kelpdiver 2 #51 April 29, 2005 Quote If you felt the AAD will make you safe...you are stupid. An AAD will NOT reduce the chances of something going wrong. Thus bringing us back to the same distinction that Derek wouldn't make. Risk of accident versus risk of death. It's very difficult to measure the risk of accident for an upcoming jump. Too many unknown variables. It's a bit easier to measure the risk of death. If you're incapacitated, the probability of dying without an AAD or a fucking great buddy is 1. Regardless of your skill, some jumps pose a greater risk for an accident than others. If you use an AAD to mitigate the risk of that accident being fatal, you're not device dependent, you're intelligent. If you instead use it in substitution of skill, there is a problem. But I'm not convinced it happens. People may use it as an excuse or rationalization, but not the same. I answered "it depends" because I can't answer no as I've already jumped without, and I can't answer yes because I don't think there would never be a circumstance. It's 3.5 years before my C2 needs servicing, so I won't really know until then. I know you've tried to read "it depends" as proof that people use AADs to do more dangerous jumps, but it's pretty flimsy support for such a claim. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,107 #52 April 29, 2005 QuoteWho is safer, the guy that will fly single engine IFR, or the guy that will not? Having an IFR ticket will not make an engine out less likley. Having an AAD will not reduce the risk of an Accident. I have friends with 23,000 hours that will not fly single engine IFR if they can avoid it. They are safer than a guy with an IFR ticket that will. Wrong. The analysis of aviation accident statistics by ASF shows conclusively that flight by non IFR rated pilots into bad weather causes more accidents by far than all engine failures in single engine aircraft in all weather conditions. In fact, engine failure in singles in IMC didn't show up at all. More likely to be a problem in a light twin. Pilots kill themselves more often than their engines kill them. As the old aviator tale goes, if you have engine failure in a light twin all the remaining engine is good for is flying you to the crash site.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,076 #53 April 30, 2005 >In fact going on a high risk skydive with no AAD shows poor judgment And the point we're all trying to make is that going on a very risky skydive WITH OR WITHOUT AN AAD means you have poor judgement, and skydivers with good judgement (i.e. skydivers who sit out dangerous skydives and choose safer ones) are safer overall. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #54 April 30, 2005 QuoteNo. I too learned how to skydive way before ADDs were used, but since then my life has changed and I have to be responsible for finishing a job I started 19 years ago. What she said, only I'm a dad. My wife has only ever jumped once, but is totally cool & supportive of my jumping. But marriage and family create other responsibilities. When I was young and single I made over 500 jumps with no AAD. I have every confidence in my ability to jump without one now, but while my Cypres is off to Ohio for it's 4 year dusting & cleaning, my wife has asked me not to jump without it. I'm not as free to make the decisions about my own life as I used to be. The Cypres will be back soon enough, and in the meantime there ARE other things to do with your life. By the way Chris, your rigger should be able to reinstall your Cypres without having to open the freebag. Most riggers will do it if it's THEIR pack job. And mine will only charge $10 for his trouble doing it. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andybr6 0 #55 April 30, 2005 At my DZ you have to jump with an AAD until you have your B license [I am not sure if this is a BPA rule or more DZ specific]. I think I would be happy to do a solo without an AAD but I would not want to jump with any one else. I have witnessed Cypres save from the ground [result of a mid-air collision] and that sold me on having an AAD. ------------------------------------------------ "All men can fly, but sadly, only in one direction" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #56 April 30, 2005 QuoteIn fact going on a high risk skydive with no AAD shows poor judgment, and a skydiver with poor judgment is an unsafe skydiver. A skydiver going on a high risk dive with an AAD shows poor judgement. Even if they have ann AAD they should avoid high risk dives."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #57 April 30, 2005 QuoteWrong. The analysis of aviation accident statistics by ASF shows conclusively that flight by non IFR rated pilots into bad weather causes more accidents by far than all engine failures in single engine aircraft in all weather conditions. In fact, engine failure in singles in IMC didn't show up at all. More likely to be a problem in a light twin. You need to reread that. Two guys both with IFR tickets...One will fly single engine IFR, one will not. Who is safer?