Flat turns

[ChrisL 2]

I'm very glad that I took the time to learn how to properly execute flat turns.

This weekend, another jumper that for some reason was not only ignoring the pattern, but was also looking everywhere except for directly in front of him, forced me to leave the landing pattern to avoid a collision
and then re-enter it far lower than I was accustomed to.

Learn how to do these. They can really save your ass.

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My mighty steed

[Avion 0]

Just out of curiousity, how do you execute your flat turns?

[ChrisL 2]

Pull down both toggles to about half brakes, then slowly let one toggle
up a little bit (not all the way back up) on the opposite side from the direction you want to turn.
If you want to turn left, let the right toggle move back up slowly until you begin to turn, then hold it there.
When you have turned the amount you want, pull that toggle back down to match the left toggle.
Repeat as necessary.

This allows you to make turns without diving or swinging out from under your canopy, and without the altitude loss you get from regular toggle turns.

Just understanding how to do them intellectually is not enough. Unless you actually practice them occsasionally, chances are you wont use them
when the pressure is on...

Edited to add: PS. If anyone has a better description of the technique, please feel free to add

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My mighty steed

[phoenixlpr 0]

Check this: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=47

It seems he does not know how things are called. He has described braked turns....

[phoenixlpr 0]

So you know how to do a braked turn.
Well done!

You can advance to the flat turns now. :)

[ChrisL 2]

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So you know how to do a braked turn.
Well done!

You can advance to the flat turns now. :)

I believe that either term is correct.
I've heard both used interchangably.


.

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My mighty steed

[ChrisL 2]

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Check this: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=47

It seems he does not know how things are called. He has described braked turns....

The article you linked here also calls them flat turns.

From the article:

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A variation on this is to go to half brakes and then let one brake up. This gives you a flat turn, but by flaring first you "use up" some of the canopy's energy so you can't turn as effectively. On the plus side the turn happens more slowly. If you are about to hit a tree and want to make a last minute turn, this variation might be the way to go, as it combines a turn and a flare, thus reducing your speed before impact. A version of this is currently taught in the ISP, so it might be a good way to make your first flat turns before transitioning to the less-braked variety.

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My mighty steed

[billvon 3,111]

>Pull down both toggles to about half brakes, then slowly let one
>toggle up a little bit . . .

What you have described is a braked turn, which is the variety of flat turn the ISP teaches. It's good because it's easy to learn, and it's pretty foolproof. The drawback of this method is that the canopy will "dive" after you release the brakes. This can be dangerous near the ground.

Another way to do it is a true flat turn, which is a turn made to lose as little altitude as possible. It also exits with the same speed you came into it with, so you can immediately flare if needed. A good flat turn will allow you to turn very low and still land safely, so they are worthwhile learning (along with the braked turn you mention above.)

[ChrisL 2]

This is the method I was taught, and it was called "Flat" by the folks that taught it to me, but I have heard both terms used in reference the technique I described.

The method described in the article was not taught to me in my student course, but I believe I will incorporate it into my skills because I like the fact that I can turn without a lot of altitude loss and still have full flaring power

I expect a little more agreement across the board with regard to terminology could avoid some confusion

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My mighty steed

[ianmdrennan 2]

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The drawback of this method is that the canopy will "dive" after you release the brakes. This can be dangerous near the ground.

The drawback of the other method is at least equally (more IMO) dangerous - creating a diving turn if done incorrectly.

My personal beliefs (and what I pass on to others) is: If you're low enough that you needed to do a flat/braked turn, then you don't let your toggles back up. At least not quickly. If you think you have time you can VERY VERY slowly ease them up that way the canopy never really gets diving forward but the person can increase airspeed safely (if altitude permits) for an easier landing.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[billvon 3,111]

>The drawback of the other method is at least equally (more IMO)
>dangerous - creating a diving turn if done incorrectly.

Yes; it must be practiced up high before being used down low.

>My personal beliefs (and what I pass on to others) is: If you're low
>enough that you needed to do a flat/braked turn, then you don't let
>your toggles back up. At least not quickly.

This can be a dangerous thing to do on a high performance canopy. I would not recommend staying in brakes after a low turn unless the canopy can safely be landed with an accuracy approach i.e. remaining in deep brakes until impact.

The flat turn is a high performance manuever that can save your life if done correctly, but injure you if done incorrectly. It must be practiced before use. Once a jumper is proficient at it, though, it will allow you to avoid collisions and change landing areas at very low altitudes, so it's a useful skill to have.

