Would you jump without your AAD

[livendive 8]

It would be tough to skydive without my head attached... or at least to skydive with anything resembling proficiency!

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[livendive 8]

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Regardless of your skill, some jumps pose a greater risk for an accident than others. If you use an AAD to mitigate the risk of that accident being fatal, you're not device dependent, you're intelligent.

I don't have an AAD. I don't go on freefly jumps that I expect might get kinda zoo. Who's being more intelligent/exercising better judgement, the people who have AADs and go on those jumps or the people like me who choose to sit them out?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[kelpdiver 2]

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I don't have an AAD. I don't go on freefly jumps that I expect might get kinda zoo. Who's being more intelligent/exercising better judgement, the people who have AADs and go on those jumps or the people like me who choose to sit them out?

That's a risk/reward decision. Or a reflection of your perceived skill of the participants. I don't know enough here to say which. So it's your call.

I relearned packing this weekend (thanks, damien) - hadn't jumped my own packjob since last August when I was still renting gear. And you can bet I was sure to set my cypes. I've yet to deal with any sort of malfunction, so I'm going to stack the odds as far as possible. I also opened a bit higher, partly to play with the canopy, but to give more time to deal with anything that may arise.

So....is jumping one's first packjob too dangerous a jump to do? You have to do it at some point, just like the first AFF, the first unstable exit, etc. This again is a jump with an unknown increased risk. There's no way to quantify that it's 11% or 145% more risky then jumping a rig done by the packers. So in the face of such uncertainty, you mitigate where possible.

[pilotdave 0]

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So if you consider jumping on a 10 way speed jump to dangerous without an AAD, then maybe you should not do them even with one.

Why can't it be "the risk of a collision is high so therefore i'd only do it with an extra backup?"

I just don't get this argument. He's good enough to do 10-way safely. He's unlikely to hurt himself or anyone else doing it. He's proven that. His safety and the safety of the others he jumps with is not affected in any way by his philosophy on cypres usage. I've yet to see any REAL reason why he should stop doing 10-way. You might say that he should sit down and really think about the risks he's taking. But those are his risks to take and they don't affect anyone else and they are no different than anyone of his skill level/experience doing the same types of jumps.

I understand how a cypres can lead someone to go on jumps that they don't have the skill to do safely. That affects others. Those people are a danger to themselves and others on their jumps. Accidents affect all of us. I would understand an argument for a wingloading BSR or something which prevents people from being stupid about canopy choice to help prevent fatalities.

But kallend doing 10-way has no effect on the rest of us. If 10-way was just too dangerous in your mind, I'd have no problem with you saying we should all stop doing 10-way. But your argument that kallend should stop because he uses a cypres simply makes zero sense to me. Sure, he'd be safer if he stopped. That's not in question. You'd be safer if you stopped jumping too.

Compare someone with 100 jumps who'll go do 10-way without an AAD to kallend. You aren't telling the guy with 100 jumps not to do 10-way. You're not telling him it might be too dangerous for him. You're telling him that if he's ok with the risk, that makes it acceptable. While on the other hand, you're telling kallend, who has plenty of skill and experience to be doing 10 way that it's too dangerous for him because he chooses to use an AAD. Simply makes no sense to me.

If an AAD has benefit, why should anyone be willing to jump without one?

Dave

[kallend 2,114]

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Regardless of your skill, some jumps pose a greater risk for an accident than others. If you use an AAD to mitigate the risk of that accident being fatal, you're not device dependent, you're intelligent.

I don't have an AAD. I don't go on freefly jumps that I expect might get kinda zoo. Who's being more intelligent/exercising better judgement, the people who have AADs and go on those jumps or the people like me who choose to sit them out?

Blues,
Dave

No-one is telling you what risks you should accept and what you should reject. That's your business, and yours alone.

If someone chooses to accept the hightened risk of a collision on a freefly coaching jump, why criticize them for choosing to mitigate that risk with an AAD, while not criticizing someone who chooses not to use an AAD? THAT is what makes no sense at all.

The risks I am prepared to take, and how I mitigate them, are my business, and not Ron's or Derek's.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[livendive 8]

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No-one is telling you what risks you should accept and what you should reject. That's your business, and yours alone.

