Does two stage flare automatically become a habit even if you never been taught it?

[mdrejhon 8]

Hi,

On my jump number 59, I had a buddy video my landing. This was my third jump under a Sabre 170 (first jump on my own new rig ... a test jump before purchase ... not a rental Sabre 170. The canopy had only 175 jumps and flared much better than the rental Sabre 170). This landings was videoed (I only got the DVD right now). I knew my flare was slightly high, but that the landing was pretty soft on my feet. I initially felt I had made a good save on an early flare because it was really gentle on my feet. But then I saw the video...

Now that I have the DVD, I played it over and I watched my flare carefuly in this one, and noticed something interesting.

I noticed I paused my flare at between one-third to one-half brakes at one point (when I realized I flared a little bit high), then resumed it as the ground started approaching again, and it was soft on my feet although I had to do some steps forward (then I had to run towards the canopy due to wind). Clearly, I didn't finish my flare in this video (I ended at about 3/4) so I didn't stop all my horizontal motion, but vertical motion was gone or extremely soft. (I'll work on finishing the flare as part of my future hundreds of jumps getting familiar solely with this canopy :) ) ... But my concern here is my slowdown/pause in a flare, I paused for approximately 1 second mid-flare before resuming. Canopy did not surge forward (I did not let up on the toggles).

I think I flared a bit high, since this nearly-new Sabre 170 had better flare (and stopped my vertical descent more quickly) than the more well-used rental Sabre 170 I had previously jumped in the last two jumps. (I pulled at 5K and play with the canopy including many test flares and stalls, at altitude)

I'll be bringing the laptop to the dropzone to play the video back and showing instructors at the dropzone next time I go in a slow-reply. At least one had earlier seen it (But without slow-replay, on the small camcorder screen) and only got a comment that I simply flared slightly high and may have missed that pause in my flare on the small screen...

But I'm pretty curious. Am I developing a dangerous and bad habit, if I am automatically pausing my flare sometimes? Or, from what I am reading, it seems to be a natural part of a 2-stage flare and I did make a successful save on a too-early flare?. I've never been taught the 2-stage before, but out of habit, I seem to end up doing an approximation of 2-stage instinctively on some of my landings, I am instinctively slowing down or pausing my flare if my vertical descent suddenly stops faster than expected (flared too high)... I do notice some of this is mentioned somewhat in Brian Germain's book (Parachute and its Pilot). I don't always insert a slight pause in mid-flare, only when I notice vertical descent slows faster than expected with still a few feet between me and the ground. A school of thought says I shouldn't be reactive like that, and should be more proactive (Time the flare properly the first time around)

Anyway, I know I'll take advice with a grain of salt here, but I'm doing some research as some sources say it's a bad habit, and some sources say it's the beginning of learning of a 2-stage flare. I may not be supposed to be doing this at all at my jump numbers. Either way, I definitely will aim to "fix" or "improve" it regardless :-)

Or am I overanalyzing things?

(This is a strictly straight-in approach)

[mdrejhon 8]

(I only found out about this just now) ... I noticed that some dropzones teach students the 2-stage flare. Not all of them though. So my jump numbers indeed aren't too low.

I don't know how many times I did the 2-stage, but I wouldn't be surprised if I have done it about 5 or so times in the past (I know I've done it three times at least), and nobody complained about those landings except the occasional "you flared a little high" comment. One of the times (When I was only recently off student canopies), I did let up the toggles slightly accidentally (during my flare pause) and the canopy surged slightly, and somebody rightfully explained to me that wasn't a safe thing to do during a flare. However, my flare pauses seem much better now, in the goal of savings my feet/legs from discomfort when I notice I flare too early on those occasions... Ultimately, my flare timing will improve in the first place.

(Just really need to know if 2-stage is a proper way of saving myself from an early flare, my legs tell me it seemed to be a succesful save on Jump 59...)

[Zep 0]

Your legs may tell you it was OK, But if you don't get out of the habbit of doing it
further on down the road, jumping in higher winds you'll get dumped on your butt,

Gone fishing

[mdrejhon 8]

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Your legs may tell you it was OK, But if you don't get out of the habbit of doing it
further on down the road, jumping in higher winds you'll get dumped on your butt,

Actually, my landings seem to be better in higher winds. It's the low winds I have more problems with.

