Really unimpressed with arrogant twatmuppets.

[ridestrong 1]

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>One thing that has not been adressed is your location. Was it Mile Hi? If
>so that changes everything.

Location listed as "Conifer Bandit DZ, Colorado." Average elevation of Colorado is 6800 feet; let's call it 4000 feet at the DZ.

As an exercise, based purely on 'circumstantial' evidence (i.e. user profile) what canopy size would Brian Germain recommend?

Exit weight is listed as 150lbs, also as 135-140. Exit weight per user profile is 160lbs. Jump #'s are 574 skydives (total jumps - BASE jumps) over 7 years. About 82 skydives a year that might provide relevant canopy experience; presumably no BASE jumps were made with small ellipticals.

Canopy is a full elliptical, about as aggressive as they come.

Germain's chart only goes up to 500 jumps, so let's look at the <500 jump row:

Absolute maximum size 120 square feet. Compensations:
4000 foot DZ - +20 square feet
Less than 100 jumps a year - +15 square feet
Fully elliptical - add one size

So per Germain for a <500 jump jumper, minimum would be about 170 square feet, given the above assumptions and no additional information.

Recommending 1:1 wing loading is fine, but it seems like overkill even at Mile-Hi or Conifer Bandit DZ especially at near 500 jumps. This would make more sense for someone who only jumps at sea level and has little or no experience at higher altitudes.

My guess is that this was at Mile-Hi by some of the previous comments. You (Calvin) should keep jumping there, that guy your talking about is actually pretty cool if you get to know him, but otherwise he can be a bit stand-offish. Regardless there are a lot of fun people up there to jump with.

Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[billvon 3,107]

>Recommending 1:1 wing loading is fine, but it seems like overkill even
>at Mile-Hi or Conifer Bandit DZ especially at near 500 jumps. This would
>make more sense for someone who only jumps at sea level . . .

So recommending 1:1 wingloading is fine for sea level, but is overkill for Mile-Hi? I think you have that exactly backwards.

[ridestrong 1]

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>Recommending 1:1 wing loading is fine, but it seems like overkill even
>at Mile-Hi or Conifer Bandit DZ especially at near 500 jumps. This would
>make more sense for someone who only jumps at sea level . . .

So recommending 1:1 wingloading is fine for sea level, but is overkill for Mile-Hi? I think you have that exactly backwards.

I'm saying it makes more sense for people who are jumping at a higher altitude that haven't experienced it before, ie someone from sea level coming to Mile-Hi may want to up size for example.

1:1 seems like overkill at near 500 jumps either way, more so at sea level.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[davelepka 4]

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I'm saying it makes more sense for people who are jumping at a higher altitude that haven't experienced it before, ie someone from sea level coming to Mile-Hi may want to up size for example.

The idea is that the descent rate and forward speed of the canopies will both go up in the thin air. Even if you made your first, and every jump, at Mile-Hi, you would still be required to deal with those higher values. Just because it's all you know doesn't make the force of an impact any less.

In regards to what Bill posted, it was an example, not a suggestion. For starters, 1 to 1 with 500 jumps was arrived at by factoring in the altitude and the type of canopy jumped (a Velo in this case). Both of those factors call for a lower WL, and that's how he arrived at 1 to 1.

Even then, 1 to 1 is the 'general' idea that the WL chart provides. Let's say that you factor in that jumpers GL experience, and that maybe he's an above average canopy pilot. In that case, maybe the 1.3WL he was jumping at wasn't so bad.

But the point was that the jumper who made the 'rude' comments doesn't know about the guy's GL experience or abilities. All he had to go on was 'common knowledge' and, as shown by the WL chart, common knowledge states that a guy with 500 jumps at 4000' or 5000' msl should not be jumping a Velocity at 1.35. With this in mind, the 'rude' comments don't seem so rude, and it becomes easier to see the veiwpoint of the guy who made them.

[billvon 3,107]

>someone from sea level coming to Mile-Hi may want to up size for example.

Agreed. But jumping a given canopy at altitude does not confer any additional abilities. A 170lb newbie jumping a 170 sq ft canopy is much worse off at altitude than at sea level, no matter what altitude he started at.

>1:1 seems like overkill at near 500 jumps either way,

It may be for a 200lb jumper - but it is much less overkill for a 140lb jumper. They face significantly more challenges.

[ridestrong 1]

Overall I'm on the same page as you guys.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[ChrisL 2]

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going to an AA meeting and saying how much you hate drunks.

