hymandd732 0 #1 May 26, 2007 If DZ's continue to change operations into tandem factories than the future of fun jumpers is bleak indeed. I realize that tandems pay the bill but it sure doesn't help jump rates to moderate for fun jumpers and the equipment costs are escalating out of sight. It is sad to see such a great sport slowly turn into a commercial venture geared to the one time thrill seeker or competition geeks.Freefall Hall Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kynan1 0 #2 May 26, 2007 Funny post. Competition geeks...I prefer RW Cyborgs. At bigger dropzones, there are plenty of fun jumpers left. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #3 May 26, 2007 Quote Funny post. Competition geeks...I prefer RW Cyborgs. Meat Bombs... ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chutejump 0 #4 May 27, 2007 It is like everything else that is offered in the world today! "You can have anything you wish" all you need to do is pay the price!!! When the up jumpers start paying for jumps at a price that covers all expenses for the aminities and aircraft that they require and leave a reasonable profit for the provider, you will see services improve and DZs start to cater more to the up jumpers. The up jumpers have ridden freely on the back of the Student operations for years, It appears the time is coming that they are required to pay their own way. Like it or not a Drop Zones are businesses. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rapter 0 #5 May 27, 2007 With "Point Break II" coming out, the sport of skydiving will be saved. Only the good die young, so I have found immortality, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy_Copland 0 #6 May 27, 2007 Quote With "Point Break II" coming out, the sport of skydiving will be saved. On a serious note to the OP. I learnt at the busiest tandem dropzone in the UK. Training was excellent and so were the people, unfortunately i felt likei wasnt progressing there after AFF as there was a lack of fun jumpers. I moved.1338 People aint made of nothin' but water and shit. Until morale improves, the beatings will continue. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hymandd732 0 #7 May 27, 2007 What the hell is a "up" jumper?????QuoteFreefall Hall Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AMax 0 #8 May 27, 2007 it's a new generation - they have actually learned the skill of going up in freefall .... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkymonkeyONE 4 #9 May 27, 2007 QuoteWhat the hell is a "up" jumper?????Quote You really haven't ever heard that term? An "up" jumper is one who is licensed and is no longer considered a student. The term has been used for at least 40 years. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NWFlyer 2 #10 May 27, 2007 Deja vu all over again."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites towerrat 0 #11 May 27, 2007 Quote Deja vu all over again. redudancy is redundant............. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hymandd732 0 #12 May 28, 2007 I made my first jump in 1965 at Orange, Ma. and I never heard the term "up jumper"Freefall Hall Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AMax 0 #13 May 28, 2007 Sorry for being sarcastic. On a serious note, some of the biggest tandem factories in the US are also great places for teams and fun jumpers. Skydive Spaceland in Texas comes in mind - great place where everyone gets a slot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #14 May 28, 2007 My two cents from a few larger DZs I have been to/jumped at. Say 100 tandem a day operations. Tandem instructors are not financially incentiveized to be "up-sellers" to "upjumping".... They make 12 jumps a day, meet their student on the plane, and only can make more money if they can squeeze in that 13th jump. Often, they don't even fun jump anymore themselves and barely know the fun jumper crowd, especially the ones who are not high volume jumpers. In fact, AFF instructors are not really motivated past the AFF instruction period either - once off AFF - the student is no longer a source of revenue. What would happen if the Tandem Instructor, FJC instructor, and level 1 AFF instructors all got paid, say, $.50, of every slot that jumper purchased for the rest of their skydiving career at that DZ - and were required to do a fun jump or two with the newbees, say a sunset staff-low jump number tracking dive, to keep the commission. Imagine how each instructor would become a mentor and sales person to keep that skydiver in the sport. Tandem instructors would start calling their customers after the beer light came on and would say, "thanks for jumping with me today. I had a lot of fun. You know the next step is AFF. Please call me or the DZ and I will introduce you to XXXXXXX who is going to be teaching the FJC next weekend." I bet we could "get" 10-20% more retention... To the comment about gear pricing... Today I borrowed my dad's boat and went wakeboarding with a few friends. $80 in gas for the boat. $35 for a new rope... If the boat was not 18 years old, there would be loan payments... But now it is just storage, insurance, and rebuilding of engines every few years... Considering it is stored for the winter - I suspect it costs $700 a summer month to maintain that boat. Thats 7 or 8 slots a weekend... I cry B.S. on the "expensive sport" line... Wakeboarding, jet skiing, motorcycle riding, golf... There are other expensive sports. The reason people pay the money is to socialize and have fun with friends... Return to the concept that started my post... If students saw the potential for friends right off, more would stick around... I never knew all my friends, on and off the DZ, would be skydivers... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #15 May 28, 2007 Quote Quote What the hell is a "up" jumper????? Quote You really haven't ever heard that term? An "up" jumper is one who is licensed and is no longer considered a student. The term has been used for at least 40 years. Yeah but 40 yeras ago it meant a couple of things! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 16 #16 May 28, 2007 Back when safety meetings were all the time, not just in March. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,114 #17 May 28, 2007 >I bet we could "get" 10-20% more retention... Why is that important Why do we need 20% more retention? Why is it bad that some people only do one or two tandems? I like go kart racing. I'd be OK if they said "hey, come on back sometime!" and gave me more literature on it. I'd be annoyed if someone came over and gave me a hard sell to take their expert course or whatever. I'll do that if I want to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #18 May 28, 2007 Wait until skydiving starts getting seriously attacked for contributing to global warming and being 100% non essential. When that happens I am going to start espousing that pre 2007 Republican line that there is no scientific proof of global warming. Guess we will have to be winched up to stationary helium balloons that have a pulley attached.. The ground based winches will be driven by solar electric power. As long as gravity still works, there will always be a way to skydive2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #19 May 28, 2007 Quote >I bet we could "get" 10-20% more retention... Why is that important Why do we need 20% more retention? Why is it bad that some people only do one or two tandems? I agree - no hard sells. But there is a point between the "I am going to know you for 10 minutes like the guy at the amusement park who puts down the restraint on the roller coaster who you would not recognise on the street the day after" and a used car sales person who you give your ex girlfriend's new boyfriend's number to when you visit the car lot knowing he will be calling you at least 10 times a day.... Why retention... If you read the USPA commentaries, they are pointing out our sport is on a downward trend right now. They have their reasons to be concerned... My reasons: (gear related) 1) More skydivers = more volume to manufactures... 2) With more volume comes more R&D money 3) With more volume comes Economies of Scale and cheaper products with equal profit and quality. 4) With more volume comes competitive entries to the market place that can challenge established companies to out perform their own expectations. (jumping related) 5) With more skydivers I have more variety in friends to jump with for new experiences and more fun times. 6) With more skydivers, the DZ will keep more planes flying for quicker loads leaving when I want to leave, not every 20 minutes when the single plane turns. 7) With more skydivers organizing things like Sunday night sunset bigways would be possible. (Bill I think you jump at Perris where putting together 23 free fliers or 23 belly guys to do a full plane load formation is possible. Not all DZs have this - sure you have more than 23 people jumping, but their skills or disciplines don't line up with a single plane load formation.) 8) With more skydivers more drop zones could open and justify their own existence. With more drop zones, you get places to jump more convenient to your own home, and competition to keep DZOs wanting to innovate ways to keep customers wanting to choose theirs - with say great load organizing or great coaching on staff or great boogies or great after the beer light activities or great pricing. 9) With more students entering AFF, and more making it past level 1, as an AFF instructor I would have more fun - as AFF level 1 skydives are much less fun than AFF level 7s where I get to let go and fly hard and see a student pass to being able to jump without my help. 10) DZOs would make more money as AFF is just as profitable to a DZ as a tandem... I calculate most DZOs make 50-100 after the retail price of the slots, gear rental, and instructor fees.... That is a good margin. One or two AFF students pays for all the front desk/manifest labor for the day assuming $12 per hour.... Another few would pay the rent. Another few pay for the slots and fees of load organizers. Soon, the AFFs pay for operations and tandems become gravy and fun jumpers become the keep the plane full requirement... Plus, it is "upselling existing customers", not bringing in a new tandem every day... It is much harder in my line of work to get new customers than to keep and grow happy existing customers. (Yes I know the numbers to run a DZ are expensive. I am just illustrating that a few $100 margin customers a day pay a lot of the bills. No need to argue the numbers as this horse has been beaten to death in other threads that can be resurrected.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #20 May 28, 2007 I'd be annoyed if someone came over and gave me a hard sell to take their expert course or whatever. I'll do that if I want to. Quote Wow....I honestly never looked at it like that...but damn, you're right. How we 'market' counts. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AdD 1 #21 May 28, 2007 Would probly end up being hydrogen balloons, you know cuz helium is non-renewable. Damn I wish someone would set something like that up.Life is ez On the dz Every jumper's dream 3 rigs and an airstream Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #22 May 28, 2007 Quote Would probly end up being hydrogen balloons, you know cuz helium is non-renewable. Damn I wish someone would set something like that up. H2 is a bit inflammable. AFAIK all H2 blimps burned or exploded. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stratostar 5 #23 May 28, 2007 ***3) With more volume comes Economies of Scale and cheaper products with equal profit and quality.