[Dougiefresh 0]

There's nothing wrong with pausing your flare if you're too high. It means you're paying attention to what's going on instead of just thinking "herecomesthegroundflareNOW!"

It's a good idea to show the experts and see what they say though.

Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. --Douglas Adams

[Zep 0]

It's normall for the newer jumpers to have some trouble with low or nil winds,
Thats because your coming in faster an the eye isn't used to guaging the
relation of speed vs hight, IE: flare to early or flare to late, Practice will take care of that.

When jumping in higher winds an you flare to high, stopping your flare for a second or two
will result in your canopy running out of steam, When you restart the flare
the wind may be enough to push you backwards,


I wish I was elequent enough to explain it better,
I'm shure someone on the board will explain better

Suffice to say at your level it's not a good habbit to get into




Zep.

Gone fishing

[sundevil777 102]

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Just really need to know if 2-stage is a proper way of saving myself from an early flare

Yes, definitely.

If you watch a lot of others, I think you will notice a tendency to have a staged flare, even if they don't completely stop in between.

I think you probably are overanalyzing. Your canopy is more forgiving of flare technique than you may think.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[174fps 1]

Mark,
don't get tied up with terminology.
the "two stage flare" is used to differentiate more advanced flaring from the student pull down your toggles 12' to 15' above ground.
flaring is more of a feel thing than a mechanical movement.
From full flight you pull down your toggles untill you feel lift in your leg straps, hold that position as your forward speed diminishes
then finish your flare.
Too much initial input will cause you to " pop up", too little and you will
rapidly approach the ground and be forced to "dig" to get lift.
good flares are executed smoothly,
every jump is a learning experience.
Judging when to start, learning the sight picture takes time and jumps.
Work on it one jump at a time, work on it with your instructors.
Have fun.

Andrew

[mdrejhon 8]

I do notice some people call it the "dyanmic flare" rather than "2-stage", since sometime the pause is shorter and longer, and other times it's merely a dynamic regulation of flare speed.

Yeah, I noticed lots of others do some kind of dynamic flaring, but I'm mostly ignoring that -- because some of them do it while swooping, and I'm not supposed to do that sort of thing at my jump numbers. I'd be stupid to be copying their technique. What I am doing apparently is happening out of habit when I notice I flared a bit high.

I've had a bunch of great landings with great smooth flares already, I only do the pause sometimes.. Just have to pratice so I am able to do these more often in all wind conditions.

I've only had 5 landings under a Sabre 170, so all in due time. (2 rental before test jump, 1 test jump of my rig, and 2 after I purchased it) Some of the landings were fun and great when winds were good. Most importantly, all 5 were more gentle than under the rentals even for the imperfect landings (the zero-winder was a rather exciting one).

[Hooknswoop 19]

When you begin your flare isn't as important as when you finish your flare. You can start the flare at 12 feet or 15 feet, as long as you finish the flare just before touch down, you'll get a good flare. A 2-stage flare is a bit of a misnomer, but it gets the point across not to yankt he taoggles down as far as you can at 10 feet to flare. a 2-stage fflare is the process of pulling the toggle down, increasing and/or decreasing the rate of the toggle pull as necessary to fly the canopy to a gentle stop just as your feet touch the ground. A canopy that is flying just above it's stall speed requires an agressive 1-stage flare. A canopy with some excess airspeed above it's stall speed will allow the pilot to bleed off that extra airspeed before their feeet touch down with a more drawn out flare motion.

Imagine a C-182 in ground effect over the runway at 110 knots with no power. the pilot will gently pull back on the yoke as airspeed bleeds of, staying just above the ground until lift runs out and the pane settles on the runway. If the same C-182 is in ground effect above the runway just above stall speed, the pilot will pull back the yoke, the aircraft will stall and settle on the runway. This is the difference between the 1 and 2-stage flare.