Whats wrong with doing this? I cant count the number of times I've shared in a meeting about how much I hate drunks

__

My mighty steed

[Squeak 17]

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going to an AA meeting and saying how much you hate drunks.

Whats wrong with doing this? I cant count the number of times I've shared in a meeting about how much I hate drunks

I dont hate all drunks, I only hate the drunks who were like me when i was drunk.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[danielcroft 2]

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Whats wrong with doing this? I cant count the number of times I've shared in a meeting about how much I hate drunks

I didn't say there was anything wrong with it, but you're probably not going to get a positive response unless you know all the other drunks

[ufk22 33]

OK, Calvin, look at this from my point of view.
You walk up to me and ask how to pack a very high performance canopy, telling me you have 500 jumps and don't swoop.
1. Low jump numbers for the canopy
2. Don't swoop
3. DON'T KNOW HOW TO PACK IT!!!!!
Forgive me, but most everything you've said shows a level of ignorance that I can't ignore.
Just the fact that you don't swoop tells me that you shouldn't be jumping this canopy. After all the incident reports I've seen over the years, the phrase "He/she is normally a very conservative canopy pilot" show up in a lot of landing deaths. A person that doesn't swoop is far more likely to get into trouble when in a tighter corner than they planned and then making a radical manuver to get out. NOT being a swooper actually increases your chances of killing yourself under this type of canopy. The recovery arc on a Velocity is very long. In a situation that your stelletto will plane out of, the Velocity will not.
The fact that there have been over 50 replies to your post should show you that a lot of people ARE concerned over your safety and that your opinions about jumpers attitudes may be mis-directed.
The fact that someone who really understands what this canopy is capable of told you not to fly it and you resented his "attitude" tells me that you probably will be another dark spot at some DZ someday.
TOUGH LOVE.....?????

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[demoknite 0]

Since when did jump numbers become a requirement to pack a certain parachute? I know riggers who jump 170s and only jump a few times a month because they are packing mostly, but no one would think twice about them packing a high performance chutes (and the reserves to match). What about the packers at DZs who arent even FAA certified packing parachutes that no one thinks twice about?

[stratostar 5]

Because to be legal in the USA those packer are under supervision of a ticketed rigger who is responsibility for those pack jobs. And myself as a rigger who has done a lot of supervision of the packing mat, I can tell you that under my ticket you will be tested and prove you can do the work, you don't walk in and start packing.

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I know riggers who jump 170s and only jump a few times a month because they are packing mostly, but no one would think twice about them packing a high performance chutes

A ticket holder packing all kinds of parachutes has already proven to the FAA they pack. you can go get your ticket and no one will think twice about you packing HPC's too.

But if your like the OP you might take some heat.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[ridestrong 1]

Quote

OK, Calvin, look at this from my point of view.
You walk up to me and ask how to pack a very high performance canopy, telling me you have 500 jumps and don't swoop.
1. Low jump numbers for the canopy
2. Don't swoop
3. DON'T KNOW HOW TO PACK IT!!!!!
Forgive me, but most everything you've said shows a level of ignorance that I can't ignore.
Just the fact that you don't swoop tells me that you shouldn't be jumping this canopy. After all the incident reports I've seen over the years, the phrase "He/she is normally a very conservative canopy pilot" show up in a lot of landing deaths. A person that doesn't swoop is far more likely to get into trouble when in a tighter corner than they planned and then making a radical manuver to get out. NOT being a swooper actually increases your chances of killing yourself under this type of canopy. The recovery arc on a Velocity is very long. In a situation that your stelletto will plane out of, the Velocity will not.
The fact that there have been over 50 replies to your post should show you that a lot of people ARE concerned over your safety and that your opinions about jumpers attitudes may be mis-directed.
The fact that someone who really understands what this canopy is capable of told you not to fly it and you resented his "attitude" tells me that you probably will be another dark spot at some DZ someday.
TOUGH LOVE.....?????

Tough love, with a dash of dickhead.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[ianmdrennan 2]

Quote

Since when did jump numbers become a requirement to pack a certain parachute? I know riggers who jump 170s and only jump a few times a month because they are packing mostly, but no one would think twice about them packing a high performance chutes (and the reserves to match). What about the packers at DZs who arent even FAA certified packing parachutes that no one thinks twice about?

To pack a parachute - doesn't matter.

However, you're missing the point. The jumper was USING the parachute - the packing question just drew attention to that fact. Thereafter the actions of the pilot in question were under the assumption that Calvin wasn't just packing it.

Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Calvin19 0]

Kinda wished I had not posted it, and kinda hoping the thread fades away.

Thanks ufk22. Since reading this thread I have figured out what I got wrong, I think.
First and most importantly I was under the impression that me under the velo 111 wsa not that far of a stretch for a jumper with ~500 jumps loaded at 1.35. I was explained the Germain equation and learned that it was a long stretch. My bad.
Though my time under similar size and performance ground launch canopies in what I consider more demanding circumstances is not considered expressly helpful in the skydiving environment (at least to this group helping me online now and the jumper who blew me off)in your eyes, I am still just a 500 jump muppet.


-note that I understand the following means nothing in the opinion of you or any other skydiver in me flying this canopy-
the fact that I "do not swoop" simply means that I do not intentionally do 360 turns and build tons of speed at the ground and try to surf for long distances. On the other hand, some would consider what I do with similar canopies "swooping", only nothing more than a 90 or 180 turn to bring myself close to terrain, and almost never to land. I feel I have full understanding of the "dive recovery" and heading lock of the canopies I fly. My statement of "I do not swoop" really only means I do not do a huge turn and go for the gates and then distance and speed on any landing. I concentrate on fluid mountain lines and airborne acro.

further, and again I understand that this has no bearing whatsoever on my eligibility to regularly skydive a velo 111, I regularly foot launch a 10m or 12m Ozone Bullet or Bullet GT 9.8 (90^2' projected, essentially a 90 square foot canopy) with 10 or 15 pounds of ballast and sometimes skis. (making my loading there 1.66-1.88) on a fully cross braced fully elliptical flattened canopy.


finally, people have referenced my info in my profile on here, "conifer bandit DZ" etc. that is my home town, and my friends and I regularly jump into there. the altitude of the different LZs is 7800-9,800' MSL and we almost always use .58-.77 wing loadings there.

hope this thread goes away and I don't get my ass kicked when I show up at the DZ this weekend. peace.

[ufk22 33]

[
The fact that someone who really understands what this canopy is capable of told you not to fly it and you resented his "attitude" tells me that you probably will be another dark spot at some DZ someday.
TOUGH LOVE.....?????

Tough love, with a dash of dickhead.

OK, just took time to read the rest of the thread. Sorry to pile on, just have seen to many low-time "overskilled" guys hurt themselves (or worse).
p.s. I usually use more than a "dash"......

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[airtwardo 7]

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1:1 seems like overkill at near 500 jumps either way, more so at sea level.

Well ~

I have about 7 times that many jumps and stayin' at about 1:1 is what I consider
'under-kill'

...as in, over 33 years in the sport with no broken bones.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[livendive 8]

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Since, as you say, he was not rude, why are you all in a huff? You didn't provide the whole story to him, and then get mad when he is clearly trying to look out for your safety. I don't get it.

My advice is to cowboy up.

I was told by several other jumpers in the area that heard the conversation "not to worry about it" because the guy can be a skygod deuchebag. I had just, never came across such an obvious example.

He was not "rude", sure, I said and meant it. It was just misplaced "advice".
I kinda want to meet the guy, formally I mean. I was told he is #4,5? in the world swooping. I would like to fly with him someday. and feel bad I did not confront him at the time. I was just taken aback by, well, arrogant ignorance.

If you formally meet him, you should probably thank him. According to what you told him, you were doing something stupid. He chose not to facilitate your stupidity. Good on him.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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1:1 seems like overkill at near 500 jumps either way, more so at sea level.

Well ~

I have about 7 times that many jumps and stayin' at about 1:1 is what I consider
'under-kill'

...as in, over 33 years in the sport with no broken bones.

I know the OP of this thread ...

I have skydived with Calvin, I have BASE jumped with Calvin and I have even flown in airplanes with Calvin. LOL ... if you can believe it, I have been in the airplane with Calvin when he was PIC during an emergency scenario where we lost power to our engines ... and guess what? I am still alive. Calvin is a commercially rated aviator and knows a thing or two about flight.

I am not concerned with Calvin flying a Velo 111. Calvin is not a small person but he is not big person either. In this case the Velo 111 is underloaded compared to how a cross-braced canopy can be loaded. If Calvin was swooping this Velo 111 without proper swoop training, then I might be concerned. But it sounds like Calvin was NOT swooping and all he asked was "Is there something special I must do when packing this canopy", in which case my response to Calvin would have been "no ... just pack it like any other skydiving canopy you know".