*** That is not what happened in the boom of the 90's, the prices have kept going up, only the Dolphin rig was geared towards low cost, but it wern't cool enough for the fashionable jumper crowd that is ordering gear these days. It's the cycle of life, we had our boom time, now it's bust time. This is not all bad it weeds out those "flash in the pan" jumpers and leaves only those who really want to jump, because it's jumping and not a "country club" fashon show in the sky. We've all seen them come and go, and we'll see um again when the next boom happends, till then it's not such a bad thing to have DZ's close up shop, some don't need to be in business and have done nothing but rob people of their cash and give the sport a black eye. I'm watching right now a DZ breath it's last gasps of air before it die's, it has been a slow painful death to watch. Everyone but the DZO knows that the DZ is done and has been done for some time now. In fact it's the DZO who is to blame, they piss of everyone by treating them like shit and acting as if they didn't need the "up Jumpers" and staff were a dime a dozen and after a while everyone left. They leave to go to the "other" place, and after 6 seasons of doing this there is no one left. You can't even get a 4 way together out of a 182 it's so bad. And TDM's are being charged the same or more then the "other" turbine DZ's, for a 182 jump and it takes all day for them to get on a load. I watched 6 to 7 TDM's take all day to get done, and two of them were back the next day because they couldn't get um up before sundown and they had been there all day. I read the numbers USPA put's out. Yes the sport is in decline and has been. It started on or just before 9-11, and in a post 9-11 world people are to worried about war and keeping their jobs from being sent to India or china. With the hight cost of a TDM or Lv. 1 AFF we have priced the sport out of reach of many people in todays market. Many dz's have done away with the SL programs in favor of fast cash, no time involved training of TDM's. So the sport is really to blame for shooting it's self in the foot and keeping people away, it's only a ride now that anyone can do, old, young, male, female, skinny, and way to fucking fat! You used to have to earn it and not everyone could do it. Even broke ass collage students could afford SL jumps, but most DZ's won't offer it any more due to greed and keeping up with the trends. So add in a bunch of "up jumpers" who want a fast turbine air fleet, the tunnel on the dz, maga pro shop, swimming pool, sports bar , full service resturant, maid service to clean up after them and full service rigging shop on the dz, yet don't want to pay the price to keep those things they want, they want to ride the backs of the TDM students and have them pay for it all, so they can cry about 22.00 lift tickets. Then you have the DZO's who want to pay 25 bucks or less for stills and video, and expect you to fork out 3 grand or more for the equipment to do the job (not counting the rigs) and yet try getting a sitting for photography at a studio for 25.00 bucks or less for photography that no one has to risk their life to take! Oh and god forbid you lose a camera while doing one of these cheap jobs, you can bet the DZO will rush right in with their check book to replace the stuff you lost, after all the money they made from the TDM's. Yea right..... Having people and DZ's leave the sport is not all bad, it makes for cheap used gear and cheap used planes for those who run a real a business and not a hang out bar for frat boy drop outs disguised as a dropzone.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VectorBoy 0 #24 May 28, 2007 H2 is a bit inflammable. AFAIK all H2 blimps burned or exploded. Its perfectly safe and stable above 90% purity. Keeping your anylizer calibrated would be as important as cocking your pilot chute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites azdiver 0 #25 May 29, 2007 QuoteMy two cents from a few larger DZs I have been to/jumped at. Say 100 tandem a day operations. Tandem instructors are not financially incentiveized to be "up-sellers" to "upjumping".... They make 12 jumps a day, meet their student on the plane, and only can make more money if they can squeeze in that 13th jump. Often, they don't even fun jump anymore themselves and barely know the fun jumper crowd, especially the ones who are not high volume jumpers. In fact, AFF instructors are not really motivated past the AFF instruction period either - once off AFF - the student is no longer a source of revenue. What would happen if the Tandem Instructor, FJC instructor, and level 1 AFF instructors all got paid, say, $.50, of every slot that jumper purchased for the rest of their skydiving career at that DZ - and were required to do a fun jump or two with the newbees, say a sunset staff-low jump number tracking dive, to keep the commission. Imagine how each instructor would become a mentor and sales person to keep that skydiver in the sport. Tandem instructors would start calling their customers after the beer light came on and would say, "thanks for jumping with me today. I had a lot of fun. You know the next step is AFF. Please call me or the DZ and I will introduce you to XXXXXXX who is going to be teaching the FJC next weekend." I bet we could "get" 10-20% more retention... To the comment about gear pricing... Today I borrowed my dad's boat and went wakeboarding with a few friends. $80 in gas for the boat. $35 for a new rope... If the boat was not 18 years old, there would be loan payments... But now it is just storage, insurance, and rebuilding of engines every few years... Considering it is stored for the winter - I suspect it costs $700 a summer month to maintain that boat. Thats 7 or 8 slots a weekend... I cry B.S. on the "expensive sport" line... Wakeboarding, jet skiing, motorcycle riding, golf... There are other expensive sports. The reason people pay the money is to socialize and have fun with friends... Return to the concept that started my post... If students saw the potential for friends right off, more would stick around... I never knew all my friends, on and off the DZ, would be skydivers...not sure about what your experience has been but i still jump with some of the instructors and ti i had when i first started and i jump at a pretty big dz. and all of them still talk and give me advice almost every time im down therelight travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
