Tandem Incident

[jdunbar 0]

What is it with online forums and aggro? It is not restricted to DZ by any stretch of the imagination but some of the posts on this thread are down right rude. If you were in person having the same chat would you respond in such a dismissive and argumentative fashion? Doubt it, sometimes, no MOST times, people ask questions in good faith or wish to learn! If you re-read what you have posted and still think you were responding in a useful and helpful tone then good for you, otherwise perhaps a different tack is in order? Right, down from the soap box... Next.

[mjosparky 4]

If you can, download this program and run it a few times. It will show what happens with slow fallers and fast fallers in the same wind conditions.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Rstanley0312 1]

So that actually shows a "floaty" person out first is not a bad thing.... I think I did it right. John Kallend.... thanks again for yet another cool teaching tool.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[skyrider 0]

No question, the Tandem master needs to be retrained, or double checked by a IE! I'd ask at the DZ, if an S&TA has looked into the incedent!

[normiss 858]

I'd imagine that's happening as we speak.

[jdunbar 0]

I only just logged back in to the forum (i only come here now and again) and found this PM. Thought I would add it to the public debate. I am not sure why I have been sent a personal message when I was responding broadly and publicly.

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let your mother or father or best friend go jump with a tandem instructor who performed as stated.

Soap box's are for people like yourself who choose to say nothing while representing themselves as nothing.(IE) your profile.

My opinion Is just that with one exception. I am qualified by at least one Tandem rig manufacture to judge the competency of Tandem Instructors as a Tandem Examinor. Being that no specific rig is named in the thread I have only expressed my thoughts on how the incident should be handled.

Because of your reply i can only believe You must not understand the implications of the incident as it was relayed in the original post.

Tandem Skydiving is more than money in someones pocket. It involves the life of someone who believes the instructor has the training,skill and mental capacity to protect their life at all cost.

There is no room for exceptions!!!! It is my job to assure the people I train as tandem instructors either have what it takes or I will fail them and inform the manufacture of their inability's. As well I will sit one down on any DZ if I feel they are unsafe.

If you have any questions about my post that might enhanse the conversation I will address them in the public forum or PM.

Chris Whitley
UPT Tandem Instructor Examiner
4200+ Tandems
200+ Tandem Evaluation Jumps
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The lack of info in my profile is not a cowardly act, just one of laziness, i have yet to get around to it. I think my opinion that people can be rude in online forums stands irrespective of how many jumps and ratings I have. It was a comment on behaviour, not skydiving.

The only thing i can add that I feel would benefit the poster is that plurals don't require apostrophes.

[airtwardo 7]

Couple things~

~I re-read his post and I gotta tell ya, the reply was both useful & helpful...when talking about maybe saving a life, who gives a shit about the 'tone' of the message.

~Bad form to post private messages publicly.


Your Mileage May Vary!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Tiger6513 0]

Thank you for the info, I am a visual learner and this helps.

Travis Roy Foundation. At very least its a tax write off

[tombuch 0]

Quote

so I'm a very low jump number student on a school bus sized canopy....maybe even a small guy...."floaty".
Small dz, Cessna, keeping costs down, one pass for all 3 to exit.
You still want that guy out first?

Yes. Absolutely.

The Tandem Instructor can keep track of anybody that gets out before her, but has no control over what happens after she exits. If you put the slug parachutes and higher opening out before the tandem, the TI simply deals with it by allowing separation, and possibly opening higher, then watching for canopy traffic. That's easy for an experienced instructor to do.

The alternative is to put the inexperienced jumpers out after the tandem and hope that they really wait 10 seconds, don't slide all over the sky, are aware of where the tandem is, and aware that the tandem might open higher or lower than planned, and aware that the tandem might have a problem with the drogue and may need to open quickly. That's expecting way too much from an untrained and potentially inexperienced jumper.

A tandem pair is a target with no ability to get out of the way. There should be nobody and nothing following that could in any way jeopardize the student safety. The instructor has more than enough to keep track of without wondering what's overhead.

That the new tandem instructor in this thread allowed an inexperienced jumper to exit after her raises a red flag even before the freefall problems.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[hallux 0]

i love how you guys took the light off a potentially serious tandem situation and turned this into a kangaroo court about how he shouldnt exit after the tandem. Apparently he made the right choice since the TI opened lower than him. HAHA
I'm just glad you guys havent started dragging the DZ through the mud yet like you would if it was some other DZ's.

