pilotdave 0 #226 April 30, 2005 QuoteNo, I chose the main I jumped because it was below my risk/benefit ratio, not because I had a reserve. Sorry, but I think that's utter bullshit. I very much doubt you'd pack the same way and choose the same canopy if you were jumping without a reserve. I think I remember you saying you had 6 reserve rides on the same canopy. Had you survived the first one without a reserve, would you have jumped that same canopy again? After the second? After the third? I don't doubt you pack carefully and don't plan to use your reserve, but by your definition you depend on it. Kallend depends on his AAD for 10-way the same way you depend on your reserve. You've done intentional cutaways... have you packed the first "reserve?" Did you pack it the same exact way, spending the same amount of time, as you pack a regular reserve? Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #227 April 30, 2005 Quotedeliberately jumping without an AAD on a skydive with higher than normal collision risk is not an indicator of safety, it is an indicator of poor judgment, Well said. We still participated in those same types of higher than typical risk dives 13 years ago. Now we deliberately choose not to do that anymore. For those newer jumpers that are 'dependant', I contend that they would also have made the same jumps if they were jumping back then. edit: If that makes us dependant, then so be it.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #228 April 30, 2005 QuoteYour argument is getting really silly, Hooknswoop. Calling someone that wants to use a proven safety device on a "high risk" jump LESS safe than someone who doesn't care if they use it or not, is absolutely ridiculous. Are you a licensed psychologist? If not, then stop trying to analyze other peoples' motives for their jumping decisions. You can only change yourself. As has been said already, deliberately jumping without an AAD on a skydive with higher than normal collision risk is not an indicator of safety, it is an indicator of poor judgment, and poor judgment makes for an unsafe situation in any branch of aviation. You misunderstand what I am saying. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #229 April 30, 2005 QuoteYou've done intentional cutaways... have you packed the first "reserve?" Did you pack it the same exact way, spending the same amount of time, as you pack a regular reserve? Yes, and you haven't answered my questions. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #230 April 30, 2005 Quotedeliberately jumping without an AAD on a skydive with higher than normal collision risk is not an indicator of safety, it is an indicator of poor judgment, -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well said. And I haven't disagreed with that. I'll say it again. Going on a riskier skydive BECAUSE you have an AAD means you are relying on it and it is no longer a back up. I don't see the difference between driving a car faster because you have an airbag and going on riskier skydives because you have an AAD. Can anyone explain the difference? Does anyone think it is OK to not treat an AAD as strictly a back up? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #231 April 30, 2005 http://www.tub.net/safetytips.htm "Remember – GFCIs are a “back-up” safety device Consumers should consider the GFCI as a back-up safety device, not a replacement for common sense and prudent behavior whenever using electrical products. Wherever water and electricity are present, consumer need heightened awareness and should follow the safety instructions that came with the appliance." Do I need to explain the analogy? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
penniless 0 #232 April 30, 2005 QuoteQuotedeliberately jumping without an AAD on a skydive with higher than normal collision risk is not an indicator of safety, it is an indicator of poor judgment, -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well said. And I haven't disagreed with that. I'll say it again. Going on a riskier skydive BECAUSE you have an AAD means you are relying on it and it is no longer a back up. I don't see the difference between driving a car faster because you have an airbag and going on riskier skydives because you have an AAD. Can anyone explain the difference? Does anyone think it is OK to not treat an AAD as strictly a back up? Derek You have no objective evidence of any kind to support your position. It is based entirely on what you as an amateur psychologist think someone else is thinking. The hard evidence comes from the fatality statistics that show without any doubt that AAD use makes skydiving safer, regardless of what decision making process anyone utilizes, and whether or not you like it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #233 April 30, 2005 QuoteYes, and you haven't answered my questions. Not sure what questions. Anyway, you had 5 reserve rides on one canopy and continued to jump that canopy. You would have made the same decision if you had no reserve? Be realistic. You're as device dependent as anyone in this sport and as long as you accept the risk you're taking, THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH IT because we have no choice but to be device dependent! There's something wrong with taking stupid risks. You could hurt someone else. There isn't anything wrong with taking whatever risks you're comfortable with. Which is more dangerous, kallend doing 10 way with an AAD because he is totally AAD dependent and it really is beyond his risk threshold or kallend doing 10 way with an AAD because it's simply a backup but he'd do it without one too. THEY ARE NO DIFFERENT! His skill is the same either way, his probabilty of a collision is the same. The chance that he'll hurt someone else is the same. EITHER WAY he would be safer not doing 10-way. That is a fact. