Tandem Incident

[Tomcat933 0]

One of my friends from college wanted to come out and do a Tandem at my C-182 dropzone today, so i took her to do it. We were on the first load of the day, the tandem was going to exit first and i was going to exit and do a solo ten seconds after they left. I was in the door as they exited, they rolled over on exit, and in the ten seconds i watched them before i dove out myself, the drogue wasn't deployed. I dove out, did my solo and pulled at 3500. I looked around for the tandem, expecting them to be somewhere behind me and at least a thousand feet above me. Finally i looked down, and they were about a hundred feet off the ground under a reserve. I landed, a little panicky that they might be hurt. Both of them were fine, but i found out that the instructor couldn't get the drogue out, and didn't find the reserve handle until about two seconds before the cyprus fired, which it did. How do you guys feel about this instructor? It was only her third tandem with a paying customer, although she has over fifteen hundred jumps. I saw the pack after the incident, and the drogue handle was visible and the DZO grabbed it and it popped right out. Scary experience overall, so glad neither of them got hurt.

[Tomcat933 0]

I just can't figure out why it took so long for her to find the reserve handle when she couldn't get the drogue out.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

The first error was to let a junior jumper exit after them. I would never let someone with 33 jumps exit after me.
As far as the TI's competence otherwise, there were certainly errors made, but it sounds like she opened the parachute and kept your friend safe. Skydiving is dangerous. You should know that by now.

[Andy9o8 2]

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I just can't figure out why it took so long for her to find the reserve handle when she couldn't get the drogue out.

Well, we're missing something pretty important here: her version of the events. Any idea what that might be?

[davelepka 4]

There have been other stories like yours, but there was a slight difference. The other story goes like this - the tandem exits, the TI forgets to deploy the drouge. The TI tries to open the main at 5500' but since the drouge (aka pilot chute) is still in the pouch, nothing happens. The pair is travelling at tandem terminal (maybe 150 or 160) so by the time the TI realizes the problem, and gets the reserve handle pulled, the reserve opening can be quite low, even close to Cypres fire (or in some cases, the Cypres does fire and save the pair).

The difference in your story is that the TI claimed to not be able to find the drouge. In this case, the SOP is to dump the reserve immediately, so you can get it out before you reach terminal (remember 150? 160?).

If the TIs story is correct, she spent the entire freefall looking for the drouge, and only went for the resreve at a very low altitude. Aside from going against the tandem SOP of dumping the reserve immediately, she also proceeded with the freefall right past her designated pull altitude without dumping the reserve. If that's what happened, then she should probably think twice about being a TI.

My guess is that she forgot to dump the drouge, and didn't realize until pull time. She probably reacted in a reasonable amount of time, and got the reserve pulled. If that's what happened, then I don't know. That's a pretty big mistake, and then to lie about it doesn't really help her case.

[Tomcat933 0]

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I just can't figure out why it took so long for her to find the reserve handle when she couldn't get the drogue out.

Well, we're missing something pretty important here: her version of the events. Any idea what that might be?

I know for sure that she claimed to not be able to find the drogue, and i know for sure that the cyprus fired. I didn't press for any more information, since I'm a far less experienced skydiver than her. As for following her out, I've already done it twice on her practice tandems with a certified skydiver as a passenger, and i gave her plenty of room both times, waiting at least ten seconds after she left. Both she and the DZO felt confident that i would stay out of her way, and therefore i don't feel like it was bad judgement on her part to let me exit after.

[riggerrob 643]

Tandem SOP is to have junior jumpers exit ahead of the tandem.
The normal exit sequence is: belly-flyers (largest to smallest group), free-flyers, high-pullers (CF and AFF), followed by tandems.
The only people who are allowed to exit after tandems are birdmen.

[Tomcat933 0]

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Tandem SOP is to have junior jumpers exit ahead of the tandem.
The normal exit sequence is: belly-flyers (largest to smallest group), free-flyers, high-pullers (CF and AFF), followed by tandems.
The only people who are allowed to exit after tandems are birdmen.