AMax 0 #8 May 27, 2007 it's a new generation - they have actually learned the skill of going up in freefall .... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #9 May 27, 2007 QuoteWhat the hell is a "up" jumper?????Quote You really haven't ever heard that term? An "up" jumper is one who is licensed and is no longer considered a student. The term has been used for at least 40 years. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NWFlyer 2 #10 May 27, 2007 Deja vu all over again."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites towerrat 0 #11 May 27, 2007 Quote Deja vu all over again. redudancy is redundant............. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hymandd732 0 #12 May 28, 2007 I made my first jump in 1965 at Orange, Ma. and I never heard the term "up jumper"Freefall Hall Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AMax 0 #13 May 28, 2007 Sorry for being sarcastic. On a serious note, some of the biggest tandem factories in the US are also great places for teams and fun jumpers. Skydive Spaceland in Texas comes in mind - great place where everyone gets a slot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #14 May 28, 2007 My two cents from a few larger DZs I have been to/jumped at. Say 100 tandem a day operations. Tandem instructors are not financially incentiveized to be "up-sellers" to "upjumping".... They make 12 jumps a day, meet their student on the plane, and only can make more money if they can squeeze in that 13th jump. Often, they don't even fun jump anymore themselves and barely know the fun jumper crowd, especially the ones who are not high volume jumpers. In fact, AFF instructors are not really motivated past the AFF instruction period either - once off AFF - the student is no longer a source of revenue. What would happen if the Tandem Instructor, FJC instructor, and level 1 AFF instructors all got paid, say, $.50, of every slot that jumper purchased for the rest of their skydiving career at that DZ - and were required to do a fun jump or two with the newbees, say a sunset staff-low jump number tracking dive, to keep the commission. Imagine how each instructor would become a mentor and sales person to keep that skydiver in the sport. Tandem instructors would start calling their customers after the beer light came on and would say, "thanks for jumping with me today. I had a lot of fun. You know the next step is AFF. Please call me or the DZ and I will introduce you to XXXXXXX who is going to be teaching the FJC next weekend." I bet we could "get" 10-20% more retention... To the comment about gear pricing... Today I borrowed my dad's boat and went wakeboarding with a few friends. $80 in gas for the boat. $35 for a new rope... If the boat was not 18 years old, there would be loan payments... But now it is just storage, insurance, and rebuilding of engines every few years... Considering it is stored for the winter - I suspect it costs $700 a summer month to maintain that boat. Thats 7 or 8 slots a weekend... I cry B.S. on the "expensive sport" line... Wakeboarding, jet skiing, motorcycle riding, golf... There are other expensive sports. The reason people pay the money is to socialize and have fun with friends... Return to the concept that started my post... If students saw the potential for friends right off, more would stick around... I never knew all my friends, on and off the DZ, would be skydivers... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #15 May 28, 2007 Quote Quote What the hell is a "up" jumper????? Quote You really haven't ever heard that term? An "up" jumper is one who is licensed and is no longer considered a student. The term has been used for at least 40 years. Yeah but 40 yeras ago it meant a couple of things! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnMitchell 16 #16 May 28, 2007 Back when safety meetings were all the time, not just in March. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,114 #17 May 28, 2007 >I bet we could "get" 10-20% more retention... Why is that important Why do we need 20% more retention? Why is it bad that some people only do one or two tandems? I like go kart racing. I'd be OK if they said "hey, come on back sometime!" and gave me more literature on it. I'd be annoyed if someone came over and gave me a hard sell to take their expert course or whatever. I'll do that if I want to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 377 22 #18 May 28, 2007 Wait until skydiving starts getting seriously attacked for contributing to global warming and being 100% non essential. When that happens I am going to start espousing that pre 2007 Republican line that there is no scientific proof of global warming. Guess we will have to be winched up to stationary helium balloons that have a pulley attached.. The ground based winches will be driven by solar electric power. As long as gravity still works, there will always be a way to skydive2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #19 May 28, 2007 Quote >I bet we could "get" 10-20% more retention... Why is that important Why do we need 20% more retention? Why is it bad that some people only do one or two tandems? I agree - no hard sells. But there is a point between the "I am going to know you for 10 minutes like the guy at the amusement park who puts down the restraint on the roller coaster who you would not recognise on the street the day after" and a used car sales person who you give your ex girlfriend's new boyfriend's number to when you visit the car lot knowing he will be calling you at least 10 times a day.... Why retention... If you read the USPA commentaries, they are pointing out our sport is on a downward trend right now. They have their reasons to be concerned... My reasons: (gear related) 1) More skydivers = more volume to manufactures... 2) With more volume comes more R&D money 3) With more volume comes Economies of Scale and cheaper products with equal profit and quality. 4) With more volume comes competitive entries to the market place that can challenge established companies to out perform their own expectations. (jumping related) 5) With more skydivers I have more variety in friends to jump with for new experiences and more fun times. 6) With more skydivers, the DZ will keep more planes flying for quicker loads leaving when I want to leave, not every 20 minutes when the single plane turns. 