If someone chooses to accept the hightened risk of a collision on a freefly coaching jump, why criticize them for choosing to mitigate that risk with an AAD, while not criticizing someone who chooses not to use an AAD? THAT is what makes no sense at all.

You seem to be countering an argument that I haven't made. I have not criticized anyone for wearing an AAD. I have gotten the impression in my quick dabble into these threads today that people are saying folks who choose to jump without an AAD are exercising poorer judgement than those who choose to jump with them. My example about the kinds of loads I don't go on was merely offered up as a counterpoint to that. A person who doesn't go on a jump that they perceive as having an unacceptably high risk of collision is being a safer skydiver than someone who chooses to go on such jumps provided they have a back-up device.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Ron 10]

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Why can't it be "the risk of a collision is high so therefore i'd only do it with an extra backup?"

If the risk is so high that you will only do it with a back up....Why do it at all? You have said that an AAD does not reduce the risk of an accident.

Would not the smartest course of action to be to avoid the dangerous jump in the first place?

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I just don't get this argument

It is really simple. If you feel the dive is so dangerous that you NEED a backup....Then why do the dive at all? If you do the dive only becasue you have the backup, you are in fact depending on the device to make the jump safe enough to do for you.

If the risk is that high....why do the jump at all?

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I understand how a cypres can lead someone to go on jumps that they don't have the skill to do safely. That affects others. Those people are a danger to themselves and others on their jumps. Accidents affect all of us.

And how would you be able to tell who from whom?

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Compare someone with 100 jumps who'll go do 10-way without an AAD to kallend. You aren't telling the guy with 100 jumps not to do 10-way. You're not telling him it might be too dangerous for him

Yep it might be too dangerous for him....And if Kallend is not willing to accept the risk of 10 way without the AAD...It just might be too dangerous for him as well.

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If an AAD has benefit, why should anyone be willing to jump without one?

This is the third time I have asked this...Show me once where I said that.

I have said don't go on skydives with an AAD that you think would be too dangerous without one.

Seriously, you are missing the point and assuming I said shit I never said.....Find it....

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[pilotdave 0]

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If an AAD has benefit, why should anyone be willing to jump without one?

This is the third time I have asked this...Show me once where I said that.

I have said don't go on skydives with an AAD that you think would be too dangerous without one.

Seriously, you are missing the point and assuming I said shit I never said.....Find it....

You have told kallend over and over that he should not do 10-way if he isnt willing to do it without an aad. I am asking why he should be willing to do it without an aad. I see no argument at all for why anyone is better off without an aad. But still he should be willing to do it.

If my prediction is right, you'll say that you never said he should be willing, only that if he isn't, he shouldnt do 10-way. I'm speaking hypothetically. Why should anyone be willing to do 10-way with no aad? What is the benefit in not having one? We know the downside...

Dave

[divnswoop 0]

Dave....your wasting your time.

[pilotdave 0]

I live a sad existance... I have nothing better to do.

Dave

[Ron 10]

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You have told kallend over and over that he should not do 10-way if he isnt willing to do it without an aad

True. But its not the same thinga s you have been claiming

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I am asking why he should be willing to do it without an aad.

Then that dive is not above his level of risk tolerance....He instead chooses to increase the risk of the dive just because he has an AAD. Its kinda like drinking and driving because you have airbags.

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If my prediction is right, you'll say that you never said he should be willing, only that if he isn't, he shouldnt do 10-way. I'm speaking hypothetically. Why should anyone be willing to do 10-way with no aad? What is the benefit in not having one? We know the downside...

The benefit to not having one? Can't see it. However I CAN see the benefit of choosing your dives for saftey and not allowing an AAD to increase your risk level.

You it seems are fine with doing risker jumps and depening on the AAD to make it safe enough to do.

So ask yourself this who is safer?

The guy that thinks 10way speed is too dangerous without an AAD but will do 10 way speed only if he has an AAD.

The guy that thinks 10way speed is to dangerous without an AAD so he will not do 10 way speed, but does wear an AAD on dives he feels is safe without it.

One person is using it as a back up...the other is using it to allow him to do more dangerous things.

One has a back up, the other a dependance.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[pilotdave 0]

Yes I totally agree that the guy that doesn't skydive is safer!!! I've said that over and over and over!

