should TIME IN SPORT also become a requirement instead of jumpnumbers alone..

[airtwardo 7]

I think the key here is to advise them in a nice calm manner and they will avoid at least some mistakes along their way. To do that one must have very good people skills, not just “time in sports”, “jump numbers”, “ratings” and loud voice.

Zhenya~ I think that's originally what was happening until the 'same old arguments' came out...

What are we supposed to do pat their butts, kiss 'em on the forehead AND save their lives?!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[JumpRu 14]

Last time I checked minimum jump age was 18 years and those new jumpers are all adults. They can make their own decision especially when provided with good information. We trust them to vote, we let them join the army, why we refuse to let them make their own choice in skydiving? Provide good information, advise them that is really all we can do. After all they are all licensed jumpers (not students). That is all I’m saying.

[airtwardo 7]

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Last time I checked minimum jump age was 18 years and those new jumpers are all adults. They can make their own decision especially when provided with good information. We trust them to vote, we let them join the army, why we refuse to let them make their own choice in skydiving? Provide good information, advise them that is really all we can do. After all they are all licensed jumpers (not students). That is all I’m saying.

Yeah vote... but we don't let them drink because they haven't seen enough bad decisions to know when they're making one that might kill them or someone else....



I'm just sayin'~

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[davelepka 4]

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Last time I checked minimum jump age was 18 years and those new jumpers are all adults. They can make their own decision especially when provided with good information

That's bullshit, and you know it. The kid that jumped a wingsuit without his legsraps on was provided with good information. In fact, he was turned away by a very experienced wingsuit instructor due to his low jump numbers. Despite this, the kid just went to another DZ, and jumped a wingsuit anyway. Twice, and he didn't survive the second.

We wouldn't even be having this discussion if low timers listened to the words of wisdom they're provided, but they don't.

So you're 18 (not you), and want to do what you want to do? Great, you're old enough to drive, so you can go do it it at another DZ.

If you want to act like a jerk-off you're not going to do it where I jump. I don't have the time to waste standing around the LZ waiting for the helicopter to come pick you up because the whambulence can't get you there fast enough. I don't have time to wait for the coroner to come pick your body, and for the cops to rope off the LZ and pick their noses for 72 hours. I don't have time to drive to a DZ further from my house because your surviving relatives sued the DZ, and put them out of business with enormous legal fees.

I jump in Ohio, where we have a long cold winter. When it's warm enough to jump, I still have two kids and a day job keeping me away from the DZ. When the planets alaign, and I'm on the DZ and the sun is shining, all I have time to do is jump.

Yes this is America, and you're free to go anywhere you please. If you come to my DZ, I'll be watching you like a hawk, and I'm not shy about speaking up if I see something I don't like. You can protest all you want, but in the end I'm going to win.


(You know all the referneces to 'you' weren't really 'you'. I can see that you've been jumping for 9 years, so you must be older than 18. It's a theoretical 'you', the average 18 year old)

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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Last time I checked minimum jump age was 18 years and those new jumpers are all adults. They can make their own decision especially when provided with good information. We trust them to vote, we let them join the army, why we refuse to let them make their own choice in skydiving? Provide good information, advise them that is really all we can do. After all they are all licensed jumpers (not students). That is all I’m saying.

Ummm....

Because history has shown that they don't make good choices??
Read the incidents forum.

Because they haven't seen enough to fully realize the consequences of a bad choice??
Look at how many quit the sport after a malfunction and reserve ride, minor injury, or seeing someone else get seriously hurt or dead.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[danielcroft 2]

People want to make their own choices but don't want to accept responsibility for those choices. If someone ends up dead or injured, those choices affect many more people than just the jumper in question. Family, friends, people at the DZ, the DZ itself as was already mentioned.

People are welcome to their personal choices until those choices negatively affect other people. Choosing to do dumb stuff, irrespective of a person's age does just that.

[JumpRu 14]

If one is doing unsafe things, especially dangerous to others then DZ management should probably deal with this person regardless of his age, gender, time in sport or number of jumps, don’t you think?

[tetra316 0]

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If one is doing unsafe things, especially dangerous to others then DZ management should probably deal with this person regardless of his age, gender, time in sport or number of jumps, don’t you think?

And around and around we go. You were the one saying that they are adults and can make their own decisions. You also stated that it's the old farts that keep wanting to stop newbies from progressing.

The problem is the less experience you have the less you recognize when something is dangerous. You just think,hey man, those people don't know my skills, I know what I'm doing, **** off. And they will also find some dz at which to do whatever it is they want to do simply because this sport has yet to reach the babysitting stage, which was discussed earlier. And I pray it never does.

[Rstanley0312 1]

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If one is doing unsafe things, especially dangerous to others then DZ management should probably deal with this person regardless of his age, gender, time in sport or number of jumps, don’t you think?

And around and around we go. You were the one saying that they are adults and can make their own decisions. You also stated that it's the old farts that keep wanting to stop newbies from progressing.

The problem is the less experience you have the less you recognize when something is dangerous. You just think,hey man, those people don't know my skills, I know what I'm doing, **** off. And they will also find some dz at which to do whatever it is they want to do simply because this sport has yet to reach the babysitting stage, which was discussed earlier. And I pray it never does.

+1 I will also add that yes I had older instructors and still have them as "older" mentors but I also have many young and talented mentors that started jumping way before I did that I listen to and if they know my skill level and tell me I am not ready I will listen. What is so wrong or hard about that.

'A fool learns from his mistakes, but a truly wise man learns from the mistakes of others'

- Otto von Bismarck

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[skydance1954 0]

Jump numbers alone should never be considered the only yardstick of skill and competence. It didn't work in the '70s and sure as hell doesn't work now. Time in sport, currency, skill evaluations as given during courses, number of jumps, freefall time and displays of common sense should all be factors taken into consideration for whatever task the candidate is choosing to do today.

Our job as the DZ instructors, safety officers and owners is to shepherd the young ones through the danger zones as best we can. If they choose not to listen - well, we can try harder.

Mike Ashley
D-18460
Canadian A-666

[billvon 3,076]

>If one is doing unsafe things, especially dangerous to others then DZ
>management should probably deal with this person regardless of his age,
>gender, time in sport or number of jumps, don’t you think?

The DZO isn't usually the one spotting the loads, organizing the bigways, watching the landings and jumping with everyone on the DZ. WE are the first line of defense, not some guy with a DZO hat on.

Sure, in some cases, the DZO has to get involved. But 99% of the time that's because an experienced jumper/instructor/S+TA/organizer/spotter etc tells them that some guy is a problem. And in most cases the problem can be solved before it gets to that point.

[rhys 0]

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..for "advanced" disciplines, like wingsuit, camera-flying etc!?

I voted skill level.

There should always be prerequesates of skill level and understanding, but time alone casts no real shadow of what has been learned by someone.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[argyle 0]

We should remember that this discussion is really about requirements for doing things other than simple jumps and straight-in landings. The wingsuit example is a good one. I don't think a student should be subject to an AFFI with 9 months in the sport, no matter what.

A couple of years ago, a friend of mine seriously hurt himself by doing something stupid. It prompted me to write Are You Competent? about competence vs. skill. It's not great literature, but the idea hasn't changed.

There are a lot of people who complain about rules and requirements. Maybe skydiving should be the right of every person, but personally I would like there to be some order provided by those who have survived to know better. I think that time in the sport is hugely iimportant.

[feuergnom 29]

just read your old post - it's a good read and one of the gems that so often get lost

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[rhys 0]

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I think that 10 hours of youtube and 500 DZ.com posts qualify for a time in the sport requirment...especially for wingsuits and camera flyers...

Good call! Plenty of that type of guru 'up in here'.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[JumpRu 14]

Like I said, safety issue is one thing. If some one did something that put you or some on else in dangerous situation (cut you off on landing, did not provide enough separation) then by all means you have a right to speak up. Go to DZO or S&TA or just talk to that person. I think it is important to be cool about this, because most of those things just happen from time to time… I’ve only seen one person who did something like this on purpose and he was “old timer” with several thousand jumps, pilot license and etc.
We were new jumpers back then so I did not say anything but other instructors who were on the same load directly asked him was he part of our group or he was doing his own thing? His answer was that we were never in any danger
But this is not my business what other license jumpers doing on the jump, what is the experience level and how it matches what they are trying to do. As long as they have their own airspace and comply with BSR it is really not my concern. If I know them I may suggest something or express my concern but since they are licensed it is their choice to continue or not.

[piisfish 140]

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I voted skill level.

There should always be prerequesates of skill level and understanding, but time alone casts no real shadow of what has been learned by someone.

and who would evaluate the SKILLZ ?
the DZO (or other "responsible" person) or the jumper himself ?
you can see where I'm going....

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[riggerrob 643]

Numbers are a crude way to measure experience.
Experience comes form making mistakes.
Only a BROAD RANGE OF EXPERIENCE will keep you alive.
Jumpers from big DZs rightfully snub their noses at "country bumpkins" - from single-Cessna DZs - because they lack the experience to fly safely with large numbers of airplanes, canopies etc.

But, jumpers at single-Cessna DZs laugh at "Twin Otter babies" who have never jumped a Cessna ... from 3,000 feet ... into a tight landing area ... etc.

As for older jumpers imposing limits on younger jumpers ... it is because I had carried too many stretchers off the DZ before 1980. And I frequently call young jumpers to task when they remind me of a mistake I made - back in 1981 - and I bore them with tales about why I limp.

VARIETY is the key.
Young jumper scan ignore my advice about hypoxia when they have more time in a low pressure chamber than me.
Young jumper scan ignore my advice about spotting after they have missed the country more times than me (once).
Young jumpers can ignore my advice about flaring after they have sprained their thumbs more times than me (twice).
Young jumpers can ignore my advice about cutawys when they have more reserve rides than me (I quit counting after 20).
Young tandem instructors can whine about heavy students after they have carried more rucksacks, rifles and snowshoes out the door than me.
Young jumpers can whine about how uncomfortable airplane "X" is after they have jumped more different types of aircraft than me (30).

[fercie 0]

I think time PUT INTO the sport is more important than time IN the sport. Someone with 1000 jumps in 3 years that does quality jumps, spends time talking to instructers, pays attention to the skydiving activity when he is on the ground etc might have put just as much time or more into the sport as someone with 1000 jumps in 15 years that makes it to the DZ once in awhile, gets a couple jumps and leaves. Everyone's skydiving career is different with different experiences that amount to different levels of experience, even for people with similar skydiving stats (jump numbers, time in sport, etc).

Fear is not knowing.

[billvon 3,076]

>But this is not my business what other license jumpers doing on the jump, what
>is the experience level and how it matches what they are trying to do. As long
>as they have their own airspace and comply with BSR it is really not my concern.

Then I guess we're going to just have a difference of opinion on that. If a friend of mine is doing something that will likely result in his injury or death I fell that it _is_ my concern. Not because he will hurt me but because he may hurt himself, and I don't want to see that happen to my friends.

[JumpRu 14]

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Then I guess we're going to just have a difference of opinion on that. If a friend of mine is doing something that will likely result in his injury or death I fell that it _is_ my concern. Not because he will hurt me but because he may hurt himself, and I don't want to see that happen to my friends.

So am I (please don’t make me look like a bad guy here

[airtwardo 7]

That is a personal choice and we just have to assume that licensed jumper knows what he is doing.

No we don't...inquire & never assume.

I saw a gear rep packing a rig at a boogie a while back, didn't look right to me so I inquired, then showed him how doing something another way might lessen the chance of a malfunction.

He wasn't 'wrong' and I wasn't 'right'...I just 'knew' something he didn't because I was aware of problems with what he was doing 25 years ago.

The thing I like about the sport is how we watch out for each other, usually without being asked to.

Us grumpy old farts know the youngins don't like to be told what's what, it's only natural...but we do it anyway...no charge!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[JumpRu 14]

Oh, packing is great example :) There are many different ways to pack main and some of those methods look like a death wish to me :) You can always show what is better and in most cases it is helpful but some folks (Including myself) stick with what worked for them

[davelepka 4]

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But this is not my business what other license jumpers doing on the jump, what is the experience level and how it matches what they are trying to do. As long as they have their own airspace and comply with BSR it is really not my concern. If I know them I may suggest something or express my concern but since they are licensed it is their choice to continue or not.

In my case, that is not true. It IS my business as I am a staff member of the DZ, and it is my best interst to protect the DZ from undue exposure to lawsuits and the media, and to protect the contunuity of business during the jumping day.

If you are not an employee or owner of a DZ, it may not be your business, but you have to ask yourself what impact an incident will have on the DZ, how that will effect your future patronage of the DZ, and what your relationship is with the staff and ownership of the DZ and how an indicent would effect them.

[JumpRu 14]

Great, good for you, you are in a position where you can make great impact on everyone’s safety! In my post I was more concern about people who really have no business to interfere with other people jumps, have no communication skills to explain in non-confrontational way what they have to say and obviously do more harm then good even when they have something valuable to offer. For example: I’ve just done something wrong, lets say less then perfect landing (sometimes this happens to the best of us) and all of the sudden some dude jumps at me yelling something about how “I’m going to bounce and how he don’t want to miss his jump because of me” well, you can guess what kind of response that dude will get most of the time :) More positive approach usually works better with people.

I remember, once, couple years ago I was sitting at the DZ after my jump, had really nothing to do and I saw a jumper with maybe 200 jumps, I knew the guy a little and by his look I got the impression that he did not jump in a while and have a little nerves (really nothing wrong with that). He was doing solo jump and had no one to check his gear, so I offered to check it. That time I discovered that PC was completely collapsed…
Over the years I’ve found 4 or 5 misrouted chest straps and many other minor things,
but you won’t see me checking everyone’s gear on every load, most people don’t like then some one is messing with their stuff. Ultimately every licensed jumper is responsible for his own safety.