7) With more skydivers organizing things like Sunday night sunset bigways would be possible. (Bill I think you jump at Perris where putting together 23 free fliers or 23 belly guys to do a full plane load formation is possible. Not all DZs have this - sure you have more than 23 people jumping, but their skills or disciplines don't line up with a single plane load formation.) 8) With more skydivers more drop zones could open and justify their own existence. With more drop zones, you get places to jump more convenient to your own home, and competition to keep DZOs wanting to innovate ways to keep customers wanting to choose theirs - with say great load organizing or great coaching on staff or great boogies or great after the beer light activities or great pricing. 9) With more students entering AFF, and more making it past level 1, as an AFF instructor I would have more fun - as AFF level 1 skydives are much less fun than AFF level 7s where I get to let go and fly hard and see a student pass to being able to jump without my help. 10) DZOs would make more money as AFF is just as profitable to a DZ as a tandem... I calculate most DZOs make 50-100 after the retail price of the slots, gear rental, and instructor fees.... That is a good margin. One or two AFF students pays for all the front desk/manifest labor for the day assuming $12 per hour.... Another few would pay the rent. Another few pay for the slots and fees of load organizers. Soon, the AFFs pay for operations and tandems become gravy and fun jumpers become the keep the plane full requirement... Plus, it is "upselling existing customers", not bringing in a new tandem every day... It is much harder in my line of work to get new customers than to keep and grow happy existing customers. (Yes I know the numbers to run a DZ are expensive. I am just illustrating that a few $100 margin customers a day pay a lot of the bills. No need to argue the numbers as this horse has been beaten to death in other threads that can be resurrected.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #20 May 28, 2007 I'd be annoyed if someone came over and gave me a hard sell to take their expert course or whatever. I'll do that if I want to. Quote Wow....I honestly never looked at it like that...but damn, you're right. How we 'market' counts. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AdD 1 #21 May 28, 2007 Would probly end up being hydrogen balloons, you know cuz helium is non-renewable. Damn I wish someone would set something like that up.Life is ez On the dz Every jumper's dream 3 rigs and an airstream Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #22 May 28, 2007 Quote Would probly end up being hydrogen balloons, you know cuz helium is non-renewable. Damn I wish someone would set something like that up. H2 is a bit inflammable. AFAIK all H2 blimps burned or exploded. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites stratostar 5 #23 May 28, 2007 ***3) With more volume comes Economies of Scale and cheaper products with equal profit and quality.*** That is not what happened in the boom of the 90's, the prices have kept going up, only the Dolphin rig was geared towards low cost, but it wern't cool enough for the fashionable jumper crowd that is ordering gear these days. It's the cycle of life, we had our boom time, now it's bust time. This is not all bad it weeds out those "flash in the pan" jumpers and leaves only those who really want to jump, because it's jumping and not a "country club" fashon show in the sky. We've all seen them come and go, and we'll see um again when the next boom happends, till then it's not such a bad thing to have DZ's close up shop, some don't need to be in business and have done nothing but rob people of their cash and give the sport a black eye. I'm watching right now a DZ breath it's last gasps of air before it die's, it has been a slow painful death to watch. Everyone but the DZO knows that the DZ is done and has been done for some time now. In fact it's the DZO who is to blame, they piss of everyone by treating them like shit and acting as if they didn't need the "up Jumpers" and staff were a dime a dozen and after a while everyone left. They leave to go to the "other" place, and after 6 seasons of doing this there is no one left. You can't even get a 4 way together out of a 182 it's so bad. And TDM's are being charged the same or more then the "other" turbine DZ's, for a 182 jump and it takes all day for them to get on a load. I watched 6 to 7 TDM's take all day to get done, and two of them were back the next day because they couldn't get um up before sundown and they had been there all day. I read the numbers USPA put's out. Yes the sport is in decline and has been. It started on or just before 9-11, and in a post 9-11 world people are to worried about war and keeping their jobs from being sent to India or china. With the hight cost of a TDM or Lv. 1 AFF we have priced the sport out of reach of many people in todays market. Many dz's have done away with the SL programs in favor of fast cash, no time involved training of TDM's. So the sport is really to blame for shooting it's self in the foot and keeping people away, it's only a ride now that anyone can do, old, young, male, female, skinny, and way to fucking fat! You used to have to earn it and not everyone could do it. Even broke ass collage students could afford SL jumps, but most DZ's won't offer it any more due to greed and keeping up with the trends. So add in a bunch of "up jumpers" who want a fast turbine air fleet, the tunnel on the dz, maga pro shop, swimming pool, sports bar , full service resturant, maid service to clean up after them and full service rigging shop on the dz, yet don't want to pay the price to keep those things they want, they want to ride the backs of the TDM students and have them pay for it all, so they can cry about 22.00 lift tickets. Then you have the DZO's who want to pay 25 bucks or less for stills and video, and expect you to fork out 3 grand or more for the equipment to do the job (not counting the rigs) and yet try getting a sitting for photography at a studio for 25.00 bucks or less for photography that no one has to risk their life to take! Oh and god forbid you lose a camera while doing one of these cheap jobs, you can bet the DZO will rush right in with their check book to replace the stuff you lost, after all the money they made from the TDM's. Yea right..... Having people and DZ's leave the sport is not all bad, it makes for cheap used gear and cheap used planes for those who run a real a business and not a hang out bar for frat boy drop outs disguised as a dropzone.