I just do what i'm told. The DZO and tandem instructor told me to exit after, so thats what I did. I'm way too inexperienced to question what the DZO and instructors tell me to do. I was nowhere near them in the air though, I waited at least ten seconds, and the plane did a sort of right angle turn before i exited because the spot was long.

[skypuppy 1]

Why would cf jumpers pulling outside the door exit before tandems?

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[normiss 893]

Dealing with an unruly passenger?
Harness movement?

Those are the first two things that come to mind.
I've had students grab my arms out of sheer terror.
Humans are pretty strong when they're scared.

[Tiger6513 0]

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Tandem SOP is to have junior jumpers exit ahead of the tandem.
The normal exit sequence is: belly-flyers (largest to smallest group), free-flyers, high-pullers (CF and AFF), followed by tandems.
The only people who are allowed to exit after tandems are birdmen.

Quick (novice) question... do free-flyers have a generally faster fall rate (especially head down or sit-fly) than belly flyers? If so should free-flyers jump first?? or has it more to do with pull altitude. Just trying to get a feel for whats eventually coming... thanks

Travis Roy Foundation. At very least its a tax write off

[dragon2 2]

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Tandem SOP is to have junior jumpers exit ahead of the tandem.
The normal exit sequence is: belly-flyers (largest to smallest group), free-flyers, high-pullers (CF and AFF), followed by tandems.
The only people who are allowed to exit after tandems are birdmen.

Quick (novice) question... do free-flyers have a generally faster fall rate (especially head down or sit-fly) than belly flyers? If so should free-flyers jump first?? or has it more to do with pull altitude. Just trying to get a feel for whats eventually coming... thanks

Bellyflyers fall slower so end up with more displacement by the uppers, they could drift over freeflyers if the freeflyers exited before. So, generally accepted exit order (certainly when dropping against the uppers) is first belly groups big to small, then freefly groups big to small, then solos and high pullers, AFF, tandem, wingsuit. CRW can go first or last too depending on their ideal spot. Basically you rely on horizontal separation not vertical. And yes, letting a newbie go out after a tandem goes against the accepted exit order and frankly is a potentially very dangerous idea.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Rstanley0312 1]

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Tandem SOP is to have junior jumpers exit ahead of the tandem.
The normal exit sequence is: belly-flyers (largest to smallest group), free-flyers, high-pullers (CF and AFF), followed by tandems.
The only people who are allowed to exit after tandems are birdmen.

I just do what i'm told. The DZO and tandem instructor told me to exit after, so thats what I did. I'm way too inexperienced to question what the DZO and instructors tell me to do. I was nowhere near them in the air though, I waited at least ten seconds, and the plane did a sort of right angle turn before i exited because the spot was long.

This is your official notice that you can question what a DZO tells you! It's your ass and others in the air not a DZO's and as far as the exit order goes you should have been out the door first even with a 182. Not yelling at you but really think about this and I would suggest you exit before from here on out and don't be scared to question.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[Tiger6513 0]

Thanks for the info dragon

Travis Roy Foundation. At very least its a tax write off

[airathanas 0]

Isn't it two tries and then if you can't get the drogue out, go straight to the reserve? What about handles checks?

No drogue = no main

http://3ringnecklace.com/

[davelepka 4]

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as far as the exit order goes you should have been out the door first even with a 182. Not yelling at you but really think about this and I would suggest you exit before from here on out and don't be scared to question.

I agree, that he should not be scared to question, but in terms of this jump, there may have been a reason he told to exit last.

Special circumstances between the student or TM may have dictated their seating position in the plane, blocking the fun jumper from getting to the door first.

I doubt that was the case. I'm inclined to believe that the TM simply preferred the seating arrangement that mandated the tandem exiting first. We know that this was a new TI, and a female so she may have seen some advantage to sitting next to the door, and avoiding the shuffle up to the door.

Also, the OP mentioned that the pilot hooked a right turn at the end of the jumprun because the spot was getting long, which is exactly what would happen if the TI was slow to get out of the door.

[kmills0705 0]

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I just do what i'm told. The DZO and tandem instructor told me to exit after, so thats what I did. I'm way too inexperienced to question what the DZO and instructors tell me to do. I was nowhere near them in the air though, I waited at least ten seconds, and the plane did a sort of right angle turn before i exited because the spot was long.