Who is safer:

The guy that will only do 10-way with an AAD, or the guy that will do 10-way with or without an AAD, all else being equal.

THAT IS THE EXAMPLE I AM QUESTIONING BECAUSE WE AGREE ON YOUR EXAMPLE!

The answer is THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE! One is not safer than the other. But that day when the second guy finds his AAD is shut off on jump run and does his 10-way anyway, he is LESS SAFE because he no longer has a backup. That is perfectly fine. He accepts that risk. I have no problem with that. Turn it around...the other guy finds his AAD off on jump run. He rides the plane down (or does another jump that he feels is safer). He has turned into your example! He sits out a jump he feels has a high collision risk.

Dave

[Ron 10]

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The answer is THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE!

OK I don't see your bitching then.

If you can admit:
1. Some people rely on AAD's to get on jumps that are above their acceptance level.

2. These people are not "safer" since they are on jumps.

3. A jumper should never use an AAD to allow them to do more dangerous things...

Then you have bitched for no reason other than to bitch.

You have said time after time things you made up in your head as comming from someone else.

If you actually read the damn thread you would see no ONCE did I say you sould jump without an AAD.

I have said TIME AFTER TIME (that you ignored over and over) that if you think the damn jump is too dangerous without an AAD, then you should not go on it withone.

Not ONCE have I said any of the crap you claimed I said.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[divnswoop 0]

OK I don't see your bitching then.

If you can admit:
1. Some people rely on AAD's to get on jumps that are above their acceptance level.

2. These people are not "safer" since they are on jumps.

3. A jumper should never use an AAD to allow them to do more dangerous things...

Then you have bitched for no reason other than to bitch.

You have said time after time things you made up in your head as comming from someone else.

If you actually read the damn thread you would see no ONCE did I say you sould jump without an AAD.

I have said TIME AFTER TIME (that you ignored over and over) that if you think the damn jump is too dangerous without an AAD, then you should not go on it withone.

[kelpdiver 2]

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I am asking why he should be willing to do it without an aad.

Then that dive is not above his level of risk tolerance....He instead chooses to increase the risk of the dive just because he has an AAD. Its kinda like drinking and driving because you have airbags.

First off, he doesn't increase the risk. The risk of 10 way speed stays constant. Or rather, it's decreased over the past 13 years as he has gotten more experienced.

And I thought the issue was that people were substituting AADs for appropriate skill. It seems like you've bailed on that losing argument and are now complaining that people shouldn't want valid security blankets to jump.

BTW, my packjob example was actually intended to be presented to you. Comments?

[pilotdave 0]

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I have said TIME AFTER TIME (that you ignored over and over) that if you think the damn jump is too dangerous without an AAD, then you should not go on it withone.

Not ONCE have I said any of the crap you claimed I said.

I'm sorry if I've misquoted you. Point me to a post where I did... I'm not sure what you're referring to.

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if you think the damn jump is too dangerous without an AAD, then you should not go on it with one

How is that different from "If you want to skydive, you must be willing to skydive without an AAD"? To me, it's exactly the same. If I chose to not do solos without an AAD, you are saying I shouldn't do solos. Therefore, if I want to do solos, I must be willing to do them without an AAD. Is that the concept you have a problem with? You feel that I'm misrepresenting what you're saying? If I won't do ANY skydive without an AAD, skydiving is too dangerous for me so I shouldn't do it at all? Are you not saying that?

Dave

[Ron 10]

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First off, he doesn't increase the risk. The risk of 10 way speed stays constant

Not if the person is getting on big ways before he is ready, or doing more dangerous things (like diving harder) since they have one.

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And I thought the issue was that people were substituting AADs for appropriate skill

No, it has always been about people using the AAD as "pass" to do more dangerous stuff. It has been said time after time that people WILL do more dangerous stuff if they have an AAD.

True saftey would be to not do those jumps even if they have an AAD.

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It seems like you've bailed on that losing argument and are now complaining that people shouldn't want valid security blankets to jump.

Nope, never changed my stance...You just continue to misread it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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I'm sorry if I've misquoted you. Point me to a post where I did... I'm not sure what you're referring to.

How about in this very post?