Maybe the tandem rating is too easy to get? why dont we start a thread in instructors forum talking about that easy ass rating? Shouldnt a tandem rating be harder than AFF? Afterall you are directly resposible for a tandem student. An AFF has some personal responsibility. Or maybe everyone should show how smart they are by continuing to belittle the new guy with 33 jumps

[Andy9o8 2]

Quote

i love how you guys took the light off a potentially serious tandem situation and turned this into a kangaroo court about how he shouldnt exit after the tandem. Apparently he made the right choice since the TI opened lower than him. HAHA
I'm just glad you guys havent started dragging the DZ through the mud yet like you would if it was some other DZ's.

Maybe the tandem rating is too easy to get? why dont we start a thread in instructors forum talking about that easy ass rating? Shouldnt a tandem rating be harder than AFF? Afterall you are directly resposible for a tandem student. An AFF has some personal responsibility. Or maybe everyone should show how smart they are by continuing to belittle the new guy with 33 jumps

You're overreacting. Nobody was belittling the OP. Someone raised the issue in what I thought was a reasonable fashion. When the OP responded that he, as a newbie, was just doing what he was told to do by the DZO, he was simply counseled as to what the safety protocol should be for his future reference. If anything, the tone of criticism throughout the thread on that issue is mainly directed toward the DZO and the TI for allowing that to happen.

[airtwardo 7]

Maybe the tandem rating is too easy to get? why don't we start a thread in instructors forum talking about that easy ass rating? Shouldn't a tandem rating be harder than AFF? After-all you are directly responsible for a tandem student. An AFF has some personal responsibility. Or maybe everyone should show how smart they are by continuing to belittle the new guy with 33 jumps

Weird thing this Internet huh?
Two people can interpret the exact same message quite differently.
I figure it isn't face to face discussion where tone & manner are generally more apparent.

Here it's keyboard bangin' usually by a bunch of jumpers that wouldn't list typing skills at their best quality...brief & to the point is good. Panties in bunch for no 'please & thank you' is silly. We're on the same team folks, let's not message drift by wasting time & bandwidth (like I am) questioning manners.

That Said~
You have an interesting & valuable point regarding TI ratings.
I strongly concur, so much so that I gave up my TI rating some years back because my motivation was starting to wane, and as such, I felt my skills were beginning thin out to as well.
Honest self-assessment~
On my worst day I was better than a few of the meat slingers I see here & there at commercial DZ's.
How they got a rating baffles me & I wonder sometimes if the whole TIE thing has changed that much since I qualified?

Got any brief input as to changes you might recommend?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

...Apparently he made the right choice since the TI opened lower than him. HAHA

You may want to read post # 27.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[jdunbar 0]

I care. So that is one. Perhaps I am alone but I think you can be supportive and informative whilst being polite. My post wasn't actually directed at the post before me specifically anyways, a touch over sensitive in the PM, perhaps you are right with the poor form in posting the PM but I was just a little taken back by someone taking me aside in the cyber sense to give me their two-cents when I wasn't talking about or to them. I think the general rule that forums are great for chat and DZs are great for actual advice (obviously from the right people) however in both arenas if someone is bothered enough to ask a question then they you should be given a quantum of repect.

[riggerrob 643]

" ... On my worst day I was better than a few of the meat slingers I see here & there at commercial DZ's.
How they got a rating baffles me & I wonder sometimes if the whole TIE thing has changed that much since I qualified? ..."

.....................................................................................................

Tandem Examiner is far from an easy job.
Once a candidate arrives - with all the appropriate paperwork in hand - you only have two or three days to assess their personality.
We all know ways of faking paperwork.
Hah!
Hah!
TEs need to asses candidates basic competence in the air and assess how quickly they learn a new system.
TEs also have to guess at how the candidates personality will change six days or six months or six years down the road.
Try getting a straight answer to that question from a long-serving Psychiatrist!
Hah!
Hah!
Some over-achieving TI candidates "ace" the course, but forget most a week later.
Some only shave, etc. for the course, but the next weekend are back to their old bad habits of jumping hung-over, pulling low, etc.
Some get bored after a few months and invent new ways to hurt themselves or their students.
The ideal TI candidates struggles through the course, but forces himself to steadily improve over the next few years.
Some candidates mean well, but get distracted and get out of shape over the winter and return half as strong the next summer and slowly deteriorate.

How is a Tandem Examiner supposed to predict behaviour that few candidates will honestly admit to themselves?????