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,107 #58 April 30, 2005 Quote>In fact going on a high risk skydive with no AAD shows poor judgment And the point we're all trying to make is that going on a very risky skydive WITH OR WITHOUT AN AAD means you have poor judgement, and skydivers with good judgement (i.e. skydivers who sit out dangerous skydives and choose safer ones) are safer overall. That has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not someone decides that a particular type of jump presents an above average collision hazard and that using an AAD is more prudent than not using an AAD on that type of jump. If you'd go on a 400 way attempt with your AAD deliberately turned off, that's your privilege, but I'd say it showed poor judgment.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,107 #59 April 30, 2005 QuoteQuoteWrong. The analysis of aviation accident statistics by ASF shows conclusively that flight by non IFR rated pilots into bad weather causes more accidents by far than all engine failures in single engine aircraft in all weather conditions. In fact, engine failure in singles in IMC didn't show up at all. More likely to be a problem in a light twin. You need to reread that. Two guys both with IFR tickets...One will fly single engine IFR, one will not. Who is safer? The safer one is the one that avoids bad weather and remembers to put gas in the tank. Weather as a cause of fatal accidents is so far ahead of engine failure that there's no comparison. Fuel exhaustion is so far ahead of mechanical failure that there's no comparison. It's there for all to see at the NTSB site. The mean time between failures for piston aero engines is considerably in excess of 100,000 hours when fuel exhaustion is excluded. Flying a twin does not immunize you from fuel exhaustion. Of course on a twin, with two engines to fail, the probability of having an engine failure is twice as high, but then you have one working engine left to fly to the crash site of your choice.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #60 May 1, 2005 QuoteOf course on a twin, with two engines to fail, the probability of having an engine failure is twice as high, but then you have one working engine left to fly to the crash site of your choice. I`ve hread this from a pilot. Its a really nice quote . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #61 May 1, 2005 Quote Your interpretation is not the same as mine. Agreed. No jump is safe. I did my first 150 jumps off student status without one. I don't NEED one (and have proven that) but I WANT one on every jump. Shortly after putting my AAD back in my rig I was knocked out in freefall. I came to only a few short seconds later, but if it was any worse I would have needed it. I've been on the DZ when someone NEEDED the AAD in his rig to be turned on....it was a simple two way and he had over 1000 jumps. However, it was too late and we all got to hear people say nice things about him at his funeral. I WANT to avoid that happening to me and those around me. But nonetheless, I could have attended one less funeral if someone had been using their Cypres. I've yet to meet someone that has said "If they just didn't have a Cyrpes we wouldn't have lost our friend." I don't measure ANY jump and say "Well, this one is risky, but it's ok since I have an AAD." Yet, people seem to think that is the same thing as saying "I won't jump without an AAD because it is risky." Two very different things. Those that love to make an argument over this whole "wanting" a cypres thing never seem to understand that difference and claim those that do are device dependent....and they, and their puppets, go on endlessly about it....... It's interesting watching them argue against people when they are in full agreement with them but failed to see the nuance of the words. Maybe it will take a funeral for a friend for them to realize what is really being said. Hopefully people will say nice things at their funeral as well if they get killed in a situation where a Cypres would have saved them. There isn't ONE safe skydive you can do. They are all dangerous. They are all high risk. Even a solo from a bi-plane has the possibility of you needing one. Can you do that jump without one? Yup, without a doubt. Should you sit on the ground if your Cypres is in for checkup and not do that jump? Well, that's a personal decision and I wouldn't try to stop you. But maybe you should think about stacking the deck in your favor? Their will always be the contrary people that love to argue that ALL newbies are device dependent because of something they heard from one or two lowtimers (and give no credit to the JM's that taught them)......or because of the