Derek

[mdrejhon 8]

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When jumping in higher winds an you flare to high, stopping your flare for a second or two
will result in your canopy running out of steam, When you restart the flare
the wind may be enough to push you backwards

I wish I was elequent enough to explain it better,
I'm shure someone on the board will explain better

I think I understand.

Basically, my forward speed is already bled off because of the braking of a partial flare, but that my vertical speed is now resuming because of gravity because I paused my flare...and when I resume the flare, I no longer have enough forward speed to overcome the winds. I fly backwards as a result, when I try to zero-out my vertical speed with the resumed flare. (Note: This has never happened to me before. My last backwards landing was under a Manta, the flare was a single motion, and that landing was standup running backwards.)

Right?

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Suffice to say at your level it's not a good habbit to get into

You're ultimately right (cuz, timing the flare right is important) .... The question now becomes, if I am doing it about 10 to 15% of the time, is it considered a "habit"... Considering my gradual progression from a student canopy onto my Sabre 170 and stepper Sabre's in between. I guess time will tell, now that I am going to stick only to this canopy for the next two years, 200 jump minimum...

Ah well, I'll definitely tune into my canopy as I jump more. (Only 5 jumps on this brand-size combo, and only 3 jumps with it being my own rig). I have no plans to change the canopy anymore for the next two years at least... So this will give me plenty of time to get really familiar with one canopy.

[Zep 0]

>I think I understand.

Basically, my forward speed is already bled off because of the braking of a partial flare, but that my vertical speed is now resuming because of gravity because I paused my flare...and when I resume the flare, I no longer have enough forward speed to overcome the winds. I fly backwards as a result, when I try to zero-out my vertical speed with the resumed flare. (Note: This has never happened to me before. My last backwards landing was under a Manta, the flare was a single motion, and that landing was standup running backwards.) <


Great. you understood what I was trying to say.

Gone fishing

[mdrejhon 8]

I guess it really truly boils down to someone who said:

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Truly superior pilots are those who use their superior judgment to avoid those situations where they might have to use their superior skills.

Basically 2-stage (or "dynamic flare" or whatever) is apparently a legitimate skill but I shouldn't have to use it excessively to save an early flare, at least for the straight-in approaches I'm doing. Time the start of the flare correctly in the first place around if I can. At least almost everyone can agree on that. Right, eh?

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Basically, my forward speed is already bled off because of the braking of a partial flare, but that my vertical speed is now resuming because of gravity because I paused my flare...and when I resume the flare, I no longer have enough forward speed to overcome the winds. I fly backwards as a result, when I try to zero-out my vertical speed with the resumed flare. (Note: This has never happened to me before. My last backwards landing was under a Manta, the flare was a single motion, and that landing was standup running backwards.)

Remeber, your canopy flys the same regardless of the wind, the difference is your ground speed. If you are coming straight down at full flight because your airspeed equals the wind speed, when you flare, the canopy slows down and, even though your airspeed is positive, your ground speed is negative, you are backing up.

Fly the canopy.

Derek

[mdrejhon 8]

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even though your airspeed is positive, your ground speed is negative, you are backing up.

Right. I do understand the concept of windspeed versus groundspeed.

I definitely noticed this behaviour during a couple of backward landings on my Manta.

[billvon 3,080]

>Am I developing a dangerous and bad habit, if I am automatically
>pausing my flare sometimes?

Not necessarily. A two-stage flare (I hate that term BTW) is part of a progression in learning to flare a parachute. A new student flares all at once, and that works well under large lightly-loaded canopies. A more advanced 'two stage' flare means that there are two parts to the flare - the stopping-vertical-descent part and the maintaining flight at 6 inches part. It's not a pause or a fixed position, but rather a change in pressure/aggression in flaring to achieve those two different flight conditions.

The goal in all of this is to get rid of the distinctions. You eventually want a smooth flare that starts gradually, gets your vertical speed to zero an inch above the ground, then holds it there until the canopy stalls. It's all one motion, a dynamic one that changes on every jump. The two-stage flare is a step towards that.

[Avion 0]

You've identified a controversial topic, the two stage flare. Its purpose, as you might have already noticed, depends upon who your talking with. Spizzarko and Skratch Garrison have both written some good things to read about it.