Rob Warner
Strong Tandem Examiner

[timmyfitz 0]

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Once a candidate arrives - with all the appropriate paperwork in hand - you only have two or three days to assess their personality.

Quote

TEs also have to guess at how the candidates personality will change six days or six months or six years down the road.

Quote

How is a Tandem Examiner supposed to predict behaviour that few candidates will honestly admit to themselves?????

I don't think it is the job of the examiner to judge a candidate on their personality or predict their future behavior. They are judged on whether they have met the criteria set forth to become a TI. If the TI turns out to be an asshat, then that would be the job of the DZO to judge the TI's "future" behavior.

Is there something in the TI training manuals that explains how to judge a candidate on their personality? I haven't read those in several years so I don't know.

[airtwardo 7]

I don't think it is the job of the examiner to judge a candidate on their personality or predict their future behavior. They are judged on whether they have met the criteria set forth to become a TI.


***

The positive personality & possible detrimental future behaviour thing is important, and should be an integral part of the criteria.

IMO something a consciences TE evaluates as carefully as technical skills...and rightfully so, just because one has met all the requirements on 'paper' should not automatically qualify them to be entrusted with another persons life.

Can't walk into any major airline with a logbook & a handful of ratings and expect them to trust you with passengers lives...at that level there's full time professionals lookin' into a prospects hard-drive.

We have to depend on the TE as the first line of defense in the weeding out process.

Two guys were 'refunded & walked', halfway through day 1 of my TI course 22 years ago.
Both were good skydivers but the required level of responsibility was likely lacking considering the level of maturity being displayed from the outset.

Slap & tickle, laugh & giggle have absolutely no place in that setting. Consequent immediate removal was not only justifiable but served to hammer home to the rest of us that overall professionalism isn't optional. Unlike throwin' a drogue it's a skill that can't be taught.

Why waste time, money and possibly gettin' somebody hurt or killed pushing them through the pipeline for DZO evaluation?

I know earlier in the year, a full-time TI was fortunately refused his request to return to the rotation following hospitalization for a suicide attempt...couple weeks later another attempt tragically succeeded.

This individual was a good skydiver and had every license & rating to prove it, but considering personality problems...would ya want your wife or mother strapped to him?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[airtwardo 7]

How is a Tandem Examiner supposed to predict behaviour that few candidates will honestly admit to themselves?????

Rob Warner
Strong Tandem Examiner

***

No doubt posed as rhetorical, but I'll address it anyway.

It's obviously an intuitive part of the process, and another illustration on how both the 'art & science' are of equal importance for a TI-E.

Most certainly a difficult 'job' on many levels that spotlights failure with an often catastrophic event down the road...far away from the E's influence or control.

I for one understand the responsibility guys like you accept and have nothing but respect for your commitment.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Riggerrob's predecessor for that area did just that in one case I know of. When asked for a course he told the guy he would need an official transcript of his criminal record. No one knows for sure but a birdie had whispered in his ear something about previous sex crimes. No rating was ever given.

[diablopilot 2]

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I don't think it is the job of the examiner to judge a candidate on their personality or predict their future behavior.

Looking at it another way. A tandem Instructor is a representative of the organizations he/she is certified by, in the USA, that's the USPA, and manufacturer(s).

I'd say that it is exactly the job of the examiner to judge the suitability of the candidate, both in skills and character.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[timmyfitz 0]

Quote

Quote

I don't think it is the job of the examiner to judge a candidate on their personality or predict their future behavior.

Looking at it another way. A tandem Instructor is a representative of the organizations he/she is certified by, in the USA, that's the USPA, and manufacturer(s).

I'd say that it is exactly the job of the examiner to judge the suitability of the candidate, both in skills and character.

Character, yes. Personality, not so much. Judging someone on a trait that is very subjective from one person to the next is not part of the criteria.

There are a few people that I choose not to associate with because we have conflicting personalities. I would hope that I could judge said person on the criteria set forth and not because I don't personally get along with them.

[diablopilot 2]

Agreed.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[billvon 3,078]

>Character, yes. Personality, not so much. Judging someone on a trait
>that is very subjective from one person to the next is not part of the
>criteria.

I think both are pretty subjective and pretty important. I won't go into detailed examples, but I can think of several cases where a TM's personality both got in the way of doing his job well and exposed a DZO to legal liability. One was a cop with a clean record.

I agree that making that call is difficult though.