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #234 April 30, 2005 QuoteGoing on a riskier skydive BECAUSE you have an AAD means you are relying on it and it is no longer a back up. I think it is the BECAUSE part that causes the trouble. I don't believe that people participate in a more than risky jump BECAUSE of their Cypres. I just think that when someone says, "that's what I got a Cypres for", they still would have done the same jump 13 years ago. Now they know they are a little safer doing a risky thing that they would have done anyway without the safety enhancement. All that matters is if they would have done the jump 13 years ago. If they choose to make sure in 2005 that they always have that enhancement, that is not a bad thing. That's about all I got to say about that.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #235 April 30, 2005 QuoteI don't believe that people participate in a more than risky jump BECAUSE of their Cypres. Really? "I won't do freefly jumps with newbies that are learning to freefly until i get my cypres back. The chances of jumping with someone that isn't yet stable just isn't worth it to me." "Once upon a time I did a bunch of 10-way speed jumps without a CYPRES, using a borrowed rig (since mine was not available). I have since decided that was pretty stupid, given the nature of 10-way speed, and now I won't do it without a CYPRES. " There's two that both and there are a lot more. It is the "BECAUSE" that people are missing and misunderstanding. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #236 April 30, 2005 QuoteNot sure what questions. Would you think someone with 10 jumps doing a 300-way is wise because they are jumping with an AAD? How come I can’t find anyone that will drive two identical cars, one with airbags and one without any differently, but I can find people that will make a riskier jump because they have an AAD? What is the difference? If someone says that a 100-way has more risk than benefit for them,but goes on a 100-way because they have an AAD, doesn't that defeat the concept of a back-up device? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
penniless 0 #237 April 30, 2005 QuoteQuoteNot sure what questions. Would you think someone with 10 jumps doing a 300-way is wise because they are jumping with an AAD? How come I can’t find anyone that will drive two identical cars, one with airbags and one without any differently, but I can find people that will make a riskier jump because they have an AAD? What is the difference? If someone says that a 100-way has more risk than benefit for them,but goes on a 100-way because they have an AAD, doesn't that defeat the concept of a back-up device? Derek All the people I know who've been on 100+ ways (and that includes me) have been on them because they were invited. I don't know anyone that got on one because she had a AAD. Your argument is a strawman, and it is stupid and dangerous because it encourages poor judgment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #238 April 30, 2005 Quote"I won't do freefly jumps with newbies that are learning to freefly until i get my cypres back. The chances of jumping with someone that isn't yet stable just isn't worth it to me." I can understand wanting the safety enhancement on the more risky jumps. But 13 years ago, I contend they would have done the jumps. So all it means is that they recognize when we are subjecting ourselves to greater risk. If that means we are device dependant to you, I OK with that label.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #239 April 30, 2005 QuoteQuoteNot sure what questions. Would you think someone with 10 jumps doing a 300-way is wise because they are jumping with an AAD? Course not. That would be stupid. That person could kill someone because he doesn't have the skill be be on that jump. Whether he's ok with that level of risk is irrelevant.Quote How come I can’t find anyone that will drive two identical cars, one with airbags and one without any differently, but I can find people that will make a riskier jump because they have an AAD? What is the difference? I'm sure you could. There are tons of dumbasses in the world. Maybe ask on another website. How many nascar drivers will go without seatbelts around town but would never drive a nascar race without a seatbelt? I bet there are plenty.Quote If someone says that a 100-way has more risk than benefit for them,but goes on a 100-way because they have an AAD, doesn't that defeat the concept of a back-up device? No. The concept of the AAD is to save somebody's life if he doesn't pull for any reason. Here's the problem with your argument: AADs exist and are easily available. When someone says "I won't do a 100 way without an AAD," assuming they have enough skill to be on a 100-way, they are saying "as long as AADs are easily available, i have no reason to jump on a 100-way without one." As long as AADs are easily available, it isn't a smart choice to jump without one on a jump where it has a significant benefit. History shows that big way RW jumps, freefly coaching with newbies, AFF instruction, etc are jumps where an AAD has a significant benefit because of their increased risk of collisions. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #240 May 1, 2005 Quote How come I can’t find anyone that will drive two identical cars, one with airbags and one without any differently, When did you look, Derek? The record on ABS is very clear - people use them to tailgate closer. Driving tendencies with SUVs also shows a reduced fear. I wouldn't expect it to be any different with airbags. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #241 May 1, 2005 QuoteWhen did you look, Derek? Here on DZ.com. If we agree that driving riskier because you have an airbag is silly, then why isn't doing riskier skydives because you have an AAD silly? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #242 May 1, 2005 QuoteQuoteWhen did you look, Derek? Here on DZ.com. If we agree that driving riskier because you have an airbag is silly, then why isn't doing riskier skydives because you have an AAD silly? Derek Using an AAD on skydives with a high collision risk is NOT doing riskier skydives BECAUSE you have an AAD. Seriously flawed logic.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #243 May 2, 2005 QuoteAs has been said already, deliberately jumping without an AAD on a skydive with higher than normal collision risk is not an indicator of safety, it is an indicator of poor judgment, and poor judgment makes for an unsafe situation in any branch of aviation. And going on a skydive with a higher than normal collision risk just because you have an AAD is also a sign of poor judgement."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #244 May 2, 2005 QuoteQuoteAs has been said already, deliberately jumping without an AAD on a skydive with higher than normal collision risk is not an indicator of safety, it is an indicator of poor judgment, and poor judgment makes for an unsafe situation in any branch of aviation. And going on a skydive with a higher than normal collision risk just because you have an AAD is also a sign of poor judgement. www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1621640#1621640... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #245 May 2, 2005 http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1622462#1622462"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #246 May 2, 2005 QuoteAnd going on a skydive with a higher than normal collision risk just because you have an AAD is also a sign of poor judgement. 100% agree. The problem is, choosing to use an AAD on a jump with a higher than normal collision risk is simply not an indication that the person is going on that jump BECAUSE they have an AAD. Kallend won't do 10-way without an AAD. That isn't to say he WILL do it BECAUSE he has an AAD, it simply means he chooses to use an AAD when he does 10-way. Reversing that is not logical. Not saying it can never happen. Some people will do jumps beyond their skill level BECAUSE of an AAD. But choosing to use an AAD on jumps with a higher than normal risk of collision is a smart decision, assuming the jumper has the skill to participate on that jump. AADs don't change the odds of a collision. Nobody uses an AAD to change the odds of a collision. They accept the risk of a collision and use the AAD as a backup in case it happens. Does the fact that you have a reserve ever come into consideration when you choose what main you'll jump and how you pack it Ron? Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #247 May 2, 2005 Quote100% agree. The problem is, choosing to use an AAD on a jump with a higher than normal collision risk is simply not an indication that the person is going on that jump BECAUSE they have an AAD. Uh, yes it is. If I will not do a 100way without an AAD. But will do it with one. Then the only thing that is different is the AAD. And therefore it IS proof that I am only doing the 100 due to having an AAD. Now if I PREFER to have an AAD, but would do the jump anyway then you would be correct. But if I make the AAD mandatory it is infact an indication that I am only going on that jump becasue of the AAD. QuoteKallend won't do 10-way without an AAD. That isn't to say he WILL do it BECAUSE he has an AAD, it simply means he chooses to use an AAD when he does 10-way If he would not do 10 way with out the AAD, but will do it with one...It is a FACT that it is the AAD that makes the 10way possible for him. QuoteAADs don't change the odds of a collision Exactly....So an AAD will not reduce the chances of ana accident, only it *might* increase the chances that you will survive. The safest thing to do is to avoid the Accident in the first place. QuoteDoes the fact that you have a reserve ever come into consideration when you choose what main you'll jump and how you pack it Ron? No, if I thought my main was malfunction prone, I would not jump it. I know several others that have zero mals with the same main. If I thought my packing was sub-par I would work on it....Which BTW I DO think my packing needs work, and have been working on it....Ironicly, this lead to my last mal. I also don't do skydives that I think the risk of collision is so high that I feel the need for an AAD."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #248 May 2, 2005 All crows are black does not mean the same as all black birds are crows.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #249 May 2, 2005 QuoteAll crows are black does not mean the same as all black birds are crows. True. But "I'll not do that kind of jump without an AAD" does mean you are depending on it."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #250 May 2, 2005 So you've had a cutaway? Did you continue to jump that same canopy afterward? Would you have if you didn't have a reserve? You do CRW? Will you do CRW without carrying a hook knife? Are you hook knife dependent? Would you do CRW without a reserve (assuming it was legal)? Do you think it's smarter to do 10-way with or without an AAD? Would you do it without one? I might be wrong but I bet you think it's smarter to do it with an AAD but it's even smarter not to do it at all. And I bet you'd do 10-way without an AAD. Now if I'm right, why would you do it without an AAD if you know it's smarter to do it with one? That's intelligent, or is it just macho? If I'm completely wrong, please inform me. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites