Student Rig at 0.65:1 wingloading

[mdrejhon 8]

Hi,

I am going to be jumping a student rig with 0.65:1 wingloading next weekend as part of my PFF training. (I'm 163lbs, and I'm about 185 when wearing everything, and the canopy is 288 square feet)

Considering the circumstances I am deaf and we will NOT be using radios at all, and this should technically make mis-timed flares much safer. (Not that I'll forget one! I've gone through ground school and memorized everything several times before and after class, and will do all week long)

I am just doublechecking: Are there any situations where 0.65:1 proved to be too low for a normal student rig? I'm not familiar with wingloadings for student rigs, but I hear many dropzones use something like 0.8 or thereabouts...

They won't let me jump in anything above a slight wind, so let's assume a day of slight wind or no wind.

.

[nicknitro71 0]

My wife is still a student and she jumps at 0.55.

Beside taking forever to get down she does not back up on final and lands just dandy.

Few times she got cought up in thermals and did not lose any altitude but nothing below 1000'.

I hope this helps.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[AndyMan 7]

These are excellent questions to be asking your instructor...

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[mdrejhon 8]

I will. But the instructor doesn't like to be hassled by email during the week because he's very busy. I have to do some research on my own. Then I will send a barrage of questions to my instructor when I arrive there at 8am Saturday.

Earlier, the instructor and I already talked about loading factor and he knows it's 0.65 and we both agreed that's pretty docile. I did not ask if it was unusually low.

However, if everyone (with big jump numbers and instructor ratings) says 0.65 is completely normal for a student rig, I'm not going to bother flooding him with further questions about wingloading. I almost think I ask him way too many questions -- I made the class last about 3 times longer than usual, so I have to take it easy on my instructor. Yes, 3 times longer, partly because I am deaf and it was a one-on-one tutoring session.

I'm definitely asking a bunch more important questions, but I'll hold them off until this Friday/Saturday if the questions remain important enough to ask.

We are using the "arrow on ground" method to compensate for the lack of radios due to my deafness, and we will be having a lead canopy on the upcoming jump.

[Avion 0]

Interesting, and congradulations for attempting this. O.65lbs/sqft is at the light end of normal student wingloading. It should be fine, if the winds are light <10mph. They started me on a 260 and I weigh 160 without equipment. Yours is just on size larger.

Flaring to early is a very common err. I did it alot, and so did most of the other student I saw. Maybe you can get you instructor to work out some kind of visual signal. Otherwise, I recommend you look out in front of you, pratically at the horizon, and start your flare when you feel your feet are 5-6 ft from the ground. I say 5-6 here, because if you think 10-12 then you'll probably start flaring at 30 feet.

You can sort of practice this in advance by finding an escaltor, and judging where 10-12 feet from the ground is by looking at it from the side. Then as the esclator is going down, walk quickly down holding your arms in the air, and practice flare when hit your 10-12 foot mark. This will give you a close approximation of landing a caonopy. Actually landing will be faster, but the slope will be about the same. I did this. Got a few laughs from passers by. I must have looked like a half wit, running down the esclator with my arms in the air but my first landing was faily good.

Cheers

[Ron 10]

Quote

I am just doublechecking: Are there any situations where 0.65:1 proved to be too low for a normal student rig? I'm not familiar with wingloadings for student rigs, but I hear many dropzones use something like 0.8 or thereabouts...

They won't let me jump in anything above a slight wind, so let's assume a day of slight wind or no wind.

You should be fine. The only problem would be high winds. They would make you back up....While not always dangerous, not fun.

I started at around .59 wl. On windy (15mph) days I would back up....But not bad considering where we were.

I have several hundered jumps on canopies around .75 to .80 for Demo training.

Listen to your "I"'s and you will be fine.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[phoenixlpr 0]

It`s going to be fine.

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The only problem would be high winds. They would make you back up....While not always dangerous, not fun.

I think its not an issue. Students having their own wind limit. I think their instructor can decide go or not to go for them.

[mdrejhon 8]

I actually witnessed a couple of guys backing up slightly, so I'm glad I didn't jump. I don't want a FBH landing on my first solo landing... The others were flying higher performance canopies and they still went nearly vertical floating down.

No injuries though. The worst thing that happened was people getting muddy feet. And one muddy container. It was raining almost all day Saturday, and then intermittently through Sunday. That load that went up in the sun but got caught in the rainclouds was funny. A few regulars chickened out the next load, when it became sunny again, because of that earlier fastball raincloud. They didn't want to play chicken with the weather. (And neither did my instructor either.)

Two wingsuit guys took advantage of the 45mph upperwinds. I think they were the off-zone landers

[mdrejhon 8]

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I say 5-6 here, because if you think 10-12 then you'll probably start flaring at 30 feet.

You just generated an important question I will be asking the instructor this Friday/Saturday. He told me to flare at my height (5'9"), maybe he told me that intentionally because he thinks I will flare a bit early. Or maybe it's because of the low wingloading factor.

The escalator idea is excellent, at least as a "guideline". However, I will need to take the 10-12 feet with a grain of salt until I ask my instructor for an official answer.

I have already done practice flares on my last two tandems this year that came before the PFF, so I have a general idea of the flare timing already, although it is probably different on a tandem rig versus student rig. (another important question to ask: Should flare timing be the same, slightly sooner, or slightly later?) I did notice on our 4th tandem, we flared at approximately 10 feet, I could clearly see we were higher than my standing height above the zone.

(Mind you, the instructor did a low turn during my 4th tandem due to strong winds, and he told me it was because of the strong winds, we landed safely on the pea gravel, only 2-3 meters from centre. We didn't even step forward during our landing! That low 75-to-90 degree correction turn initiated at approx 100 feet kind of scared me a little. (Might have been 150 feet) He told me NOT TO ATTEMPT THIS TURN as a student. It was an unexpected low turn that the instructor decided he needed to initiate in order to land downwind. Actually, I was anxiously pulling slightly on the opposite toggle, indicating I wanted to cancel the turn, because we were descending faster than usual! Instructor did not notice my desire to cancel the turn, he was concentrating hard on landing safely. It was just a 5 second scare for me. (I have to admit it was more scary than the fourth tandem freefall itself!). The landing was the best stand-up tandem landing I've ever had though, so all was good. It was an approximately 20 degree swing out before the turn flattened at approximately 40-50 feet above the ground. Standup landing 2-3 meters from centre of target, and directly facing downwind, no single step walked forward (although we stepped backwards two steps as the wind pulled the canopy back, before it was deflated)

At least now I know what a low 90 degree turn looks like from 100 feet, it does look dangerous. (Even though we didn't descend even nearly as fast as those swoopers I've seen) Was fun though, a brief 5 second scare, but I won't even be attempting to do this on my own for a long while yet.

[KindredSpirit 0]

I'm really light. I'm jumping 288 sq.ft. student gear loaded at about 0.45 : 1.0 without any problems.

"Kicking gravity's ass since 2003!"

[dragon2 2]

I'm 150 lbs geared up, learned on Manta 288 and Skymaster 280/230. No problem, even landed a manta once without flaring (not recommended ). I did spend a lot of time hanging in full glide against the wind, because I was allowed to jump at a certain higher wind level after a number of jumps. I could jump but not having the room to play is not that much fun as being able to do a lot of turns. But I wanted to jump those days anyway. Sometimes I got blown backwards too at altitude but I never landed backwards and I always landed on the dz (unless you count the one time I was told to "wait five secs then jump" how the %^& was I supposed to know CF guys got out so early, learned to spot for myself pretty soon after that! ).

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[dragon2 2]

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Interesting, and congradulations for attempting this. O.65lbs/sqft is at the light end of normal student wingloading.

It's not, really. We have girls that are 45 kg (125 lbs geared up) starting out on 288's, maybe a 230. A wingload of 0.45 to 1. They manage just fine (for smaller people, the harnass size may be more of a problem than the canopy size).

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[kelpdiver 2]

That's going to depend on the DZ, of course.

I was 245 out the door on a PD300 and as early as 11am the ocean winds would pick up. Doing my final AFF at close to the wind threshold (might have gone just over by landing time), I did a vertical landing. I'd hate to have been half the weight. (I then shifted to a less windy place till I finished up)

I remember another jump early in the sequence when I couldn't make any headway in the uppers to get on the right side of the runway ... was starting to think about a new plan when I got down to a nicer wind layer.

[Avion 0]

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You just generated an important question I will be asking the instructor this Friday/Saturday. He told me to flare at my height (5'9"), maybe he told me that intentionally because he thinks I will flare a bit early. Or maybe it's because of the low wingloading factor.

The escalator idea is excellent, at least as a "guideline". However, I will need to take the 10-12 feet with a grain of salt until I ask my instructor for an official answer.

During AFF they instructed me to start flaring at 10-12 feet. The first time I waited for their signal to start flaring, and did a perfect stand up landing. The second time, I flared on my own, was looking down at the ground, and started flaring at what I thought was 10-12 feet. Then, I saw I was still too high. So, I let up a little, waited little, then finished the flare. They said I started flaring at like 30 feet. This is where the looking way forward helps. Looking down or even 45 degrees down gives you a false sense of acceleration as you get close to the ground.

