 peripheral scan, followed by a look down, before deployment, would have made you aware of him before you initiated deployment. I did do a look down. I didn't do a look up and a 360 turn. That's my fault. QuoteI'm not placing the blame of this "incident" on you, since the other guy clearly didn't track anywhere (actually it's not clear since that part is missing in the video), but I am confused as to how you weren't aware of where he was when you went to deploy. When I track away from a 4 way, I look over my shoulders and through my legs and COUNT the other 3 jumpers (unless I know them really well). That's the problem. I thought I knew everyone well. I can't explain to you why he didn't track away. Normally, he does and he tracks far. I don't know what was so different this time. QuoteIf I was pulling in place (to film one member of a 3 way tracking away), I would certainly look behind me to ensure the other member had tracked away too, before I pulled. If you are ABOVE the 3 way, you have the luxury of not looking since they are already all 3 in your sights. The problem was that I was the low guy. Now that I think about it. He always deploys low, even when we break off at 4,500. I notice when my canopy is open at 2,200 feet, he's usually about 100 feet below me and far away from me and his lines are outstretched from his bag. I'm not trying to switch blame here but now I'm wondering why he deploys so low. If he deployed after 5 seconds of tracking we wouldn't even be having this conversation. If you count the seonds when yellow guy tracks away, it's about 10 seconds before I dump. He should have deployed earlier. I don't know. Maybe I'm talking out of my butt here. QuoteSo where was he when you deployed? My guess is he was right behind you. Behind me and above me. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #44 April 28, 2005 QuoteI saw the ground coming up fast. Scary..... Check out the unedited vid I just posted. Let the truth be heard. I wasn't trying to hide anything. I was just trying to save bandwidth time and hard drive space but nooooo you all want to see open air and my beautiful canopy. Actually, I don't see open air. IMO you don't even have adequate separation from the guy you were filming. Again, this is my opinion. You weren't in his face, but you really weren't too far away from him either. QuoteQuoteSo where was he when you deployed? My guess is he was right behind you. Behind me and above me. I'd say he was more above you, slightly to your left, and slightly in front of you. Not sure how he got there, but you can clearly see him in one frame of the video (I don't know how to take frame grabs, screen caps don't work on video for some reason). Your opening swings you off heading 90 degrees to the left (temporarily) and then you are facing right at him.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #45 April 28, 2005 QuotePulling in place is for the video-man who is flying video ABOVE the formation to do AT TIME OF BREAK-OFF! Yes I know that. I was wrong. I already said that. QuoteInstead, it looks like to me that you stayed DURING break-off "in place" while still falling "down-the-pipe" and only watching ONE of the 3 of you (and supposedly NOT the one you had "any known problems with), then deployed at the SAME "pre-set" (presumably) deployment altitude as the others had. Dude, we already discussed this. I said that it was my fault for not looking around me before I pulled. I know I was wrong. We're beating a dead horse with this one. QuoteSorry again dude, but YOU set YOURSELF up for this, and you need to be HONESTLY more self-critical about this too. Doesn't any one else see anything wrong with this scenario too? What's there to be sorry about? You're giving your opinion. If I didn't want to hear it I wouldn't have posted this video. Dude, I'm from NY, I can take any kind of criticism or advice you have whether it's harsh or not. And I thought I was already being self-critical when I fully accepted blame for this in my previous post. QuoteTell me too then.... how the hell did you know where Mr. Iron Cross tracker was going too? Where was HE when you pitched? Do you KNOW? Would you people stop calling him Iron Cross Tracker. He's not even here to defend himself. Poor guy. He thinks he tracks well. I know that he was far away from me because he tracked a good 7 seconds away from me. When I dumped his chute was already open. QuoteMaybe when I see the UNEDITED version of your video these questions answers will become clear. But the way I see it, he certainly was NOT going very far in that position either, and as far as I know the ONLY horizontal separation you were getting there might have been coming out of YOUR back-sliding!! He did seem to stay significantly ABOVE you, so did you rock back on your knees any during this for you to keep him in frame so as to "get the shot"? You're probably right. I can't argue the point because I can't prove it. And you do usually backslide when your head is looking up. Like I said in my previous post. I'm going to stick to what I normally do which is track away from the group, keep alert and aware of everyone else's position