I said:

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if you think the damn jump is too dangerous without an AAD, then you should not go on it with one

You read it and repeated it as:

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"If you want to skydive, you must be willing to skydive without an AAD"

NEVER did I say that...But that didn't stop you from claiming I did.

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If I won't do ANY skydive without an AAD, skydiving is too dangerous for me so I shouldn't do it at all?

If you feel any skydive is too dangerous without an AAD, then you need to rethink your doing this sport.

Cause if you will only jump with an AAD, thats like only driving in car that has airbags, only because you are afraid to drive in a car without them.

Im done here...You either just can't get it and three different people trying several different ways just can't get it to you in a way that you can grasp, or are just doing this to argue.

I tend to think its #2.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kelpdiver 2]

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First off, he doesn't increase the risk. The risk of 10 way speed stays constant

Not if the person is getting on big ways before he is ready, or doing more dangerous things (like diving harder) since they have one.

We're talking about Kallend here, not a unnamed jumper. This is a dodge.

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No, it has always been about people using the AAD as "pass" to do more dangerous stuff. It has been said time after time that people WILL do more dangerous stuff if they have an AAD.

Said, but not proven beyond the obvious. With parachutes, not many people will jump out the open door of an airplane. Better gear and/or training allow people to do more risky endeavors. Where you've failed is to prove that this is a bad thing.

You passed again on my packjob scenario. Let's be more direct - is it intelligent for me to not turn on the cypres for my first pack job jump? By your very clear statements, my insistence on doing so suggests the jump is too dangerous for me to do.

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Nope, never changed my stance...You just continue to misread it.

Aye, something you or Derek haven't done at all!

[pilotdave 0]

Alright whatever. Reread what I wrote. I never misquoted you. I asked how my statement was different from your statement. All you did was repeat that you never said my statement.

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Cause if you will only jump with an AAD, thats like only driving in car that has airbags, only because you are afraid to drive in a car without them.

That's it again. That's your quote. "If you will only jump with an AAD..." What's the alternative to that? Why is it wrong to "only jump with an AAD?" I asked before why I might want to consider not jumping with an AAD. I see no benefit in it, and you aren't even suggesting it. But yet you keep bring up that it's somehow wrong to "only jump with an AAD."

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Im done here...You either just can't get it and three different people trying several different ways just can't get it to you in a way that you can grasp, or are just doing this to argue

Oh well, guess I'll never understand this. I think I'm just too stupid.

Dave

[kallend 2,114]

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You have told kallend over and over that he should not do 10-way if he isnt willing to do it without an aad

True. But its not the same thinga s you have been claiming

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I am asking why he should be willing to do it without an aad.

Then that dive is not above his level of risk tolerance....He instead chooses to increase the risk of the dive just because he has an AAD. Its kinda like drinking and driving because you have airbags.

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If my prediction is right, you'll say that you never said he should be willing, only that if he isn't, he shouldnt do 10-way. I'm speaking hypothetically. Why should anyone be willing to do 10-way with no aad? What is the benefit in not having one? We know the downside...

The benefit to not having one? Can't see it. However I CAN see the benefit of choosing your dives for saftey and not allowing an AAD to increase your risk level.

You it seems are fine with doing risker jumps and depening on the AAD to make it safe enough to do.

So ask yourself this who is safer?

The guy that thinks 10way speed is too dangerous without an AAD but will do 10 way speed only if he has an AAD.

The guy that thinks 10way speed is to dangerous without an AAD so he will not do 10 way speed, but does wear an AAD on dives he feels is safe without it.

One person is using it as a back up...the other is using it to allow him to do more dangerous things.

One has a back up, the other a dependance.

My risk tolerance is none of your business. Your risk tolerance is none of my business.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 3,085]

>My risk tolerance is none of your business.

By my count, you have posted your opinions on risk tolerance 65 times on this forum. Which is no problem; it's just an odd time to decide it's not anyone else's business.

[Ron 10]

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We're talking about Kallend here, not a unnamed jumper. This is a dodge.

Is every jumper like Kallend? No. We have even the good Dr. saying he depends on them.

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Said, but not proven beyond the obvious

How much more proven do you need? If they person says they will not do something without an AAD that is in fact dependance.