By looking way forward your mind can figure out when your approaching ground level better. Now, I've been flaring a little late and sinking down almost to my butt with my feet sliding across the grass then pull it back up to standing just at the finish. It's fun getting in that little turf surf

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I have already done practice flares on my last two tandems this year that came before the PFF, so I have a general idea of the flare timing already, although it is probably different on a tandem rig versus student rig. (another important question to ask: Should flare timing be the same, slightly sooner, or slightly later?) I did notice on our 4th tandem, we flared at approximately 10 feet, I could clearly see we were higher than my standing height above the zone.

(Mind you, the instructor did a low turn during my 4th tandem due to strong winds, and he told me it was because of the strong winds, we landed safely on the pea gravel, only 2-3 meters from centre. We didn't even step forward during our landing! That low 75-to-90 degree correction turn initiated at approx 100 feet kind of scared me a little. (Might have been 150 feet) He told me NOT TO ATTEMPT THIS TURN as a student. It was an unexpected low turn that the instructor decided he needed to initiate in order to land downwind. Actually, I was anxiously pulling slightly on the opposite toggle, indicating I wanted to cancel the turn, because we were descending faster than usual! Instructor did not notice my desire to cancel the turn, he was concentrating hard on landing safely. It was just a 5 second scare for me. (I have to admit it was more scary than the fourth tandem freefall itself!). The landing was the best stand-up tandem landing I've ever had though, so all was good. It was an approximately 20 degree swing out before the turn flattened at approximately 40-50 feet above the ground. Standup landing 2-3 meters from centre of target, and directly facing downwind, no single step walked forward (although we stepped backwards two steps as the wind pulled the canopy back, before it was deflated)

At least now I know what a low 90 degree turn looks like from 100 feet, it does look dangerous. (Even though we didn't descend even nearly as fast as those swoopers I've seen) Was fun though, a brief 5 second scare, but I won't even be attempting to do this on my own for a long while yet.

Tandem landings are usually much more dramatic than your typical student landing.

Cheers

BTW I just looked at you website and noticed you have some hearing ability. Maybe you can get them to hook up a radio with some kind of speaker in the helmet so you could make use of a verbal flare signal.

[skybytch 273]

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I almost think I ask him way too many questions -- I made the class last about 3 times longer than usual, so I have to take it easy on my instructor.

You don't have to take it easy on anyone that you are paying to teach you how to skydive. An instructors job is to teach students. If it requires spending 8 hours working with one person when other people "get it" in 4 hours, so be it. I'm assuming your instructor knew you were deaf before starting to work with you; I'd also assume that s/he expected and doesn't have a problem with the extra time it's going to take for you to get all the information you need to get. If my assumptions are incorrect, I'd suggest a different instructor.

Regardless of how many questions you need to ask get them all answered - preferably by your instructor - before you jump. The only stupid question is the one you didn't ask...

[Frenchy68 0]

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Regardless of how many questions you need to ask get them all answered - preferably by your instructor - before you jump. The only stupid question is the one you didn't ask...

I second that. The other option shouldn't be an option. It's too painful.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[mdrejhon 8]

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BTW I just looked at you website and noticed you have some hearing ability. Maybe you can get them to hook up a radio with some kind of speaker in the helmet so you could make use of a verbal flare signal.

Although I do not have the hearing necessary to decipher the full spectrum of voice, a "flare tone" may be a pratical signal. However, I'm close enough to the ground that they can just wave a signal at the landing area.

Though the 0.65 wing loading should make a missed flare very survivable though, especially if I know PLF. (Not that I will miss the flare...)

Good ideas though, they haven't decided what the flare signal will be yet.

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I'm assuming your instructor knew you were deaf before starting to work with you;

Yes, that's right. We communicated through keyboard, blackboard and laptop, without talking. I do not recommend speaking & lipreading for these situations, because of the higher error/repeat rate experienced. Keyboard is actually faster than speaking for me, and I do type over 100 words per minute.
.

[phoenixlpr 0]

There is a hype over the WL here. You can see its a nice source of confusion for beginners.

I`m not sure if its a good idea to register or read here for a subA or A class(USPA) jumper. I can feel they are collecting fear and confusion here.

Don`t take offend, but recently "skygods" are giving full detailed description about everything instead of the short and polite redirect to own JM/coach/instructor.

[billvon 3,107]

>Don`t take offend, but recently "skygods" are giving full detailed
> description about everything instead of the short and polite redirect to
> own JM/coach/instructor.

Anyone who goes to this board for advice should read the very first post on this board - "warning about advice given here." An excerpt:

"Therefore, it is imperative that people reading this board do NOT treat the advice given here as authoritative."

This is a board dedicated to (among other things) giving people advice. A lot of people have gotten a lot of good (sometimes lifesaving) advice from this board. While there is mostly good advice here, some of it is not so good. Treat such advice accordingly.