The cross-braced canopy is an incredibly efficient wing. Calvin may not have the appropriate swoop training to be swooping this Velo 111, but he is a competent skydiving canopy pilot, a competent BASE jumping canopy pilot and a competent aviator (there could be 4 dead today if Calvin had panicked during our aircraft emergency we had a few years back). Now I am not going to judge the alleged "twatmuppet". I am sure the alleged "twatmuppet" is competent themselves and had their own reasons for their response. But we do need to remember the "try not to judge a book by it's cover" saying. If the alleged "twatmuppet" knew what some of us know about Calvin, then this thread would never have been needed and the only response would have been "No Calvin there is nothing special to packing a Velo 111, just pack it like any other skydiving canopy".

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[linebckr83 3]

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Quote

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1:1 seems like overkill at near 500 jumps either way, more so at sea level.

Well ~

I have about 7 times that many jumps and stayin' at about 1:1 is what I consider
'under-kill'

...as in, over 33 years in the sport with no broken bones.

I know the OP of this thread ...

This is where things change. You know him, you know his canopy abilities, you know he doesn't swoop. In that case, if he came up to you and asked the same question, you'd reply just as you stated you would.

But it's a totally different scenario when you don't know the individual. If I was an accomplished swooper, minding my own business packing my rig and someone I had never seen before walked up, said they had 500 jumps, and asked about packing a velo, I'd say the same damn thing. Would I ask the guy if he's swooping or flying straight in approaches? Hell no, that's not what the velo is for. I think its natural to assume anyone holding that canopy is proficient at swooping to say the least. I would assume that he has only 500 jumps and is so new to this discipline that he doesn't even know how to pack the canopy he is attempting to use.

Now that wasn't the case, but I can sure see how he saw it that way and I would respond the same exact way unless more information was given.

"Are you coming to the party?
Oh I'm coming, but I won't be there!"
Flying Hellfish #828
Dudist #52

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Of course a canopy like a Velocity is made for swooping and the vast majority of people who fly cross-braced canopies are swoopers. But the cross-braced canopy is an incredibly efficient wing. One could even argue why more people do not use them. Of course there are valid reasons to counteract this question. You definitely do not want a newbie under a wing that could malfunction on opening more often than their more docile traditional canopy counterparts and you do not want a newbie under a wing that goes south during a malfunction faster than other wings. So I am not saying everyone should be under a cross-braced canopy. But it is an incredible efficient wing and as long as people are told ahead of time "this is how the canopy will perform in a non-swoop landing", there is no reason why a competent canopy pilot could not land a cross-braced canopy on a straight in approach without "OMG they are going to die" coming from the peanut gallery.

Once again I do not want to judge the alleged "twatmuppet". I was not there, I do not know what one person said to another person, I do not know what replies were given. I do not know what response was coming from the DZ peanut gallery. But it is not like Calvin is new to the DZ. Unless the turnover rate at this DZ has radically changed and the people jumping there today are 100% not the same people who were there 7 years ago when Calvin first got into the sport, you have to think someone else at the DZ would know who Calvin is and know a little about his background.

I believe Calvin knows me well enough to know I would smack him in the head if I ever saw him do some of the stupid things I did when I was learning how to swoop (funny how we learn off of our mistakes if we are lucky enough to survive those mistakes), but as I said "I am not worried about Calvin flying a Velo 111".

It is not solely the canopy we need to be focusing on. It is how the person is flying the canopy.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[ridestrong 1]

We are doing a heli jump tomorrow at Erie airport at 3pm if you want in. Will be at Mile-Hi all day before that.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[diablopilot 2]

Knowing who the twatmuppet is helpful.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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Knowing who the twatmuppet is helpful.

Earlier in the day I did not know who the alleged twatmuppet was. But I now know who it is.

Not that Calvin should be getting a "get out of jail for free card" just because he is a friend on mine. But Calvin is a competent pilot and I am still not worried about him flying a Velo 111 just as long as he is like anyone of us and does not do something dumb while under a high performance wing. Calvin has admitted that he could have handled things better. But this does not need to be blown out of proportion (especially here on the internet). I would be willing to bet that the other jumper and Calvin could come to respect each other (maybe even like each other) for the cool things both of them have done in this world. Neither one of them is your average everyday DZ bumpkin.

So let's all kiss and make up ... well maybe not kiss, but you know what I mean.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Calvin19 0]

kiss.... well... no.

but yes, I would love to make up. not that we were in a fight, I just blew it way out of proportion. my fault.

also, he is not a twatmuppet. I was just pissed and picked an insult. It IS a great insult, but lets leave it to people who deserve it.