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Where you've failed is to prove that this is a bad thing.

People going on dives above their skill level since they have an AAD and think they will be safe is good?

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You passed again on my packjob scenario. Let's be more direct - is it intelligent for me to not turn on the cypres for my first pack job jump? By your very clear statements, my insistence on doing so suggests the jump is too dangerous for me to do.

No, by your own admission it is to dangerous for you. If you think that you will not pack well or that you must have an AADs ince you think you will fail in your emergency procedures it says TONS about how much you think the AAD will "save you" if you fail to perform.

Look have a nice day. It is clear that you depend on your AAD, and that you like it.

I see that as a saftey issue. You thinkthat buying one makes you safe.

I hope you don't drink and drive since you have airbags.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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I don't measure ANY jump and say "Well, this one is risky, but it's ok since I have an AAD."

Ah, but people do say that....

hmmmm....have never heard anyone say that, and I tend to deal with a lot of new jumpers. Maybe that comes from good instruction and leadership on the DZ? nah, that's crazy talk, right? hmmm....maybe if you start teaching that to them at the tandem level instead of hoping they drop a bad habit idea during student status. You don't need to break a bad habit if it never starts. If you have a good instructor teaching the tandems that doesn't say "you don't need to worry, we have a Cypres if anything goes wrong." I've heard that a lot in those ten minute tandem mill training classes.

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Those that love to make an argument over this whole "wanting" a cypres thing never seem to understand that difference and claim those that do are device dependent....and they, and their puppets, go on endlessly about it......

Wow...look at that....

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It's interesting watching them argue against people when they are in full agreement with them but failed to see the nuance of the words.

Again....

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I find it funny that you guys seem to be ignoring the simple fact that it IS safer to avoid jumps where you might need an AAD.

Did I ever argue against sitting on the ground when it wasn't safe to go up (weather, type of jump, whatever)? Hmmmm....let me think. Nope. Never did that. Never will.

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Instead we have some that admitting that, they use a play on words to avoid answering that question for themselves.

I have and will again jump without one. But since I can't prepare for everything, I choose to have one on most jumps I do. I've never needed or come close to needing my hook knife yet I wear one. I never had a problem with my old risers without the inserts but I went ahead and got them anyway, then I had a spinner mal. Up until my mal I never needed my reserve but I always had one with me just in case. Up until I took a helmet to my head I never needed my own helmet but I wore one on every jump just in case. It's not the things we plan for that kill us, it's the things we never see coming that cause us to bounce. Wow, I guess I am soo crazy to plan for the worst.

Funny - I've yet to ever hear someone say "If he just didn't have a Cypres he would still be alive." Maybe they do help keep stupid people alive - do you have a problem with that? A cypes fire only gains attention in our community, not the press. Now if we could only get a similar device for the idiots that need to downsize and hookturn before they are ready!

Making the correlation to anyone that won't jump without a Cypres is device dependent, and thus unsafe, is flawed and incorrect. It is a sweeping statement that obviously only covers a small percentage of this sport. Would you really use a poll on a web site to support that? It's very easy to ruin the results - just remove your cookies and you can vote as many times as you want. Or better yet, how many people read what was here first and then voted because of popular opinion? There are far more glaring problems in this sport that need to be addressed first.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[Ron 10]

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hmmmm....have never heard anyone say that, and I tend to deal with a lot of new jumpers. Maybe that comes from good instruction and leadership on the DZ?

Well from YOUR DZ:

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http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1608802#1608802

I won't do freefly jumps with newbies that are learning to freefly until i get my cypres back. The chances of jumping with someone that isn't yet stable just isn't worth it to me. I'll stick to jumping with more experienced people. I do realize accidents still happen even with experienced jumpers, but it's my decision. I don't think i need to re-evaluate jumping because of that.

And Kallend has said he will not risk 10 way without a CYPRES...Both from your DZ.

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In Reply To
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I find it funny that you guys seem to be ignoring the simple fact that it IS safer to avoid jumps where you might need an AAD.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Did I ever argue against sitting on the ground when it wasn't safe to go up (weather, type of jump, whatever)? Hmmmm....let me think. Nope. Never did that. Never will.

How about higher risk dives? Say bigways?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334