simple play on words I pointed above. Then their are oldtimers that like to brag they don't use an AAD and that you should be like them and not use one. These also seem to be the ones that are ok with humming it and dumping below 2000 under a Safire or similar canopy. Or those that jump while stone or drunk and those that encourage them (and encourage or approve of midday drug use at the DZ). Maybe these bad examples are where you should be wasting your efforts instead of yet another AAD thread. Or better yet - be a good example on the DZ and show the newbies how it's done safely and encourage safe practices. The young tend to emulate what they see around them. If they are acting up and being stupid the first thing you should do is look in the mirror and see if they learned it from you._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #62 May 2, 2005 QuoteThe safer one is the one that avoids bad weather and remembers to put gas in the tank And the skydiver that avoids dangerous situations is safer than the one that does them since he has "Gas in the tank (an AAD)""No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #63 May 2, 2005 QuoteI don't measure ANY jump and say "Well, this one is risky, but it's ok since I have an AAD." Ah, but people do say that.... QuoteThose that love to make an argument over this whole "wanting" a cypres thing never seem to understand that difference and claim those that do are device dependent....and they, and their puppets, go on endlessly about it...... And the people who can't understand that many who claim to not be device dependant are infact. And their puppets go on about it also, never understanding the problem. QuoteIt's interesting watching them argue against people when they are in full agreement with them but failed to see the nuance of the words. Maybe it will take a funeral for a friend for them to realize what is really being said. I have been to plenty of funerals. I find it funny that you guys seem to be ignoring the simple fact that it IS safer to avoid jumps where you might need an AAD. Instead we have some that admitting that, they use a play on words to avoid answering that question for themselves. All the time trying to justify their position of allowing themselves, and encouraging others, to do more dangerous stuff since they have an AAD."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,107 #64 May 2, 2005 QuoteQuote I find it funny that you guys seem to be ignoring the simple fact that it IS safer to avoid jumps where you might need an AAD. . That's any jump at all, Ron. Tom Piras showed us that. Maybe 4-way should be banned. Would you be happy then?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #65 May 2, 2005 QuoteThat's any jump at all, Ron. Tom Piras showed us that. Maybe 4-way should be banned. Would you be happy then? Better than taking your "Anything is OK as long as you have a CYPRES" stance. John, what do you think of this statement: Quote http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1608802#1608802 I won't do freefly jumps with newbies that are learning to freefly until i get my cypres back. The chances of jumping with someone that isn't yet stable just isn't worth it to me. I'll stick to jumping with more experienced people. I do realize accidents still happen even with experienced jumpers, but it's my decision. I don't think i need to re-evaluate jumping because of that. Here is a jumper taht due to having a CYPRES will do jumps that they would not without it. Therefore this jumper is doing more dangerous things...Things they think is too dangerous without an AAD since they have one. How is that safe? Please, tell me what you think about this quote."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,107 #66 May 2, 2005 QuoteQuoteThat's any jump at all, Ron. Tom Piras showed us that. Maybe 4-way should be banned. Would you be happy then? Better than taking your "Anything is OK as long as you have a CYPRES" stance. John, what do you think of this statement: Quote http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1608802#1608802 I won't do freefly jumps with newbies that are learning to freefly until i get my cypres back. The chances of jumping with someone that isn't yet stable just isn't worth it to me. I'll stick to jumping with more experienced people. I do realize accidents still happen even with experienced jumpers, but it's my decision. I don't think i need to re-evaluate jumping because of that. Here is a jumper taht due to having a CYPRES will do jumps that they would not without it. Therefore this jumper is doing more dangerous things...Things they think is too dangerous without an AAD since they have one. How is that safe? Please, tell me what you think about this quote. I think it represents a very sensible attitude from someone whose good friend made a freefly coaching jump with his AAD turned off, the newbie corked into him, and he died no-pull. I agree with her. Learning from the mistakes of others shows good judgment. Perhaps you haven't lost a friend this way. The worst possible way to honor Faulkner would be to repeat what he did.