AAD's & Personal Acceptable Risk Thresholds

[pilotdave 0]

I've read the whole thread. Don't have a chip on my shoulder. I'm not even someone that won't jump without an AAD. And I'm not a very argumentative person. I just don't understand your argument.

If I'm misreading what you're saying, please correct me. But here's the gist as far as I'm understanding it.

If somebody will do a jump with an AAD that they won't do without an AAD, that jump is too dangerous for that person and they should not do it.

There are no exceptions. Skill/experience doesn't come into play. It's only about willingness to jump without an AAD.

Dave

[Ron 10]

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If I'm misreading what you're saying, please correct me. But here's the gist as far as I'm understanding it.

If somebody will do a jump with an AAD that they won't do without an AAD, that jump is too dangerous for that person and they should not do it.

If you had stopped there...You would have been close.

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There are no exceptions. Skill/experience doesn't come into play.

Its about RISK MANAGMENT. You think that just adding an AAD makes you safe and smart.

Thats a fix for the symptom, not the disease. The first step is avoiding the dangerous situation.

The safe skydiver avoids skydives where they need the AAD. Not just adding one and calling themself safe.

AAD's are good things. Depending on them is not.

Using them to go on more dangerous jumps since they make you feel safe is not.

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It's only about willingness to jump without an AAD.

This is where you are wrong. It is not something I have ever said.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Group 1: Going to make a skydive. We ask ourselves," Are capable of the jump? Are we qualified? Are we within our acceptable risk level? THEN we decide to jump with a cypres because WE(and this is just our opinion) feel that it is an intelligent thing to have on our rigs.

Group 2: Think that ALL of the people in group one come to THAT conclusion differently. When group one says they won't do AFF, freefly, or a 400 way without a cypres, group 2 thinks that they rationalize the "added risks" because they have a cypres.

Group 3 (which includes me): Think that SOME of the people in group one come to THAT conclusion differently.

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I think we ALL agree this is a bad ideal. BUT once again, not ALL skydivers are deciding to do a more risky skydive just because we have a cypres.

Too many are and don't even realize it. It takes first understanding the difference, which cleary isn't easy for everyone and second an honset self evauluation.

We have one person that posted that coach freefly jumps are not worth it because of the risk of collision, but will do them with an AAD. If that isn't EXACTLY the same as saying, "I won't drive on the freeway because it is too risky for me, but I'll drive on the freeway if I have an airbag.", I don't know what is. They are more jumpers that do exactly the same thing.

Derek

[pilotdave 0]

Ok, lemme keep trying to understand.

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The safe skydiver avoids skydives where they need the AAD. Not just adding one and calling themself safe.

BECAUSE kallend won't do 10-way without an AAD but continues to do 10-way, he is not a safe skydiver?

Dave

[pilotdave 0]

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"I won't drive on the freeway because it is too risky for me, but I'll drive on the freeway if I have an airbag."

Finally a quote I like. Here's the question. What about driving on the freeway is too risky for that person? If this person has the skill to drive on the freeway safely (ie has done it before safely, with or without an airbag), I see no problem with that. The fact is freeway speeds are higher than on city streets. Airbags may be more important in a crash. I mean, I don't want to get into a discussion of airbags, but assume they do offer protection over just a seatbelt at freeway speeds. What's wrong with making that choice? The person can drive on the freeway absolutely as safely as anyone else. He/she just chooses to only do so if the car is equipped with safety equipment that may protect them in the event of an accident.

The person isn't doing anything reckless. Not trying to go have an accident or attempting to narrowly avoid an accident. The person is just driving well within their skill level.

They could just as easily say "i wont drive on the freeway in any car that doesn't have a radio." It doesn't affect anyone else. When their radio dies, they stay home till its fixed. So what? It's his/her choice.

Dave

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Finally a quote I like. Here's the question. What about driving on the freeway is too risky for that person?

Too high of a chance of a collision with one or more other vehicles. Not worth it to them to drive that fast.

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What's wrong with making that choice?

Because an airbag shouldn't allow them to drive faster than they think is safe for them.

Derek

[kelpdiver 2]

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Because an airbag shouldn't allow them to drive faster than they think is safe for them.

Perhaps they merely accept the fact that at freeway speeds, seat belts may not be sufficient protection in the case of a collision.

If you are supremely confident in your ability to drive on the freeway, you don't even need the silly seatbelts, right? Better to be thrown clear, anyway! Sheesh - like the cypres it is a lot gained for virtually no inconvenience.

