Canuck 0 #26 April 29, 2005 You're missing the point, and I'm losing interest. Why are you talking about camera mounts? It doesn't matter whether you have a bullet camera surgically mounted into your skull, or an IMAX camera with a boat anchor attached to it on your head. I'm talking about flying, awareness, and judgment skills that come only with experience. And the other part of your argument, that goes along the lines of "everybody else is doing it" is about the dumbest one you can make. Just because "everyone" is doing it doesn't make it right. Need I turn your attention to all the people pounding into the ground under canopies too small for their experience... Canuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #27 April 29, 2005 As per usual.....the bias will always go to those whose numbers are 'higher' Maybe its a UK/US thing.......to jump camera here is not as easy as just doing it. I'm insulted by the original statement.....as it insults the hard work /preparation I have done to jump my camera. I'm a total beginner to it.......but safety is a total concern.....like just about eveyone around me doing the same. Because its my concren I have no doubt that I will be around long enough ( at 500jumps) to get right back to you and confirm my ( like others) attitudes are the same....jump number independent....ie safety first But of course you might not be interested to hear that in a year...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canuck 0 #28 April 29, 2005 QuoteWhile I don't necessarily agree on the #'s Canuck is throwing out, I do agree with the general statement he's making. Too many people have camera too soon and it's a distraction. It is somewhat of an arbitrary number, but so are the ones for all the various instructor, PRO, etc. ratings out there, and I really like the idea of a camera rating. We're making the same point. Canuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #29 April 29, 2005 *sigh* First, get the chip off your shoulder. If you actually read my post I'm not saying anything about what numbers you can cannot jump a camera at. I'm talking about mindset and awareness. If you have it, great, if you don't fine, just don't let the camera be a distraction. QuoteBecause its my concren I have no doubt that I will be around long enough ( at 500jumps) to get right back to you and confirm my ( like others) attitudes are the same....jump number independent....ie safety first Wow, well right there is a problem. You see, I can't guarentee I'll be around after my next skydive tomorrow. Mistakes happen, I make 'em, other people make them. If you never accept the fact that you can die doing this even if you do it right you're deluding yourself. QuoteBut of course you might not be interested to hear that in a year...... *sigh*...again. You're missing the point. I'd honestly be surprised if something happened that was directly camera related to you. That doesn't mean, however, that you're not upping the chances of something happening to you. QuoteAs per usual.....the bias will always go to those whose numbers are 'higher' As per usual, some people will always think they're special and nothing can hurt them. Blues, IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #30 April 29, 2005 QuoteNeed I turn your attention to all the people pounding into the ground under canopies too small for their experience... Keep to the point....dont try and justify your argument with a completely different subject that has proven inferences that you are trying to relate your original argument with..... What your are inferring is that people in my experince level are unsafe with camera.......you are mistaken This may have been valid when you had <500jumps (no insult intended)....but that was a long time ago....the world has revolved several times since then and people havfe moved on....get over it. Or at least address your argument to those who write your SIMs and recoomendations (2004-2005) for jumping with camera..... Perhaps they dont have the benefit of your profound wisdom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #31 April 29, 2005 In general to your post.....maybe I am 'different' ....but likely not But the arrogance of the initial statement ( ie camera<500jumps=Bad) is AS arrogant a someone with <500jumps saying they are Gods gift to camera work....simpley because there are plenty of people out there sub 500 jumps doing good camera work. Maybe 10 years ago that wasnt the case....but then again 10 years ago....Doctors took longer to train as did Pilots as did Air Traffic Controllers. Make a statement based on whats in the now....not whats in the past....thats all... I'm out...nothing else to add here that isnt just negative, and thats not constructive, anyways ...I have video to review and edit, to make my performance better..........perhaps you didnt bother doing that at 200jumps........ go figure.