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #67 May 2, 2005 QuoteI think it represents a very sensible attitude from someone whose good friend made a freefly coaching jump with his AAD turned off, the newbie corked into him, and he died no-pull. I agree with her. Learning from the mistakes of others shows good judgment So it is perfectly fine to go on any skydive you want as long as you have a CYPRES? Do you also fly in IMC just cause you can? Do you run red lights, or drive drunk since you have an Airbag? Would it not be SAFER to just avoid dangerous situations?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,107 #68 May 2, 2005 QuoteQuoteI think it represents a very sensible attitude from someone whose good friend made a freefly coaching jump with his AAD turned off, the newbie corked into him, and he died no-pull. I agree with her. Learning from the mistakes of others shows good judgment So it is perfectly fine to go on any skydive you want as long as you have a CYPRES? Do you also fly in IMC just cause you can? Do you run red lights, or drive drunk since you have an Airbag? Would it not be SAFER to just avoid dangerous situations? Well, we could all just stay in bed. A dangerous situation doesn't become more safe because you are willing to put yourself in it without an AAD. It becomes more dangerous.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #69 May 2, 2005 QuoteA dangerous situation doesn't become more safe because you are willing to put yourself in it without an AAD. It becomes more dangerous. No, but my take has always been Don't do a jump with an AAD that you would not do wthout an AAD. Not do the jump without the AAD. Compare it to driving drunk. Most think driving drunk is a bad idea...However if you are going to drive drunk you should do so ina car with seatbelts and an Airbag to increase your chances of survival. The BEST thing is to avoid driving while drunk, not making sure you have airbags. The best thing is to avoid dangerous skydives....Not do them just because you have an AAD. I fail to see how you can't crasp the logic in not using the AAD to as a way to allow yourself to do reckless things."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #70 May 2, 2005 QuoteDo you also fly in IMC just cause you can? Do you run red lights, or drive drunk since you have an Airbag? How the hell can you compare those?? Ron, your argument is ridiculous. You wouldn't have any problem with a freefly coach that doesn't use a cypres (or would do it without one), but you have a problem with a freefly coach that chooses to use a cypres. Assuming we're talking about 2 jumpers of exactly equal skill and experience and both have the same knowledge of past history, how the hell can you say one should be coaching and the other shouldn't? They are taking exactly equal risks. One uses good judgement based on history, recognizing that the odds of a collision are very high when coaching newbies. The other ignores history (or has suicidal tendencies). This is like "if you wanna do dangerous skydives, you better be really freaking macho and be 100% willing to die doing it." Some people don't have that attitude. They'd rather accept that some jumps have a high collision risk and use a backup system in case the odds catch up with them. This whole "that skydive is too dangerous for you but not for me because i'll do it without a cypres" is a bullshit argument. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #71 May 2, 2005 QuoteCompare it to driving drunk. Most think driving drunk is a bad idea...However if you are going to drive drunk you should do so ina car with seatbelts and an Airbag to increase your chances of survival. Ron, you're comparing drunk driving with coaching newbies or doing AFF instruction. It's ridiculous. Nobody here is saying "if you're going to skydive drunk, use an AAD. That's not anything like any argument anybody is making. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #72 May 2, 2005 QuoteHow the hell can you compare those?? Really easily. QuoteRon, your argument is ridiculous Uh, no. you failing to see the error in your thinking is. QuoteYou wouldn't have any problem with a freefly coach that doesn't use a cypres (or would do it without one), but you have a problem with a freefly coach that chooses to use a cypres. You still miss the point. QuoteAssuming we're talking about 2 jumpers of exactly equal skill and experience and both have the same knowledge of past history, how the hell can you say one should be coaching and the other shouldn't? They are taking exactly equal risks. One uses good judgement based on history, recognizing that the odds of a collision are very high