[veter_ 0]

I'm confused. So, there are two methods, both start from going to half-brakes:

1. Turn by pulling the brake on the side you're turning to.

and

2. Turn by releasing the brake on the side opposite to your turn.

So which method gives the least altitude loss AFTER returning to full flight?

So far some experimentation with flat turns gave me an impression that the loss of altitude is about the same as in "swinging turn" if we speak about "full flight -> turn -> full flight" maneuver.

[larsrulz 0]

Quote

I'm confused. So, there are two methods, both start from going to half-brakes:

1. Turn by pulling the brake on the side you're turning to.

and

2. Turn by releasing the brake on the side opposite to your turn.

So which method gives the least altitude loss AFTER returning to full flight?

So far some experimentation with flat turns gave me an impression that the loss of altitude is about the same as in "swinging turn" if we speak about "full flight -> turn -> full flight" maneuver.

Reread BillVon's downsizing checklist for how to do the first one. You start by pulling down on a single toggle and then stop the turn by pulling on the other. This will keep you from losing speed in the turn or diving afterwards! This true flat turn is the one which causes least altitude loss.

Edited to add....if that is the impression you are getting from experimenting, then you are doing them wrong. Ask an experienced canopy pilot or instructor to watch you do a flat turn on landing. Or if you are willing to pay slot, maybe you can convince someone with camera to video you doing them at altitude, but this will require someone who doesn't have a wing loading twice what yours is.

I got a strong urge to fly, but I got no where to fly to. -PF

[ianmdrennan 2]

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The flat turn is a high performance manuever that can save your life if done correctly,

Carving yes thats HP, flat is not HP IMO. Two very different turns IMO. One keeps the canopy over your head and is a low speed approach, the other allows a dramatic change in direction with the canopy off to the side (or carving). A carving turn requires a significant amount of speed to do as the turn destroys your ability to create lift quickly. It's sure as hell not something I'd try with regular straight in speed.

What you're describing is a carving turn but shouldn't be described as such as it creates confusion when compared to a braked flat turn (canopy overhead).

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This can be a dangerous thing to do on a high performance canopy.

I disagree. Of course if you hammer your toggles down all the way on a HP canopy and do a flat turn 100 feet above the ground then yes you're going to have problems, but that is a scenario for a carving turn. If you're coming in straight there's no reason quarter breaks with a flat turn can't be landed just fine.

Different turns for different circumstances.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[veter_ 0]

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You start by pulling down on a single toggle and then stop the turn by pulling on the other. This will keep you from losing speed in the turn or diving afterwards! This true flat turn is the one which causes least altitude loss.

I'm not asking which turn method causes least altitude loss by itself (harness turn in 99% breaks, imho, is the absolute winner). I'm asking which turn method causes least altitude loss when doing compete transition from full flight to turn to full flight again.

In other words, if you find yourself flying downwind a little low and still want to turn 180 into the wind and flare from full flight, what's the best, safest method to turn?

[Scrumpot 1]

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In other words, if you find yourself flying downwind a little low and still want to turn 180 into the wind and flare from full flight, what's the best, safest method to turn?

The best, "safest" method may be instead entirely to NOT TURN at all! ...and accept your downwinder!!!!

That said, please go back & re-read the linked article HERE. Draw your own conclusions based upon your own personal situation (including canopy, WL, and relative skill), then practice ALL the skills on the list and becom proficient in them, so that you can make the right CHOICE, at the right TIME, for the right SITUATION!!

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[AndyMan 7]

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Edited to add....if that is the impression you are getting from experimenting, then you are doing them wrong. Ask an experienced canopy pilot or instructor to watch you do a flat turn on landing. Or if you are willing to pay slot, maybe you can convince someone with camera to video you doing them at altitude, but this will require someone who doesn't have a wing loading twice what yours is. Wink

Actually, it can work. A couple weeks ago Craichead and I were flying side by side under canopy. She was on a bigass Navigator 240 loaded at 0.875 and I was under my Stiletto 150 loaded at 1.7. I was in half brakes and she was in full flight. I really didn't have any troubles at all. We flew like that for about a minute or so until I dropped out with the slightest input into fronts, I was instantly gone. Flying with other people under canopy sure is fun!

_Am

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You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[veter_ 0]

You didn't answer my question.

[Avion 0]

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I believe that either term is correct.
I've heard both used interchangably.

That confusion is exactly why I asked

After having a long discussion here, it has became apparent that they're are two subtly but distinctly different things.