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Canuck 0 #32 April 29, 2005 QuoteKeep to the point Same point - that being the justifaction of action based on what "everybody else" is doing. As to the SIMs - check the profile dude. Canada. We don't have SIMs, we have PIMs, and the last I checked, the recommendation in them for camera is 500 jumps. Funny how you think I'm being arrogant by saying very few people with less than 500 jumps should being jumping camera. I see it as you being arrogant for thinking with your 200 and some jumps that you are up to the task. And quit throwing around this ten year thing. Despite what you might have heard Colon Berry say in Millenium 2 - we have not turned into birds or evolved. Other than smaller cameras, not a thing has changed (except, as I said earlier, we now often fly faster and in more orientations, which actually makes camera flying WAY more difficult and dangerous). Done. Canuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #33 April 30, 2005 QuoteWhat I do have is a very realistic and practically based knowledge of what I can and cant do I've seen MANY people say that right before they broke both femurs. Honestly.. I tried wearing a video helmet once.. It was too much for me.. I've got 600+ jumps and still have no need for one.. Too much work for the payoff. Maybe I'm just not that good at multitasking.. Most of what I do is just fly the canopy.. That takes 110% of my focus all the time.. I would hate to watch to catch a glimpse of something because I have a camera and miss something else that ends up killing me.. I'm only saying me here.. I know gobs of people that are great with cameras and that don't seem to get distracted. It's important to know your limits.. I am very aware of mine.. Be safe,, Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
upndownshop 0 #34 April 30, 2005 Zoter QuoteI'm insulted by the original statement.....as it insults the hard work /preparation I have done to jump my camera QuoteSaw a double fatal. 2 years ago trying to get COOL Vid. Both of theses guys had under 300 jumps Some one call the EMT's here comes another stat! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #35 April 30, 2005 For as much as the original topic has been discussed , you obviously have not been reading the specifics in the postings.... At no point I have ever suggested that its 'OK' to compromise safety to get 'Cool Vid'....quite the opposite in fact. Go and actually read the posts, and perhaps add something constructive ... Commenting on a topic without actually reading the material posted suggests a level of complacency.....and thats the first step to problems in any situation.. QuoteI'm only saying me here.. I know gobs of people that are great with cameras and that don't seem to get distracted. It's important to know your limits.. I am very aware of mine.. So far thats about the most constructive post I have seen here on the topic...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
upndownshop 0 #36 April 30, 2005 For as much as the original topic has been discussed , you obviously have not been reading the specifics in the postings....Quote You my friend just proved our entire point. Awareness, YOU dont have any. I did read the post and I am one of the first one's that commented on low jump numbers wearing a camera and being unsafe. Its not the equipment it is the Skydiving skills, and one of the most important skills we can have is awareness, and it only comes with time. You dont have that yet. In another 500 jumps you will be laughing at yourself (for thinking this way), just like we all did as we progressed. Please stop giving advice, go make a ton of jumps, and hopefully you will be around long enough to give something back to the sport. Blue skies to you.. I now join Canuck, I'm done with this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #37 April 30, 2005 Quote For as much as the original topic has been discussed , you obviously have not been reading the specifics in the postings.... At no point I have ever suggested that its 'OK' to compromise safety to get 'Cool Vid'....quite the opposite in fact. Go and actually read the posts, and perhaps add something constructive ... Commenting on a topic without actually reading the material posted suggests a level of complacency.....and thats the first step to problems in any situation.. How about we stop bickering before the thread is locked. Maybe you are a video God.. Who cares. People are coming out of the bushes to admit this is a problem. That is progress. Let's keep making progress. The next step is for some people to practice some introspection and say to themselves "maybe I don't know everything, and maybe I should just hold off".. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #38 April 30, 2005 I have never claimed to know 'everything' I have never claimed that compromising safety to get 'cool video' is acceptable. I merely have disagreed with generalised statements regarding the ability to be able to perform certain taks before an arbitary number of jumps ........unfortunately the minute you disagree with anyone on here with more jump numbers they immediately take it as an attack on their knowledge base.. Statements about 'No one has any business camera flying sub 500 jumps".....or '"you have no awareness..." when these people have absolutely no idea of an individuals pereformance prior and current are purely inflammatory and as a reaction to being 'disagreed with'....... Disagreement in this particular circumstance has been twisted into a discussion over my particular ability to be safe....... What you may have been like at 200 jumps is not necessarily the why I am at 200 jumps.....just like there will be a difference in individuals at 1000 jumps.......if not and we are all the same...I'll shut it, but we all know thats not the case. I really wont be adding anything else to this thread...Rhino is quite correct here and I dont have anything new to add Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #39 April 30, 2005 QuoteCommenting on a topic without actually reading the material posted suggests a level of complacency.....and thats the first step to problems in any situation.. If you're saying someone's posting habits on DZ.com are indicative of their safety in the sky, I'm laughing. I think most reasonable people will becoming a little bit more aware when looking out the door of an airplane than when hammering away on a keyboard.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pash 0 #40 April 30, 2005 QuoteMake a statement based on whats in the now....not whats in the past....thats all... Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakyrat 1 #41 April 30, 2005 Rhino First off I respect you and your opinion . I remember the WFFC in Quincy when the Super Connie made the flyby. He was so low that the people were darn near diving off their motorhomes. Also at Freeport (Freakbrother Convention) one year when we went out to moon the DC3 on a flyby, it came in so low that people had to really lie low on the ground. From my experience in aviation, accidents happen when a series of things go wrong. Any one of these breaking this chain and the accident most likely won't happen. Look at the recent accident of the 19yr old pilot flying a Piper Cherokee from New York to Wisconsin over Lake Michigan at 11:45 at night. He runs out of gas and ditches into the lake 8 miles from the west coastline. He tells ATC that he is running out of fuel before he ditches. He ditches, gets out of the plane and calls 911 on his cell phone and then says he is going to try to swim ashore in 44 degree water. The plane has been found but no sign of the pilot. Now what is wrong with this picture? Several mistakes in this pilots decision making contributed to this accident. If he would have landed and stayed overnight somewhere in Michigan and then flew the next day He probably would have been alive. The lake water temp. was about 44 degrees. The pilot had no life vest or like equipment. If the pilot would have took off the next morning and planned to fly around the lake and put up with the Chicago Class B airspace procedures he still would would be alive. If he would have stopped for fuel in Michigan before crossing the lake he may still be alive. It may be cool to fly across the lake in a single engine plane and after all it's only 80 miles across or about 1 hour or less but is it safe. Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperKat 0 #42 April 30, 2005 QuoteGo read the recent posts and watch the videos in this forum from Superkat. Two perfect examples of how it's not as simple as just ignoring that you're even wearing a camera... There are very very few people with less than 500 jumps than have any business having a camera strapped to their heads. Canuck Great, so now I'm a model example of a low jump number skydiver that shouldn't have gotten video attached to his head. Seriously, all jokes aside, you have to understand one thing. I didn't just one day decide to buy a camera and put it on my head. I consulted over 20 people about this. All were professional videographers and Jump Masters. I actually waited till I got my C license and attained 200 jumps. I even mentioned this to my mentors, Heath Richardson and Scott Miller before I put the camera on my head. They guided me and gave me good solid advice as to camera flying safety and what not. Those two videos are proof that my choice to jump more than 2 ways with low number jumpers were bad choices. I don't make those bad choices any longer. I've learned from them. Besides those videos were from way over 50 jumps ago. If you see my videos now, you can see that I'm well aware of my surroundings and what not. I'm constantly working with my videographer mentors and showing them my homework. I don't just fly the camera and keep it to myself. I look to them for comments, pointing out mistakes and learning new things from them. You're making a wrong assumption that I just want to look cool with a video camera on my head and show cool video. Like I mentioned in my previous posts, I fly the camera on my