when coaching newbies. The other ignores history (or has suicidal tendencies). See you still miss the point. If you think that coaching a newbie is suicidal without a CYPRES, then you are stupid to do it with one. The risk of an accident is the same...you just feel its ok to do anything if you have a cYPRES... Here is where the Drunk driving comes in. Most think driving drunk is stupid right? But if you are gonna do it, the safest thing would be to drive drunk in a car with seatbelts and airbags. Having seatbelts and airbags does not make driving drunk any smarter The risk of an accident is the same.....Just like having an AAD does not make coaching a newbie any smarter. If you are willing to do a jump with an AAD that you consider stuipd without, thats like saying you are willing to drive drunk since the Airbags make you safe. QuoteThis whole "that skydive is too dangerous for you but not for me because i'll do it without a cypres" is a bullshit argument. And again you miss the point...I never said that. I said "If that skydive is to dangerous for you without a CYPRES...then it should be to dangerous for you WITH ONE." No where have I ever said jack shit about you or me.....The questions are for you or me, but not to compare the two... And thats why you have no clue about what I am talking about."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #73 May 2, 2005 QuoteRon, you're comparing drunk driving with coaching newbies or doing AFF instruction. It's ridiculous. Nobody here is saying "if you're going to skydive drunk, use an AAD. That's not anything like any argument anybody is making. Again you miss the point. What we are saying is, "If you think driving drunk is stupid, don't do it even if you have Airbags." What you are saying is, "I would only drive drunk with Airbags." You WILL be safer driving drunk with airbags....But the safest thing is not to drive drunk, not to do it only if you have airbags."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 2,107 #74 May 2, 2005 QuoteQuoteRon, you're comparing drunk driving with coaching newbies or doing AFF instruction. It's ridiculous. Nobody here is saying "if you're going to skydive drunk, use an AAD. That's not anything like any argument anybody is making. Again you miss the point. What we are saying is, "If you think driving drunk is stupid, don't do it even if you have Airbags." What you are saying is, "I would only drive drunk with Airbags." You WILL be safer driving drunk with airbags....But the safest thing is not to drive drunk, not to do it only if you have airbags. Given that skydiving carries about the same risk of death as drunk driving, you are saying that no-one should skydive.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ron 10 #75 May 2, 2005 QuoteGiven that skydiving carries about the same risk of death as drunk driving, you are saying that no-one should skydive. If thats what you want to take from this....Please, do sell your gear. What I would like people to take from this is the real message. And that message is that if you consider an event (newbie coaching, 100ways, driving drunk, running red lights, running high class rapids...ect) to be to dangerous without (AAD's, Airbags, Helmets)....Then it should be to dangerous to do even with the added equipment since the chance of an accident is not lessend by these saftey devices, only the surviability of the acts. And since true saftey is avoiding accidents it makes more sense to avoid them, than to just do them with the added saftey stuff. So if you consider jumping on a 10 way speed jump to dangerous without an AAD, then maybe you should not do them even with one. But please, do sell your gear if you want."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 3 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. 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Ron 10 #65 May 2, 2005 QuoteThat's any jump at all, Ron. Tom Piras showed us that. Maybe 4-way should be banned. Would you be happy then? Better than taking your "Anything is OK as long as you have a CYPRES" stance. John, what do you think of this statement: Quote http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1608802#1608802 I won't do freefly jumps with newbies that are learning to freefly until i get my cypres back. The chances of jumping with someone that isn't yet stable just isn't worth it to me. I'll stick to jumping with more experienced people. I do realize accidents still happen even with experienced jumpers, but it's my decision. I don't think i need to re-evaluate jumping because of that. Here is a jumper taht due to having a CYPRES will do jumps that they would not without it. Therefore this jumper is doing more dangerous things...Things they think is too dangerous without an AAD since they have one. How is that safe? Please, tell me what you think about this quote."