[mdrejhon 8]

Actually, I feel I can make my own forum judgements. I should add I am a former moderator at AVSFORUM at www.avsforum.com/avs-vb (7,500 posts), and a current moderator at BlackBerryForums at www.BlackBerryForums.com (3,000 posts), so I can tell the garbage apart from the gems.

Of course, my judgement can be wrong, so I do ask my instructor questions. I know that my instructor advice is number 1, and overrides the advice here in this forum or even "Skydiving: The Parachutist's Handbook" that I read through before my skydiving class. Even my instructor reminded me of that fact.

At opening altitude, he made it plainly clear that I have 22 seconds to save my life, and he does not want me guessing who is correct during my EP's (him, the book, the forum, etc)

I was just determining whether 0.65:1 was normal for a typical student rig. I've already talked to him about this loading factor (we used the calculator together and came to the same 0.65 value). We are at least aware of it, that it is docile, and he did not say it was too low (I just did not ask if it was "too low"). I was just getting further opinion about this loading factor, to see if I needed to revisit this topic with the instructor.

While my instructor has been pretty good so far, instructors aren't infallible. Don't forget that other instructor that started someone off on a 1.33:1 loading factor! It's good to check for backup advice to verify if a topic needs to be revisted with the instructor...

.

[riggerrob 643]

0.65 is on the light end of the acceptable range of student wing-loadings.
You may spout all the numbers you like, but the bottom line on winds is "stop dropping students when the Manta 288s start backing up."

[mdrejhon 8]

Right. I was on a wind hold last weekend.

Looking forward to blue skies next weekend!

[chutem 0]

My first jumps were at about .65:1 in Eloy AZ. Was not a problem, slower is better at this point in the game. My wife is about 30 pounds lighter than I and she started on the same size canopy the same day, again not a problem. Keep reading and posting questions, just watch out for bad advise. (especially from my low time point of view) One thing I've noticed is bad advise gets pointed out pretty quick here. You just have to wait for a number of responces, and as always check with your instructor before following advice from the web.
James

[mdrejhon 8]

I jumped 8 times in one weekend (completed most of the PFF program). Weather was great, and there were not nearly as many weather/wind holds. [Edit: Here's the CLICKY that tells you a summary about my 8 jumps.]

Almost all my landings were standup! 6.5 of them actually. (1 butt landing, plus 0.5 because I briefly lost balance and then regained as the wind-blown canopy pulled me back up whereupon I immediately collapsed it to prevent it dragging me.)

Even one pea gravel landing too, 3 meters from center! (Unfortunately, that's also my sole butt landng!)

However, there was a lot of near-vertical landings into the wind and two slow backwards landing during my flare (one standup, one soft butt landing). So my feet got a little bit sore after the weekend. My feet are not used to landing shock.

I noticed my landings were slightly more comfortable when I had more forward motion. I guess when they downsize me to 0.8 or 0.9, I'll be able to fight the wind better and land more comfortably during those. But that may mean slightly harder landings during vertical descent (strong winds), I'm now wondering if my feet can handle that situation.

Since I started off at 0.65, and because I hear 1:1 is a frequently recommended wingloading for a "first rig" purchase, I guess I may have to start off lower like 0.8 or 0.9 or keep renting parachutes longer... After 25 jumps, I think I am shopping for a used rig (after I elict advice from my DZ...)

I'm NOT too terribly anxious to even go to 1:1 as a result of my experiences... Don't want to break my feet in strong winds. Any opinions? How did students who started off on a low wingloading (0.65 and less) get to 1:1 wingloading? 0.1 increments?

[Edit: I WILL ask my instructor this weekend. But I want to get a bunch of opinions as supplementary info.]

[Orange1 0]

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I'm NOT too terribly anxious to even go to 1:1 as a result of my experiences... Don't want to break my feet in strong winds. Any opinions? How did students who started off on a low wingloading (0.65 and less) get to 1:1 wingloading? 0.1 increments?

I started off on SL at a DZ where all student canopies were 280, which put me on about a 0.5 w/l ... AFF at a different DZ on a 230 (0.6), currently down to a 210 for the conversion (to throw-out PC) jumps (0.67) and will be graduating down to a 170, which will put me at around 0.83 and which my instructors at the moment think is a good first size for me and which I'm happy with ... with all the stuff I've read on these forums making me definitely prefer to lean on the side of caution.

btw i've always found those near-vertical descents much easier to land and softer on my feet than no-wind landings (which I could stand up fine on the 280 but am finding a bit more difficult now - one of the reasons I'll also be happy to stop at a 170 for now)

I found this a useful article, you may too:
http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/choosing1.pdf One of the reasons that I don't want to go down to 1:1 yet is that will mean I'll be jumping a 150 or smaller, and this article helps explain why that may not be such a good idea just yet.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.