in the sky before I dump. QuoteHow many video jumps do you have now? Again: I have 100 video jumps. And none of them are money shot jumps. This was the first one. I'm lucky if I get people on the shot sometimes. That's not my goal when I jump with the camera. My goal is to jump and pretend it's not there. I try to just focus on RW and working on points. The camera is just a bonus. If I got it on video cool. If not, oh well. It was just this one time where iron cross tracker asked me to tape his beautiful track. I'll never do that again. QuoteHowever, I carried out my part of the plan and stayed in place and pulled in place. YOU made a BAD PLAN from the get-go under these circumstances! Then (to me) you failed to appropriately react to a clearly FAILED (I'll submit DOOMED) plan too, which if (as it seems by your posting demeanor) you were supposedly the most experienced on this jump too. THAT, makes this mostly YOUR responsibility to handle (or at least have the abilities to handle) and deal with don't you also think? Yes Grant. I said it over and over again. I will not do that any longer. I will stick to my original plan and track away from the group, be mindful of their whereabouts before I dump. I'm always a defensive skydiver. It was this one time where I decided to be stupid. Thank goodness I didn't have to pay with my life. I'm usually the one lecturing people about this. I guess I look like a hipocrite now. QuoteAs far as your base point though about realizing whether this deployment between you was really CLOSE or not... Sure as heck WAS!! And gives me a "pucker-factor" for sure every time I look at it! Shoot, it still makes my bung hole pucker because I can shit a brick just looking at it and reliving it. QuoteHopefully I haven't "lost you" with my points and observations. Like I say ...just as you relative to him... I *REALLY* don't mean to be a prick, but if the points can help, I feel I've at least got to try (to help ...not be a prick that is )! It is a tad bit long winded but nonetheless, it's helpful and appreciated. You're still a cool prick in my book. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #46 April 28, 2005 QuoteActually, I don't see open air. IMO you don't even have adequate separation from the guy you were filming. Again, this is my opinion. You weren't in his face, but you really weren't too far away from him either. It's hard to base on video and without measuring tape. However, in my opinion he was far enough not to cause danger to me. Maybe he wasn't far as others go in your group but don't you think he was clear and far away enough from me to cause any harm? QuoteI'd say he was more above you, slightly to your left, and slightly in front of you. Not sure how he got there, but you can clearly see him in one frame of the video (I don't know how to take frame grabs, screen caps don't work on video for some reason). Your opening swings you off heading 90 degrees to the left (temporarily) and then you are facing right at him. This could be a result of poor tracking and backsliding on my part. I should ask him, if he was even tracking away. All he said was that we weren't that close. I'm going to ask him that when I see him this weekend. Stupid me for not even thinking of asking him that. He kind of smiled and shrugged it off. I'll have to get to the truth this weekend. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #47 April 28, 2005 QuoteCan you handle the truth? Can YOU? Okay now, I know I'm sounding brash towards you, and I really do wish I could find it in me to have a "better" approach, but YOU are making it just so DIFFICULT for us to do. Cannuck, who has come on here with great humility and open/giving humbleness has made I think, a very ASTUTE observation, based upon his EXPERIENCE ...in an effort to HELP YOU with this, and all you can come back with is: QuoteDude, I wasn't backsliding. Look at the video again. I stayed in place. It's clear that you are not REALLY listening here, and that's getting frustrating!! I'd be willing to lay odds on this one. Okay... Cannuck has given you from HIS perspective as a moderately-experienced videographer, how it is QUITE REASONABLE to presume you COULD HAVE BEEN backsliding. From his (the videographer's) perspective. Now I will give you from the RW flyers perspective (as I already have) what I think also supports that, and PLEASE... consider me on this one! The guy who you were filming "track", in my experience in the position shown clearly in the video, I can almost GUARANTEE YOU ...WAS NOT GOING ANYWHERE!! Guess what that means??? Yup, most likely the ONLY movement, and apparent (very little) separation between the 3 of you, came probably pretty nearly EXCLUSIVELY from YOUR BACKSLIDING!!! You seem way too dismissive, and "glib" over this. I really truly do hope that you have the ability to YOURSELF truly LEARN from this, and not continue to instead be dishonest with YOURSELF. Please think about it. Please ...and again HONESTLY re-assess and consider it. I've said my peace on this one. I don't mean to "flame", so please don't take it that way. But it is clear, I am getting at least just a bit frustrated