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,107 #66 May 2, 2005 QuoteQuoteThat's any jump at all, Ron. Tom Piras showed us that. Maybe 4-way should be banned. Would you be happy then? Better than taking your "Anything is OK as long as you have a CYPRES" stance. John, what do you think of this statement: Quote http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1608802#1608802 I won't do freefly jumps with newbies that are learning to freefly until i get my cypres back. The chances of jumping with someone that isn't yet stable just isn't worth it to me. I'll stick to jumping with more experienced people. I do realize accidents still happen even with experienced jumpers, but it's my decision. I don't think i need to re-evaluate jumping because of that. Here is a jumper taht due to having a CYPRES will do jumps that they would not without it. Therefore this jumper is doing more dangerous things...Things they think is too dangerous without an AAD since they have one. How is that safe? Please, tell me what you think about this quote. I think it represents a very sensible attitude from someone whose good friend made a freefly coaching jump with his AAD turned off, the newbie corked into him, and he died no-pull. I agree with her. Learning from the mistakes of others shows good judgment. Perhaps you haven't lost a friend this way. The worst possible way to honor Faulkner would be to repeat what he did.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #67 May 2, 2005 QuoteI think it represents a very sensible attitude from someone whose good friend made a freefly coaching jump with his AAD turned off, the newbie corked into him, and he died no-pull. I agree with her. Learning from the mistakes of others shows good judgment So it is perfectly fine to go on any skydive you want as long as you have a CYPRES? Do you also fly in IMC just cause you can? Do you run red lights, or drive drunk since you have an Airbag? Would it not be SAFER to just avoid dangerous situations?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,107 #68 May 2, 2005 QuoteQuoteI think it represents a very sensible attitude from someone whose good friend made a freefly coaching jump with his AAD turned off, the newbie corked into him, and he died no-pull. I agree with her. Learning from the mistakes of others shows good judgment So it is perfectly fine to go on any skydive you want as long as you have a CYPRES? Do you also fly in IMC just cause you can? Do you run red lights, or drive drunk since you have an Airbag? Would it not be SAFER to just avoid dangerous situations? Well, we could all just stay in bed. A dangerous situation doesn't become more safe because you are willing to put yourself in it without an AAD. It becomes more dangerous.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #69 May 2, 2005 QuoteA dangerous situation doesn't become more safe because you are willing to put yourself in it without an AAD. It becomes more dangerous. No, but my take has always been Don't do a jump with an AAD that you would not do wthout an AAD. Not do the jump without the AAD. Compare it to driving drunk. Most think driving drunk is a bad idea...However if you are going to drive drunk you should do so ina car with seatbelts and an Airbag to increase your chances of survival. The BEST thing is to avoid driving while drunk, not making sure you have airbags. The best thing is to avoid dangerous skydives....Not do them just because you have an AAD. I fail to see how you can't crasp the logic in not using the AAD to as a way to allow yourself to do reckless things."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #70 May 2, 2005 QuoteDo you also fly in IMC just cause you can? Do you run red lights, or drive drunk since you have an Airbag? How the hell can you compare those?? Ron, your argument is ridiculous. You wouldn't have any problem with a freefly coach that doesn't use a cypres (or would do it without one), but you have a problem with a freefly coach that chooses to use a cypres. Assuming we're talking about 2 jumpers of exactly equal skill and experience and both have the same knowledge of past history, how the hell can you say one should be coaching and the other shouldn't? They are taking exactly equal risks. One uses good judgement based on history, recognizing that the odds of a collision are very high when coaching newbies. The other ignores history (or has suicidal tendencies). This is like "if you wanna do dangerous skydives, you better be really freaking macho and be 100% willing to die doing it." Some people don't have that attitude. They'd rather accept that some jumps have a high collision risk and use a backup system in case the odds catch up with them. This whole "that skydive is too dangerous for you but not for me because i'll do it without a cypres" is a bullshit argument. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #71 May 2, 2005 QuoteCompare it to driving drunk. Most think driving drunk is a bad idea...However if you are going to drive drunk you should do so ina car with seatbelts and an Airbag to increase your chances of survival. Ron, you're comparing drunk driving with coaching newbies or doing AFF instruction. It's ridiculous. Nobody here is saying "if you're going to skydive drunk, use an AAD. That's not anything like any argument anybody is making. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #72 May 2, 2005 QuoteHow the hell can you compare those?? Really easily. QuoteRon, your argument is ridiculous Uh, no. you failing to see the error in your thinking is. QuoteYou wouldn't have any problem with a freefly coach that doesn't use a cypres (or would do it without one), but you have a problem with a freefly coach that chooses to use a cypres. You still miss the point. QuoteAssuming we're talking about 2 jumpers of exactly equal skill and experience and both have the same knowledge of past history, how the hell can you say one should be coaching and the other shouldn't? They are taking exactly equal risks. One uses good judgement based on history, recognizing that the odds of a collision are very high when coaching newbies. The other ignores history (or has suicidal tendencies). See you still miss the point. If you think that coaching a newbie is suicidal without a CYPRES, then you are stupid to do it with one. The risk of an accident is the same...you just feel its ok to do anything if you have a cYPRES... Here is where the Drunk driving comes in. Most think driving drunk is stupid right? But if you are gonna do it, the safest thing would be to drive drunk in a car with seatbelts and airbags. Having seatbelts and airbags does not make driving drunk any smarter The risk of an accident is the same.....Just like having an AAD does not make coaching a newbie any smarter. If you are willing to do a jump with an AAD that you consider stuipd without, thats like saying you are willing to drive drunk since the Airbags make you safe. QuoteThis whole "that skydive is too dangerous for you but not for me because i'll do it without a cypres" is a bullshit argument. And again you miss the point...I never said that. I said "If that skydive is to dangerous for you without a CYPRES...then it should be to dangerous for you WITH ONE." No where have I ever said jack shit about you or me.....The questions are for you or me, but not to compare the two... And thats why you have no clue about what I am talking about."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #73 May 2, 2005 QuoteRon, you're comparing drunk driving with coaching newbies or doing AFF instruction. It's ridiculous. Nobody here is saying "if you're going to skydive drunk, use an AAD. That's not anything like any argument anybody is making. Again you miss the point. What we are saying is, "If you think driving drunk is stupid, don't do it even if you have Airbags." What you are saying is, "I would only drive drunk with Airbags." You WILL be safer driving drunk with airbags....But the safest thing is not to drive drunk, not to do it only if you have airbags."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,107 #74 May 2, 2005 QuoteQuoteRon, you're comparing drunk driving with coaching newbies or doing AFF instruction. It's ridiculous. Nobody here is saying "if you're going to skydive drunk, use an AAD. That's not anything like any argument anybody is making. Again you miss the point. What we are saying is, "If you think driving drunk is stupid, don't do it even if you have Airbags." What you are saying is, "I would only drive drunk with Airbags." You WILL be safer driving drunk with airbags....But the safest thing is not to drive drunk, not to do it only if you have airbags. Given that skydiving carries about the same risk of death as drunk driving, you are saying that no-one should skydive.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #75 May 2, 2005 QuoteGiven that skydiving carries about the same risk of death as drunk driving, you are saying that no-one should skydive. If thats what you want to take from this....Please, do sell your gear. What I would like people to take from this is the real message. And that message is that if you consider an event (newbie coaching, 100ways, driving drunk, running red lights, running high class rapids...ect) to be to dangerous without (AAD's, Airbags, Helmets)....Then it should be to dangerous to do even with the added equipment since the chance of an accident is not lessend by these saftey devices, only the surviability of the acts. And since true saftey is avoiding accidents it makes more sense to avoid them, than to just do them with the added saftey stuff. So if you consider jumping on a 10 way speed jump to dangerous without an AAD, then maybe you should not do them even with one. But please, do sell your gear if you want."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