I was taught the two stage flare in AFF. According to my instructors its purpose is to prevent students from flaring completely while they are still to high. Also, once through AFF the flare should become a single smooth continuous motion as you get better at landing.

There are two things that need to be done. First it is necessary to stop your vertical speed. Second it is necessary to stop your horizontal speed. Some people like Brian Germain say, the first part of the two stage flare should stop the vertical decent and the second stage should stop your horizontal motion.

After reading Brian's book, I tried developing a well defined two stage approach to landing, and had some difficulty with keeping it consistent. I went from flaring too high to flaring to low, and sliding my feet across the ground like Brian describes, but a little to low. Sometime, I sank all the way down to my butt, and once and a while I failed to pull it back up to a standing finish.

I talked it over with an instructor. Basically he said that it was like I was in a car and driving up to a stop sign and jamming on the brakes three feet away from the sign as I was trying to start the first stage of the landing at three feet above the ground.

So, what do people do? They drive up to a stop sign and moderately apply the brakes at a reasonable distance away from the sign, thereby allowing themselves the option of applying the brakes either harder or softer as conditions require. I reconsidered my approach in this view, and decided to start flaring a little higher maybe 10' and curving gently into a plane out, rather than abruptly as before. This seems easier all around, both in judging when to start and in keeping it consistent. As it was, I was being too demanding of my precision and allowing myself too little margin for error. That's what was making it difficult.

All in all, I seem to have discovered what Spizzarko means by a dynamic flare: One smooth continuous action that varies dynamically in intensity as the landing requires.

Cheers

[kallend 2,113]

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(I only found out about this just now) ... I noticed that some dropzones teach students the 2-stage flare. Not all of them though. So my jump numbers indeed aren't too low.

Indeed. I was taught a three stage flare (shoulders, chest, all the way down), from jump #1. Our student canopies were Sabres.

As you gain experience it all becomes integrated so you are flying the canopy all the way to touchdown rather than doing something learned by rote .

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[mdrejhon 8]

It is my intention to watch my "finishing the flare", bleeding off my horizontal motion. So I can land in zero winders without having to slide in my butt or trip over running it out (That happened on the sunset load under my new rig...the wind just suddenly died after I went up. Windsock was completely vertical. I would have skipped the load since I wanted to get a few jumps on the 170 first before trying a zerowinder...)

Earlier, I sometimes flared a little low too (and that was under a Sabre 190) when landing a little bit out, and slightly hurt my ankle for a few minutes that way. (It only got a whap on hard dried-mud ground, and was fine after a bit.) That's why I have been erring on the side of "starting" the flare a little higher, sometimes a bit too high now, but I have really noticed that it's much easier to recover from a high flare (using a dynamic flare) than a low flare, as long as I "finish" the flare properly depending on situation... I'll tune it back into the sweet spot, now that I'm sticking to the same canopy...

What I do really notice is that there's amazing flare power on my Sabre 170 that I will be learning to take full advantage of. I'm looking forward to it!

[Avion 0]

My big Spectre has a surprising amount of flare too. Mostly between 1/4 and 3/4, above or below that and little happens. I'm amazed that I can get 50-60 foot plane out with it. It's so awsome when that happens a foot off the ground Now with my more gentle approach that might decrease somewhat, but the technique is safer and more consistent.

BTW I did a lot of studying before AFF and was expecting a three stage flare. It seems that basically the two stage is the same as the three stage with stages 2 and 3 combined. Along the same lines of thought, a single smooth flare just blends stage one and two together, overlaps them some what, so that there's a lack of any certain point where one could say that's where stage one ends and stage two begins, but rather a transitional period of some length where stage one is ending while stage two is beginning.


Two Stage Flare:

|-Stage One-||---Stage Two----------------|



Dynamic Flare:

|---Stage One----|
. . . . . . . . . |-------Stage Two-----------|


With the first way, I was attempting to get a rather abrupt angular change in my line of flight from a decending glide to a level plane out. The second way, I just begin flaring somewhat higher and slower, which results in a more gentle curve into horizontal flight.