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites VectorBoy 0 #24 May 28, 2007 H2 is a bit inflammable. AFAIK all H2 blimps burned or exploded. Its perfectly safe and stable above 90% purity. Keeping your anylizer calibrated would be as important as cocking your pilot chute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites azdiver 0 #25 May 29, 2007 QuoteMy two cents from a few larger DZs I have been to/jumped at. Say 100 tandem a day operations. Tandem instructors are not financially incentiveized to be "up-sellers" to "upjumping".... They make 12 jumps a day, meet their student on the plane, and only can make more money if they can squeeze in that 13th jump. Often, they don't even fun jump anymore themselves and barely know the fun jumper crowd, especially the ones who are not high volume jumpers. In fact, AFF instructors are not really motivated past the AFF instruction period either - once off AFF - the student is no longer a source of revenue. What would happen if the Tandem Instructor, FJC instructor, and level 1 AFF instructors all got paid, say, $.50, of every slot that jumper purchased for the rest of their skydiving career at that DZ - and were required to do a fun jump or two with the newbees, say a sunset staff-low jump number tracking dive, to keep the commission. Imagine how each instructor would become a mentor and sales person to keep that skydiver in the sport. Tandem instructors would start calling their customers after the beer light came on and would say, "thanks for jumping with me today. I had a lot of fun. You know the next step is AFF. Please call me or the DZ and I will introduce you to XXXXXXX who is going to be teaching the FJC next weekend." I bet we could "get" 10-20% more retention... To the comment about gear pricing... Today I borrowed my dad's boat and went wakeboarding with a few friends. $80 in gas for the boat. $35 for a new rope... If the boat was not 18 years old, there would be loan payments... But now it is just storage, insurance, and rebuilding of engines every few years... Considering it is stored for the winter - I suspect it costs $700 a summer month to maintain that boat. Thats 7 or 8 slots a weekend... I cry B.S. on the "expensive sport" line... Wakeboarding, jet skiing, motorcycle riding, golf... There are other expensive sports. The reason people pay the money is to socialize and have fun with friends... Return to the concept that started my post... If students saw the potential for friends right off, more would stick around... I never knew all my friends, on and off the DZ, would be skydivers...not sure about what your experience has been but i still jump with some of the instructors and ti i had when i first started and i jump at a pretty big dz. and all of them still talk and give me advice almost every time im down therelight travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
NWFlyer 2 #10 May 27, 2007 Deja vu all over again."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
towerrat 0 #11 May 27, 2007 Quote Deja vu all over again. redudancy is redundant............. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hymandd732 0 #12 May 28, 2007 I made my first jump in 1965 at Orange, Ma. and I never heard the term "up jumper"Freefall Hall Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AMax 0 #13 May 28, 2007 Sorry for being sarcastic. On a serious note, some of the biggest tandem factories in the US are also great places for teams and fun jumpers. Skydive Spaceland in Texas comes in mind - great place where everyone gets a slot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #14 May 28, 2007 My two cents from a few larger DZs I have been to/jumped at. Say 100 tandem a day operations. Tandem instructors are not financially incentiveized to be "up-sellers" to "upjumping".... They make 12 jumps a day, meet their student on the plane, and only can make more money if they can squeeze in that 13th jump. Often, they don't even fun jump anymore themselves and barely know the fun jumper crowd, especially the ones who are not high volume jumpers. In fact, AFF instructors are not really motivated past the AFF instruction period either - once off AFF - the student is no longer a source of revenue. What would happen if the Tandem Instructor, FJC instructor, and level 1 AFF instructors all got paid, say, $.50, of every slot that jumper purchased for the rest of their skydiving career at that DZ - and were required to do a fun jump or two with the newbees, say a sunset staff-low jump number tracking dive, to keep the commission. Imagine how each instructor would become a mentor and sales person to keep that skydiver in the sport. Tandem instructors would start calling their customers after the beer light came on and would say, "thanks for jumping with me today. I had a lot of fun. You know the next step is AFF. Please call me or the DZ and I will introduce you to XXXXXXX who is going to be teaching the FJC next weekend." I bet we could "get" 10-20% more retention... To the comment about gear pricing... Today I borrowed my dad's boat and went wakeboarding with a few friends. $80 in gas for the boat. $35 for a new rope... If the boat was not 18 years old, there would be loan payments... But now it is just storage, insurance, and rebuilding of engines every few years... Considering it is stored for the winter - I suspect it costs $700 a summer month to maintain that boat. Thats 7 or 8 slots a weekend... I cry B.S. on the "expensive sport" line... Wakeboarding, jet skiing, motorcycle riding, golf... There are other expensive sports. The reason people pay the money is to socialize and have fun with friends... Return to the concept that started my post... If students saw the potential for friends right off, more would stick around... I never knew all my friends, on and off the DZ, would be skydivers... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #15 May 28, 2007 Quote Quote What the hell is a "up" jumper????? Quote You really haven't ever heard that term? An "up" jumper is one who is licensed and is no longer considered a student. The term has been used for at least 40 years. Yeah but 40 yeras ago it meant a couple of things! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #16 May 28, 2007 Back when safety meetings were all the time, not just in March. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,114 #17 May 28, 2007 >I bet we could "get" 10-20% more retention... Why is that important Why do we need 20% more retention? Why is it bad that some people only do one or two tandems? I like go kart racing. I'd be OK if they said "hey, come on back sometime!" and gave me more literature on it. I'd be annoyed if someone came over and gave me a hard sell to take their expert course or whatever. I'll do that if I want to. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