head like it's not there. I have not had any near misses or incidents since then. I learned not to jump with people that had low numbers. I strictly fly my slot and turn points and that's that. I got advice from tons of people before doing this, and I received encouragement from both Heath and Scott, so please don't say that I made a bad choice. I thought long and hard before doing this. I always used to read about camera entanglement deaths in parachutist magazine. I'm well aware of the dangers that may arise with putting a camera on my head. Believe me, I am constantly asking for advice and getting feedback from all my video mentors. I'm not doing this just for shit and giggles or getting the perfect shot. I don't even give a f*ck if no one is centered in my camera shot. i'm taking this very seriously and I'm constantly working with professionals to be safe and what not. What's the most you ever lost in a coin toss, Friendo? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #43 May 1, 2005 Zoter, you are wrong. You will be profoundly more safe when you have more jumps, and have witnessed more wacky shit. I put a camera on my head at 200 jumps, and was jumping for money when I had 300. I had a camera on my head when I broke my ankle, and when I just about femured myself, and both of those jumps happened between 300 and 600. I've jumped video with the international crowd, and I'm familiar with the UK or Euro attitude you speak of. It's like the New York jumpers here. Since you go into mothballs for half the calendar, you tend to spend that time doing what we would term safety-day stuff here. Just to jump in the Herc Boogie you have to have more jumps than you have altogether, and jumping camera would be unheard of. And those are your European rules. They make sense. No amount of ground school, book learning, or drills changes that. -I've also been jumping only for 4 years, so I don't have whatever "10 year" thing you seem hung up on. It's not that you are unsafe now. It's that you will much more safe. Much More Safe. When you have been jumping a few more years, and have hundreds and hundreds more jumps. As to Rhino, I don't think Cool Video kills people generally. Most tandem video is cool, and we didn't kill any tandem passengers this year in the US, that I am aware of. I have shot hours and hours of cool video, even a little photography, and I haven't gotten anybody injured or killed. Neither has Gasson, Finley, Hathaway, or McGowan (friends of mine, but out of my league) Skydiving kills people. Period. Often even when they were doing everything right. Sometimes it's on video. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #44 May 1, 2005 QuoteMost tandem video is cool, and we didn't kill any tandem passengers this year in the US, that I am aware of. I have shot hours and hours of cool video, even a little photography, and I haven't gotten anybody injured or killed. Neither has Gasson, Finley, Hathaway, or McGowan (friends of mine, but out of my league) You missed the point.. Those people are professionals. They do video for a living. THEY DON'T STAND AROUND THE DROPZONE THINKING OF COOL SHIT THAT WOULD BE COOL TO HAVE ON VIDEO AND GIVE PEOPLE RISKY IDEAS THAT THEY NORMALLY WOULDN'T HAVE DONE. Scenario A. You are on the ground and see someone like Hook swoop the hangar. Cool video. Scenario B. You walk up to Hook and say "Hey man! Why don't you swoop that hangar so I can get you on video!" Scenario A is one thing. Scenario B is the cool video idea that gets people hurt. It's amazing how many different times one can explain the same thing and people still don't get it. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scrumpot 1 #45 May 1, 2005 QuoteIt's amazing how many different times one can explain the same thing and people still don't get it. HA! ...Word. Welcome to the club! coitus non circum - Moab Stone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #46 May 2, 2005 QuoteQuoteMost tandem video is cool, and we didn't kill any tandem passengers this year in the US, that I am aware of. I have shot hours and hours of cool video, even a little photography, and I haven't gotten anybody injured or killed. Neither has Gasson, Finley, Hathaway, or McGowan (friends of mine, but out of my league) You missed the point.. Those people are professionals. They do video for a living. THEY DON'T STAND AROUND THE DROPZONE THINKING OF COOL SHIT THAT WOULD BE COOL TO HAVE ON VIDEO AND GIVE PEOPLE RISKY IDEAS THAT THEY NORMALLY WOULDN'T HAVE DONE. Scenario A. You are on the ground and see someone like Hook swoop the hangar. Cool video. Scenario B. You walk up to Hook and say "Hey man! Why don't you swoop that hangar so I can get you on video!" Scenario A is one thing. Scenario B is the cool video idea that gets people hurt. It's amazing how many different times one can explain the same thing and people still don't get it. Rhino Dude, you are being stubborn. I didn't miss the point at all. OF COURSE those guys stand and sit around the dropzone