Cheers,

[packerboy 3]

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I talked it over with an instructor. Basically he said that it was like I was in a car and driving up to a stop sign and jamming on the brakes three feet away from the sign as I was trying to start the first stage of the landing at three feet above the ground.

So, what do people do? They drive up to a stop sign and moderately apply the brakes at a reasonable distance away from the sign, thereby allowing themselves the option of applying the brakes either harder or softer as conditions require. I reconsidered my approach in this view, and decided to start flaring a little higher maybe 10' and curving gently into a plane out, rather than abruptly as before. This seems easier all around, both in judging when to start and in keeping it consistent. As it was, I was being too demanding of my precision and allowing myself too little margin for error. That's what was making it difficult.


Cheers

Exactly.. that is a perfect analogy. Think of this analogy when you watch good canopy pilots land and canopy pilots that land just well enough to not hurt themselves. You will find the latter are inconsistent and unpredictable, and look like they are going to hurt themselves right up untill they miraculously pull off another one.

--------------------------------------------------
In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[mdrejhon 8]

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Exactly.. that is a perfect analogy. Think of this analogy when you watch good canopy pilots land and canopy pilots that land just well enough to not hurt themselves. You will find the latter are inconsistent and unpredictable, and look like they are going to hurt themselves right up untill they miraculously pull off another one.

Hey Trevor,

I've noticed that but have been trying to ignore that since it's mainly swoopers that pull of those unpredictable-looking flares.

Jumped 7 times. Some of my best landings this weekend was when I reminded myself "finish the flare, finish the flare, finish the damn flare, wait for the ground". On a couple of those, I remember my flares varied in speed dynamically to maintain distance above the ground until my horizontal speed was gone. I didn't even have to step forward after touching down on some of those. Fun 40-50 feet ground turfs in straightin approaches. I think about two of my landings could have been better, one of them was when I stabbed my legs near the target followed by running. (my first peas landing under my new Sabre 170, and it was still a standup). The other was a zero-wind landing where I gently tumbled to my knees on the grass. Still, 6 out of 7 standups (some only zero, one or two steps) aren't bad. Surprisingly, I find this canopy more forgiving than my former rental Sabre 190 -- though that's probably because of its excellent condition from low jump numbers and the toggles stall point is better for my needs (full brakes rather than 2/3rd brakes).

Darn zero-winders. I gotta get that nailed eventually Pratice makes perfect...

And packerboy....I jumped my first packjobs this weekend! 5 of them, in fact. Yes, I bought beer. (BTW, your beer bottles are in a bag in the the fridge, with your name on it... since you'll be there next weekend ).

[Avion 0]

I love zero winders
All of the swooper at my home DZ come in with graceful curving entries into the swoop. They make it look so easy.

While checking out another DZ before I started jumping, I saw people abruptly front riser diving from maybe 100-200' almost straight down then abruptly yanking the toggles to dig out of the corner they just put themselves in. One guy yanked his front risers so hard that he continued moving horizontally as the canopy suddenly dived vertically, resulting in his lines going slack. He then started to drop, and lucky for him, fell past his canopy and re-tensioned his lines in a wild jerky display. He managed to plane out the following dive, and exclaimed when back on the ground, "That was f'ing scary!" To which I promptly replied,"That looked f'ing scary!"

[mdrejhon 8]

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I love zero winders

Oh ya, that sounds like a scary display. I do wanna try swooping eventually, someday, but I'll let a good canopy coach (ala Brian Germain or Scott Miller)teach me to do it properly and more conservatively than some other swoopers. I do know barely enough background from Germain's book to say that I don't think Brian Germain condones that type of lesser-safety-margin type of swooping, at least for a guy like myself ...

Back on subject. Yeah, I'll love zero winders as soon as I get a standup landing in zero wind under the 170. (I have only tried two zero-wind landings under my new rig) I almost have one now. I've fully finished my flare on the last one, but I still had too much horizontal motion left. Got to adjust my flaring differently next time for that. Then again, it all balances out. 6 out of 7 standups, I can live with. It'll get better.

Great medium-wind landings with a small pop and zero steps forward at the end are fun too.