by what I see going on here. Hope you "get it"... Blues, -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #48 April 28, 2005 QuoteThe video shows no evidence that you stayed in place. Yeah I realize that now. I forgot that I was actually looking up and definitely backsliding. You can't tell but that's just physics for you. QuoteThe body position you would have had to be in though to continue videoing the guy as he got higher above you is one that often results in backsliding - chest high, knees low. It's the classic tandem video position, and I can tell you from doing a few hundred tandem videos, that without really driving with your legs while in that position, you haul ass backwards. Without a fixed point of reference (i.e. a sitting tandem pair) you wouldn't likely even realize it though. Yeah, you're right. Well, I know that I won't be pulling in place anymore. Only unless, I'm way above the group and I have everyone below me within sight. That is, if I decide to film RW. For now, I'm sticking to just flying RW with no more money shots. QuoteYou would be suprized how many people think that they're right down the tube... I'm not surprised. I was one of them until I thought about and watched my own video again. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #49 April 28, 2005 QuoteCan you handle the truth? Can YOU? Okay now, I know I'm sounding brash towards you, and I really do wish I could find it in me to have a "better" approach, but YOU are making it just so DIFFICULT for us to do. Dude, take it easy. I was just quoting jack nicholson and trying to be funny. I'm not trying to insinuate that I'm in the clear. QuoteCannuck, who has come on here with great humility and open/giving humbleness has made I think, a very ASTUTE observation, based upon his EXPERIENCE ...in an effort to HELP YOU with this, and all you can come back with is: QuoteDude, I wasn't backsliding. Look at the video again. I stayed in place. I think you're not reading all of the posts. I already admitted to you that I was backsliding. You have to understand. I'm only one guy here. Replies are coming left and right. I reply to them in order and answer them in order. QuoteIt's clear that you are not REALLY listening here, and that's getting frustrating!! Please read my other posts before you draw this conclusion. I'd be willing to lay odds on this one. QuoteOkay... Cannuck has given you from HIS perspective as a moderately-experienced videographer, how it is QUITE REASONABLE to presume you COULD HAVE BEEN backsliding. From his (the videographer's) perspective. Now I will give you from the RW flyers perspective (as I already have) what I think also supports that, and PLEASE... consider me on this one! The guy who you were filming "track", in my experience in the position shown clearly in the video, I can almost GUARANTEE YOU ...WAS NOT GOING ANYWHERE!! Guess what that means??? I already admitted that I was backsliding to you. Please read my reply to your post, guy. QuoteYup, most likely the ONLY movement, and apparent (very little) separation between the 3 of you, came probably pretty nearly EXCLUSIVELY from YOUR BACKSLIDING!!! read my previous post to you. I admitted that I was backsliding. QuoteYou seem way too dismissive, and "glib" over this. I really truly do hope that you have the ability to YOURSELF truly LEARN from this, and not continue to instead be dishonest with YOURSELF. read my previous reply to your post. QuotePlease think about it. Please ...and again HONESTLY re-assess and consider it. read my previous reply to your post. QuoteI've said my peace on this one. I don't mean to "flame", so please don't take it that way. But it is clear, I am getting at least just a bit frustrated by what I see going on here. Thanks Grant. No heat taken here. Thanks for your consideration and input. However, please read my replies to your posts first. Blue skies! What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #50 April 28, 2005 QuoteI think you're not reading all of the posts. Actually, I think we're pretty much just posting back-n-forth nearly SIMULTANEOUSLY "at" each other! By the time I clear my reply screen, either somebody else has already "gotten to you", or you've replied with the answer. ...My bad. That's the problem with thinking these things are a linear "conversation" sometimes. Most times actually, they're NOT. ...Again, my bad. ...And it does look like you're "getting it" (albeit with a little extra "prodding" needed ), so maybe I just need to back away from the keyboard for a bit, and give my tired aging bones a rest. Hey, you've actually been one of the good ones! Trust me on that. I've kinda secretly been waiting for the quasi-threatening or "get off my back" PM's to start, but I do have to hand it to you... you've been a "good sport". Sorry to have seemed like such a "nazi". You posted here to learn. Good on you!! Hopefully you HAVE. ...and so have I! ...That there actually just MAY be some people out there who can find a way to possibly even tolerate me. No small order. So kudo's to you for doing it!! -HA! BLUE SKIES, -Grantcoitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