[dorbie 0]

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If that isn't EXACTLY the same as saying, "I won't drive on the freeway because it is too risky for me, but I'll drive on the freeway if I have an airbag.", I don't know what is.

No it's more like my motorcyclist analogy.

Still no answer on my motorcycle question?

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Is a motorcyclist who won't ride a bike without a helmet but will drive a car without one exercising good judgement?

No, the vehicles are very different. A better analogy is does the motorcyclist that drives fast w/ a helmet, but within their risk/benefit maximum witha helmet.

I don't think a helmet is comparable to an AAD since it is a lot less likely to fail to operate than an AAD.

Derek

[kallend 2,148]

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Is a motorcyclist who won't ride a bike without a helmet but will drive a car without one exercising good judgement?

No, the vehicles are very different. A better analogy is does the motorcyclist that drives fast w/ a helmet, but within their risk/benefit maximum witha helmet.

I don't think a helmet is comparable to an AAD since it is a lot less likely to fail to operate than an AAD.

Derek

Anyone else's personal risk evaluation is none of your business. Stop trying to be an amateur psychologist, you are not qualified.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Anyone else's personal risk evaluation is none of your business.

I didn't ask for your risk tolerance, you volunteered it.

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I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night though

It is a normal reaction to not want to admit to yourself or anyone else that you are dependant on your AAD. I am not asking for anyone’s risk tolerance, just suggesting they think about it and if an AAD should affect it. Honestly thinking about how much risk you think is acceptable and how an AAD affects you decision making process is healthy.

You didn’t answer if I am correct about your opinion.

Derek

[dorbie 0]

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Is a motorcyclist who won't ride a bike without a helmet but will drive a car without one exercising good judgement?

No, the vehicles are very different. A better analogy is does the motorcyclist that drives fast w/ a helmet, but within their risk/benefit maximum witha helmet.

I don't think a helmet is comparable to an AAD since it is a lot less likely to fail to operate than an AAD.

Your attention to wheel count is admirable but hardly the point of the analogy. Just as it's understood there's an increased risk of head trauma in motorcycle accidents, it's understood that there's an increased risk of being knocked unconscious with certain skydiving disciplines. If you're an experienced coach and perceive there's that very significantly increased risk of going in with a no-pull that's your personal business. Ignoring that increased risk w.r.t. the best device to mitigate it seems foolhardy, maybe even unjustifiable.

I couldn't disagree more on the reliability of helmets w.r.t. performing their function (namely saving your brain in an accident) but that's hardly the point.

My sole reason for posting this was to illustrate how futile resorting to analogies about red light runners are and offer a compelling counterpoint. I'll leave you to figure out the merits of air bags vs helmets vs AADs.

[divnswoop 0]

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Group 3 (which includes me): Think that SOME of the people in group one come to THAT conclusion differently.

Yeah, I didn't include your viewpoint because I "think" we are on the same page. My issue is with the other people who blanket the community with statements like,

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If you will only do a certain jump with an AAD, then you are more dangerous/should look at whether you should be jumping or not.

I understand the arguement AND agree with it to a point. I tried to get ron to admit that,"Not ALL skydivers fall into this." and that,"there are people who are qualified, able, and within their acceptable risk level, but still chose to only jump with an AAD because they view it as an intelligent thing to do." But he chose not to comment.http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1624023#1624023

[jumper03 0]

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Anyone else's personal risk evaluation is none of your business.

I have to disagree with you here.

Lets say you do that 10-way with an aad that you wouldn't do without. You're taking on a dive that you wouldn't feel safe on w/o that aad - what have you done to the other 9 peoples risk level? The heart of the question is WHY will you not do the 10 way w/o the aad? Are you not trained for it? Have the experience? (I know you are more than capable- just hypothetical here...) If you don't have the experience or confidence and it is the aad that ups your safety level such that you will do that jump - you're endangering other jumpers now.

So I would say yes, your personal risk evaluation is everyones business as is everyone elses yours.

We're not alone in the sky - unless you want to do solo's then do what ever the heck you want.

Scars remind us that the past is real

[Ron 10]

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I understand the arguement AND agree with it to a point. I tried to get ron to admit that,"Not ALL skydivers fall into this." and that,"there are people who are qualified, able, and within their acceptable risk level, but still chose to only jump with an AAD because they view it as an intelligent thing to do." But he chose not to comment.

Sorry I took "final comment" as not needing a response.

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Yeah, one I completely agree with!!! other than add to the final comment:
"There are skydivers out there who are capable and within their limits, but still choose not to do certain jumps if they don't have a cypres....and that's ok."