Braked turns, or turn in brakes, are just that.

A true 'Flat Turn' is the low speed version of a high speed 'Carving Turn' It uses the same technique, but with different goals and results.

A 'Flat Turn' is initiated by pulling on only one toggle then, after a proper delay, pulling on the opposite toggle, while still applying input to the first, to keep the turn flat, that is keep the pilot under the canopy rather than swung out from it. After accomplishing enough degrees of turn both toggles are released.

I have been practicing this method for a while, which I have found quite a bit harder to master than simply turning in brakes.

Cheers

Added for clarity:

Flat Turns are initiated from a normal speed full glide.

Carving Turns are initiated from an accelerated speed glide obtained from a high speed approach.

The technique is the same for both turns, only the glide speed is different.

The flat turn will lose altitude during the turn it but will maintain the pilot under the canopy and lose less altitude than a simple toggle turn.

The Carving turn will maintain a constant altitude during the turn, although as you may have seen, the pilot will swing out dramatically from under the canopy.

Lastly, why would someone want to use the more difficult flat turn instead just going into brakes and turning from there? Because the flat turn will, or at least should, retain more forward speed. The benefit of that should be obvious, a better flair when landing.

[Scrumpot 1]

Adhering to within strictly the bounds of the parameters of your question then, and eschewing the BEST ANSWER ( ...back atcha) the answer is the "TRUE" Flat Turn.

The best answer is to:

1. Not get yourself into that situation in the first place, and have already employed your SKILL and prudent preventative measures to have avoided it!

and/or:

2. Have the ability (or attain it) to more correctly assess (and then execute) ALL your options (or potentially OTHER options) that just MAY be more appropriate for that situation! ...One of 'em STILL being to not be afraid (and ABLE) to take that downwinder!

If your NEXT question is going to be something along the lines of what if the winds are "too strong" to accept that downwinder? ....You're gonna bring me right back to my ORIGINAL POINT of NOT "putting yourself there" (or accepting and implimenting ways not to) in the 1st place!

How's that?
Answer your question?? (and then some?)

Blues,
-Grant

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[veter_ 0]

Thanks
E.g.:

Canopy: Spectre
Size: 190 sq.ft
Total weight: 230 lbs
Wing load: 1.2 lbs/sq.ft

180 degree turn from full flight to full flight lost this much altitude:

- Regular (pulling one toggle) : 100ft

- Braked (applying ~50% brakes, then releasing one brake): 75ft

- Flat (pulling one toggle, then the other with some delay): 60ft

Something like that

I'll do the experiments with GPS in 3 weeks and post the results here.

• Quote

[skyyhi 0]

1. I am a NEWBIE in my own mind. . .so just understand that and ask an instructor for assistance. . .

I practice both methods REGULARLY. . .I feel that someday one of these methods may save my life. . .I haven't had to use either in an emergency situation yet. . .thank the good lord. . .lol.

Sometimes one method is more needed and sometimes the other method is more needed. . .if you have to turn 100 feet or less from the ground my mind says the braked turn is the better method. . .If you have more than 100 feet in altitude then I feel the flat turn is the better method. . .the biggest problem with the flat turn is being ANXIOUS. . .doing the maneuver too fast and swinging out from under the canopy. . .that is why I feel the way I do. . .but then again, I am a newbie and not very knowledgable in these things. . .

________________________________________
Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ
FGF #6
Darcy

[billvon 3,111]

>Carving yes thats HP, flat is not HP IMO.

>What you're describing is a carving turn . . .

A carving turn is a high speed manuever intended for fun landings. It is not like a flat turn. A flat turn is a low speed, high performance manuever that lets you turn as low as possible and still land safely.

High performance does not mean high speed. A high performance landing in an aircraft, for example, means low speeds and lots of skill.

>If you're coming in straight there's no reason quarter breaks with a
>flat turn can't be landed just fine.

Agreed. A good flat turn just gives you more options.

[NWPoul 1]

In addition to question what method provide less altitude loss I wonder wich of these turns are faster?

Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly?

[billvon 3,111]

>.if you have to turn 100 feet or less from the ground my mind says
> the braked turn is the better method. . .If you have more than 100
> feet in altitude then I feel the flat turn is the better method. .

If that works for you, great. Once you get good at flat turns, though, you will likely discover that you can turn a lot lower with them than with braked turns and still land safely. As always, practice will let you discover what you can do and what you are comfortable with doing.