377 22 #18 May 28, 2007 Wait until skydiving starts getting seriously attacked for contributing to global warming and being 100% non essential. When that happens I am going to start espousing that pre 2007 Republican line that there is no scientific proof of global warming. Guess we will have to be winched up to stationary helium balloons that have a pulley attached.. The ground based winches will be driven by solar electric power. As long as gravity still works, there will always be a way to skydive2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #19 May 28, 2007 Quote >I bet we could "get" 10-20% more retention... Why is that important Why do we need 20% more retention? Why is it bad that some people only do one or two tandems? I agree - no hard sells. But there is a point between the "I am going to know you for 10 minutes like the guy at the amusement park who puts down the restraint on the roller coaster who you would not recognise on the street the day after" and a used car sales person who you give your ex girlfriend's new boyfriend's number to when you visit the car lot knowing he will be calling you at least 10 times a day.... Why retention... If you read the USPA commentaries, they are pointing out our sport is on a downward trend right now. They have their reasons to be concerned... My reasons: (gear related) 1) More skydivers = more volume to manufactures... 2) With more volume comes more R&D money 3) With more volume comes Economies of Scale and cheaper products with equal profit and quality. 4) With more volume comes competitive entries to the market place that can challenge established companies to out perform their own expectations. (jumping related) 5) With more skydivers I have more variety in friends to jump with for new experiences and more fun times. 6) With more skydivers, the DZ will keep more planes flying for quicker loads leaving when I want to leave, not every 20 minutes when the single plane turns. 7) With more skydivers organizing things like Sunday night sunset bigways would be possible. (Bill I think you jump at Perris where putting together 23 free fliers or 23 belly guys to do a full plane load formation is possible. Not all DZs have this - sure you have more than 23 people jumping, but their skills or disciplines don't line up with a single plane load formation.) 8) With more skydivers more drop zones could open and justify their own existence. With more drop zones, you get places to jump more convenient to your own home, and competition to keep DZOs wanting to innovate ways to keep customers wanting to choose theirs - with say great load organizing or great coaching on staff or great boogies or great after the beer light activities or great pricing. 9) With more students entering AFF, and more making it past level 1, as an AFF instructor I would have more fun - as AFF level 1 skydives are much less fun than AFF level 7s where I get to let go and fly hard and see a student pass to being able to jump without my help. 10) DZOs would make more money as AFF is just as profitable to a DZ as a tandem... I calculate most DZOs make 50-100 after the retail price of the slots, gear rental, and instructor fees.... That is a good margin. One or two AFF students pays for all the front desk/manifest labor for the day assuming $12 per hour.... Another few would pay the rent. Another few pay for the slots and fees of load organizers. Soon, the AFFs pay for operations and tandems become gravy and fun jumpers become the keep the plane full requirement... Plus, it is "upselling existing customers", not bringing in a new tandem every day... It is much harder in my line of work to get new customers than to keep and grow happy existing customers. (Yes I know the numbers to run a DZ are expensive. I am just illustrating that a few $100 margin customers a day pay a lot of the bills. No need to argue the numbers as this horse has been beaten to death in other threads that can be resurrected.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #20 May 28, 2007 I'd be annoyed if someone came over and gave me a hard sell to take their expert course or whatever. I'll do that if I want to. Quote Wow....I honestly never looked at it like that...but damn, you're right. How we 'market' counts. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AdD 1 #21 May 28, 2007 Would probly end up being hydrogen balloons, you know cuz helium is non-renewable. Damn I wish someone would set something like that up.Life is ez On the dz Every jumper's dream 3 rigs and an airstream Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #22 May 28, 2007 Quote Would probly end up being hydrogen balloons, you know cuz helium is non-renewable. Damn I wish someone would set something like that up. H2 is a bit inflammable. AFAIK all H2 blimps burned or exploded. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #23 May 28, 2007 ***3) With more volume comes Economies of Scale and cheaper products with equal profit and quality.*** That is not what happened in the boom of the 90's, the prices have kept going up, only the Dolphin rig was geared towards low cost, but it wern't cool enough for the fashionable jumper crowd that is ordering gear these days. It's the cycle of life, we had our boom time, now it's bust time. This is not all bad it weeds out those "flash in the pan" jumpers and leaves only those who really want to jump, because it's jumping and not a "country club" fashon show in the sky. We've all seen them come and go, and we'll see um again when the next boom happends, till then it's not such a bad thing to have DZ's close up shop, some don't need to be in business and have done nothing but rob people of their cash and give the sport a black eye. I'm watching right now a DZ breath it's last gasps of air before it die's, it has been a slow painful death to watch. Everyone but the DZO knows that the DZ is done and has been done for some time now. In fact it's the DZO who is to blame, they piss of everyone by treating them like shit and acting as if they didn't need the "up Jumpers" and staff were a dime a dozen and after a while everyone left. They leave to go to the "other" place, and after 6 seasons of doing this there is no one left. You can't even get a 4 way together out of a 182 it's so bad. And TDM's are being charged the same or more then the "other" turbine DZ's, for a 182 jump and it takes all day for them to get on a load. I watched 6 to 7 TDM's take all day to get done, and two of them were back the next day because they couldn't get um up before sundown and they had been there all day. I read the numbers USPA put's out. Yes the sport is in decline and has been. It started on or just before 9-11, and in a post 9-11 world people are to worried about war and keeping their jobs from being sent to India or china. With the hight cost of a TDM or Lv. 1 AFF we have priced the sport out of reach of many people in todays market. Many dz's have done away with the SL programs in favor of fast cash, no time involved training of TDM's. So the sport is really to blame for shooting it's self in the foot and keeping people away, it's only a ride now that anyone can do, old, young, male, female, skinny, and way to fucking fat! You used to have to earn it and not everyone could do it. Even broke ass collage students could afford SL jumps, but most DZ's won't offer it any more due to greed and keeping up with the trends. So add in a bunch of "up jumpers" who want a fast turbine air fleet, the tunnel on the dz, maga pro shop, swimming pool, sports bar , full service resturant, maid service to clean up after them and full service rigging shop on the dz, yet don't want to pay the price to keep those things they want, they want to ride the backs of the TDM students and have them pay for it all, so they can cry about 22.00 lift tickets. Then you have the DZO's who want to pay 25 bucks or less for stills and video, and expect you to fork out 3 grand or more for the equipment to do the job (not counting the rigs) and yet try getting a sitting for photography at a studio for 25.00 bucks or less for photography that no one has to risk their life to take! Oh and god forbid you lose a camera while doing one of these cheap jobs, you can bet the DZO will rush right in with their check book to replace the stuff you lost, after all the money they made from the TDM's. Yea right..... Having people and DZ's leave the sport is not all bad, it makes for cheap used gear and cheap used planes for those who run a real a business and not a hang out bar for frat boy drop outs disguised as a dropzone.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VectorBoy 0 #24 May 28, 2007 H2 is a bit inflammable. AFAIK all H2 blimps burned or exploded. Its perfectly safe and stable above 90% purity. Keeping your anylizer calibrated would be as important as cocking your pilot chute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azdiver 0 #25 May 29, 2007 QuoteMy two cents from a few larger DZs I have been to/jumped at. Say 100 tandem a day operations. Tandem instructors are not financially incentiveized to be "up-sellers" to "upjumping".... They make 12 jumps a day, meet their student on the plane, and only can make more money if they can squeeze in that 13th jump. Often, they don't even fun jump anymore themselves and barely know the fun jumper crowd, especially the ones who are not high volume jumpers. In fact, AFF instructors are not really motivated past the AFF instruction period either - once off AFF - the student is no longer a source of revenue. What would happen if the Tandem Instructor, FJC instructor, and level 1 AFF instructors all got paid, say, $.50, of every slot that jumper purchased for the rest of their skydiving career at that DZ - and were required to do a fun jump or two with the newbees, say a sunset staff-low jump number tracking dive, to keep the commission. Imagine how each instructor would become a mentor and sales person to keep that skydiver in the sport. Tandem instructors would start calling their customers after the beer light came on and would say, "thanks for jumping with me today. I had a lot of fun. You know the next step is AFF. Please call me or the DZ and I will introduce you to XXXXXXX who is going to be teaching the FJC next weekend." I bet we could "get" 10-20% more retention... To the comment about gear pricing... Today I borrowed my dad's boat and went wakeboarding with a few friends. $80 in gas for the boat. $35 for a new rope... If the boat was not 18 years old, there would be loan payments... But now it is just storage, insurance, and rebuilding of engines every few years... Considering it is stored for the winter - I suspect it costs $700 a summer month to maintain that boat. Thats 7 or 8 slots a weekend... I cry B.S. on the "expensive sport" line... Wakeboarding, jet skiing, motorcycle riding, golf... There are other expensive sports. The reason people pay the money is to socialize and have fun with friends... Return to the concept that started my post... If students saw the potential for friends right off, more would stick around... I never knew all my friends, on and off the DZ, would be skydivers...not sure about what your experience has been but i still jump with some of the instructors and ti i had when i first started and i jump at a pretty big dz. and all of them still talk and give me advice almost every time im down therelight travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