I have NO problem with jumpers that ADD an AAD as a back up and use their brains as the primary safety device...My whole issue has been the ones that use an AAD as a "permission slip" to do more dangerous stuff.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 2,148]

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Anyone else's personal risk evaluation is none of your business.

I have to disagree with you here.

Lets say you do that 10-way with an aad that you wouldn't do without. You're taking on a dive that you wouldn't feel safe on w/o that aad - what have you done to the other 9 peoples risk level? The heart of the question is WHY will you not do the 10 way w/o the aad? Are you not trained for it? Have the experience? (I know you are more than capable- just hypothetical here...) If you don't have the experience or confidence and it is the aad that ups your safety level such that you will do that jump - you're endangering other jumpers now.

So I would say yes, your personal risk evaluation is everyones business as is everyone elses yours.

We're not alone in the sky - unless you want to do solo's then do what ever the heck you want.

Do you actually know anything about 10-way Speed to USPA rules? Have you done it competitively?

The rest of my team had no issues jumping with me. They all had AADs too.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[jumper03 0]

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Do you actually know anything about 10-way Speed to USPA rules? Have you done it competitively?

The rest of my team had no issues jumping with me. They all had AADs too.

Based on your reply, I think the point I was trying to make just went whoosh. Time to back away from the key board. later.

Scars remind us that the past is real

[kallend 2,148]

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I understand the arguement AND agree with it to a point. I tried to get ron to admit that,"Not ALL skydivers fall into this." and that,"there are people who are qualified, able, and within their acceptable risk level, but still chose to only jump with an AAD because they view it as an intelligent thing to do." But he chose not to comment.

Sorry I took "final comment" as not needing a response.

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Yeah, one I completely agree with!!! other than add to the final comment:
"There are skydivers out there who are capable and within their limits, but still choose not to do certain jumps if they don't have a cypres....and that's ok."

I have NO problem with jumpers that ADD an AAD as a back up and use their brains as the primary safety device...My whole issue has been the ones that use an AAD as a "permission slip" to do more dangerous stuff.

The increased risk of collision in competition 10-way, 100+ ways, AFF instructing, freefly coaching etc. is there whether or not anyone uses an AAD. Not using a readily available safety device of proven value does not indicate good judgment. Encouraging, even indirectly, someone to prove they can do it without an AAD, is irresponsible.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[pilotdave 0]

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Do you actually know anything about 10-way Speed to USPA rules? Have you done it competitively?

That's irrelevant. The point was that if you don't have the skill to safely do 10-way and you choose to do it anyway, that is the business of the rest of your team. You don't fall in that category. I agree with your comment above. When your skill is not in question, how much risk you choose to take on any skydive is only your business. Your AAD dependence (or lack thereof) has no effect on your 10-way team. You can do 10-way absolutely as safe as someone that would do it without an AAD, but you choose to not accept the added risk associated with a collision when an AAD is not present.

With an AAD, the probability of a collision is not reduced. What is reduced is the severity of the collision, at least in some cases.

Would you do 10-way without a helmet?

Dave

[kallend 2,148]

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Would you do 10-way without a helmet?

Dave

No. I know some people that wear soccer pads on their left legs and arms too.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Not using a readily available safety device of proven value does not indicate good judgment.

And using a safety device to exceed a person's risk/benefit limit or to compensate for lack of ability or other's lack of ability is also poor judgement.

Derek

[pilotdave 0]

You're so freaking device dependent! You should be ashamed.

So why wear a helmet? Is it to protect your head in case of a collision? Why wear an AAD? As a second level of backup in case the helmet doesn't adequately protect your head? Or do you just blindly believe the AAD will protect you so therefore you don't have to be careful?

Dave

[pilotdave 0]

Define risk. Really... when you say risk, what do you mean?

Dave

[kallend 2,148]

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Not using a readily available safety device of proven value does not indicate good judgment.

And using a safety device to exceed a person's risk/benefit limit or to compensate for lack of ability or other's lack of ability is also poor judgement.

Derek

I don't encourage that. You encourage people to prove they can do risky jumps without a proven safety device.

Some people say all skydiving is an indication of poor judgment.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[pilotdave 0]

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You encourage people to prove they can do risky jumps without a proven safety device.

NO HE DOESN'T! This is where I get confused. He (and Ron) says if you won't do a skydive without an AAD, don't do it at all. If you won't do any skydive without an AAD, don't do any skydive. But don't jump without an AAD. And you don't have to be willing to jump without an AAD. It's just that if you won't, you shouldn't jump. See they're different. I guess...

Dave