You are A licensed correct?

Even students should question DZO's and instructors.

And just feel the need to say it. AGAIN. We can only speculate what went on here. We have the "account" of someone who already claims they are way to inexperienced to know what is going on.

Kim Mills
USPA D21696
Tandem I, AFF I and Static Line I

[normiss 893]

This is worse than the incidents forum.
None of us have a clue what happened here.
Based on the comments of the original poster....can we trust them as a reliable source? Not to slam them or anything, but they already have issues with exit order.
Tells me one thing about the OP. TALK TO THE INSTRUCTORS AT YOUR DZ!!! PLEASE!!!
Especially before calling someone out in a public forum.

Without the TI's input, we really have NO way of knowing what happened here. I trust they have worked this through with the DZO, possibly an incident report, the agony of going over it through their head even.
It can get VERY challenging having someone go apeshit and freak out on the front of you.

If you weren't there or didn't talk to the TI, you have no clue. If you don't work tandems, you have even less of a clue.

[Rstanley0312 1]

I do not disagree with you but I know one thing..... I will not get out after a tandem unless I have a wingsuit on or I am doing a CRW jump and because I don't do either.... my ass is out of the plane first. Also I think it is important the OP knows that it is okay to question.

JMHO

As for the tandem incident.... not a TI so Normiss you are right I have no freakin clue so I'm sayin nothing about all that stuff... just glad nobody went in.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[normiss 893]

so I'm a very low jump number student on a school bus sized canopy....maybe even a small guy...."floaty".
Small dz, Cessna, keeping costs down, one pass for all 3 to exit.
You still want that guy out first?

[Rstanley0312 1]

Mark.... I get it but we would not be doing one pass at my DZ ... tandems always get their own pass. Point taken though but in thinking it through.... if I were a TI (Not one nor ever will be one) I think I would still want him out first. In theory you are creating both vertical and horizontal seperation from him along with opening higher. I know things go wrong but still.... ya I would want him out first even if he is "floaty"

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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so I'm a very low jump number student on a school bus sized canopy....maybe even a small guy...."floaty".
Small dz, Cessna, keeping costs down, one pass for all 3 to exit.
You still want that guy out first?

YES! It is not a case of wanting him out first; I am not leaving if he is still in the plane.
If the junior jumper drifts over me there is nothing I can do to protect my passenger. I am not putting him or me in that position.

[douwanto 22]

Ask your DZO or the TI to post the particulars of this incident in the Incident Forum or the very least instructors forum. It has obvious teaching value.

I am sure this TI needs to contact her TIE before making another tandem. Also because of the cypres fire the manufacture of the gear needs an incident report.

There are many issues this TI will have to work out.

If this is in fact what happened it SHOULD NOT be swept under the rug.

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

[normiss 893]

Like any other "incident" that happens, this forum has no required participation.
For all we know all the proper things have in fact been done.
This IS only a web site, no governing body on any level.
After being called out in public like this, I don't think I'd wanna post here at all.
That was an pretty low blow IMO.
Talk to the DZO, talk to your instructors, talk to the TI?
No, I'd rather question a world-wide pool of internet unknowns.


I still think this was a fluke that the TI APPEARS to have gotten one of those rare worst possible students on a first tandem or so.

Simply not posting here is not sweeping it under the rug.

[douwanto 22]

No one said or implied that anyone was required to post incidents in the forums. I can count the incidents not posted in just one week.

Nor did I say not posting here was sweeping it under the rug. Not treating it as a serious incident and looking right past it would be.

How ever since the original post is here I was asking the newbie to ask the DZO or instructor to post clarification on the incident.

As for it being a fluke??????? Nothing he said leads me to that position.

A low blow would be letting a TI who failed to preform the basic safety duties of their job continue without accepting that responsibility and taking some time to reflect on their ability as a TI. After that going through the course again might be something they want to do.

Now I dont know what if anything really happened but if it happened as described,That is my opinion as a TI and TE.

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421