thinking of cool stuff to have on video. Stuff that puts people at EXTRAORDINARY risk of getting killed. Like riding out of a skyvan in a stripped-down Honda, or a living-room set. Contrast that against the time AggieDave jumped with a hellishly low number of jumps with a pumpkin over his head. I was with Brent Finley, Mike McGowan, and Greg Gasson over the Holiday this year. I love those guys, they are very positive and innovative. GG proposed driving a Greyhound bus with the roof sawed-off full of skydivers out of a C-5. That would be some wicked-cool video. So will any video of the upcoming Women's world record. Hundreds of women jumping out of probably a dozen planes. I couldn't get a slot on that gig. The danger of that proposition is astounding. A woman died doing just that on the last attempt. Is a woman getting killed COOL VIDEO? No. Video of a very dangerous world record is something very cool, though. If our disagreement is about guys asking each other to break the law, like planning to open a reserve at terminal at 500 feet to prove some dick-length issue, then I concede. Otherwise, no. All skydiving is cool. All of us (as my bud Mike has said) will die if we exit the aircraft at X-teen thousand feet and take no other action. Me doing an "opening shot video" is very dangerous. Hell, Girlfalldown nearly got killed by an opening that ChopChop video'd. Yeah the sport is hellishly dangerous. Yahoos cranking that up for thrills on video are a tiny fraction of the danger the sport presents to all skydivers. Rhino, I am not missing the point. I disagree with you that staging coolio photographs and video are skydivings deadly idea. I do that stuff all the time. Every one of the attached photographs or grabs increased the possibility of death of the participants. Every participant risked their life just skydiving with me, or even by themself. If your point is that it is stupid to ask somebody to fly their canopy through a 10 foot cement pipe so they can get "cool video" I agree. But that seems obvious. "Hey, I'll be in the landing area when you do your swoop" and the swooper plants his ass in the afterlife is less so. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhino 0 #47 May 2, 2005 QuoteOF COURSE those guys stand and sit around the dropzone thinking of cool stuff to have on video. Stuff that puts people at EXTRAORDINARY risk of getting killed. Like riding out of a skyvan in a stripped-down Honda, or a living-room set. We are still not on the same sheet of music here.. Let me re-phrase again... Spontaneous, unplanned, not thought out, on a whim cool video.. 1. Johnny is flying along under his vx60 and goes.. Hey that little space between that tree would look cool on video.. I'm going for it.. 2. Johnny walks up to Josh and says "I want you to get me on video swooping that gap" 3. Josh walks up to Johnny and says "Hey man, why don't you swoop that Gap in those trees! That would make a great shot on the end of the day video". Johnny is on a 5 minute call and says "Let's go for it." Without thoroughly checking the winds, outs and landing area. 4. Johnny is at the WFFC.. In the excitement of it all decides to get some cool video of the helicopter. While he thought it out he didn't REALLY think it out. Johnny decides to go ahead risking not only himself but everyone else on that aircraft for some cool video. ------------------------------------------------ A well planned, calculated jump out of a c130 where you get some kick ass video isn't even in the same ball park as what I am saying. NOTHING is wrong with video. NOTHING is wrong with planned video. NOTHING is wrong with getting some cool shots in the process of your every day video. Not thinking, not planning, not calculating while dragging others into your death trap is BAD. It's the IDEA OF COOL VIDEO. You either get what I'm saying or you keep being stubborn and defensive yourself and ignore that the problem exists. It IS a problem. It IS killing people that had they took a but more time to think about and plan might not have made that decision. We are in a high speed, kick ass sport. Sometimes it's worth an extra brain wave to check ones self. People aren't doing that more and more these days and it's killing them. Rhino Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #48 May 2, 2005 That's a kick arse pic of Ari dude. Nicely doneYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ladyskydiver 0 #49 May 2, 2005 Great pics, Deuce!Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #50 May 3, 2005 QuoteWe are still not on the same sheet of music here.. Hey, I give up. I'm tired. And better skydivers than I will ever be keep dying, regardless of who is there to record it. I don't care about cool video. People die skydiving, even really, really good skydivers. And it makes me wonder, sometimes, why I risk it. The plane rides, really. And my friends. And what we share. And then one of us dies. And I breathe Just breathe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
