We need a permanent "I told you so" Thread in the incident forum

[kallend 2,113]

Quote

Quote

I think Bob Holler would disagree.

For those who don't know, Bob was an extremely competent, safety-conscious, jumper who was killed when he was hit from behind, while under canopy, by a reckless, over-confident swooper.

Kevin K.

Who was by no stretch of the imagination a low timer busting the WL guidelines.

AFF JumpMaster / Tandem Master / Instructor / Camera Flyer / Demo Jumper (Pro) / RW Coach / Rigger
U.S.P.A. National Director
6300+ Skydives

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[D22369 0]

What about all the 1,000 + jump people who hook themselves in?

There are lots of them but nobody says they were under the wrong wing.

Perhaps it is not such a good feeling to gloat about a more experienced jumper fucking up ***

yup, A high jump number does not prevent mistakes, running a high wingload adds more risk to every jump you make, things happen fast, but the more jumps you have gives you a larger bubble of awareness that will help you identify a problem or mistake sooner and correct it... most of the time

where do you get gloating? Its disgust at a situation that just keeps on repeating over the years.

Jumping a high w/l at low jumps is like purchasing a formula one team, then firing the driver and taking his place because you have never had an accident and believe your lack of incidents proves that your qualified.

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[DocPop 1]

Quote

where do you get gloating?

"I told you so" sounds a lot like gloating to me.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[wildcard451 0]

Quote

What about all the 1,000 + jump people who hook themselves in?

There are lots of them but nobody says they were under the wrong wing.

Perhaps it is not such a good feeling to gloat about a more experienced jumper fucking up

You are mistaking everyone calling you dumb for your canopy choice for gloating. No one will gloat if you go and hook yourself in. There's not a club of people secretly waiting to point and laugh.
If someone with 1500 jumps goes from a spectre 150 for the last 1000 jumps to a katana 107/velo 103 then yeah, people will call them silly and hopefully try to make them see the error of their ways. Most people at that many jumps though know better than to make that jump.
If a jumper with 1000s of jumps hooks it in because of pushing a tight spot, swooping in traffic, then they should have known better. If said 3000 jump wonder drops a toggle on landing- well, that's a reminder the reaper is around every corner.

No one gets any pleasure out of dissecting an accident. No one laughs while standing over a dead friend's body while reminding everyone how stupid he/she was.

[JohnnyMarko 1]

Quote

....

Who was by no stretch of the imagination a low timer busting the WL guidelines.

and why didnt anyone tell him to stop or ground him?

[DocPop 1]

Quote

You are mistaking everyone calling you dumb for your canopy choice for gloating. No one will gloat if you go and hook yourself in. There's not a club of people secretly waiting to point and laugh.
If someone with 1500 jumps goes from a spectre 150 for the last 1000 jumps to a katana 107/velo 103 then yeah, people will call them silly and hopefully try to make them see the error of their ways. Most people at that many jumps though know better than to make that jump.
If a jumper with 1000s of jumps hooks it in because of pushing a tight spot, swooping in traffic, then they should have known better. If said 3000 jump wonder drops a toggle on landing- well, that's a reminder the reaper is around every corner.

No one gets any pleasure out of dissecting an accident. No one laughs while standing over a dead friend's body while reminding everyone how stupid he/she was.

Again, how is "I told you so" not gloating?

How is it constructive?

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[NWFlyer 2]

Quote

Again, how is "I told you so" not gloating?

How is it constructive?

It reminds people that they had the opportunity to learn the easy way.

Since they chose not to maybe they will take the opportunity to learn now that they've gone the "hard way."

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[riggerpaul 1]

Quote

Again, how is "I told you so" not gloating?

How is it constructive?

Gloating requires pleasure at the misfortune of the victim. Check the dictionary if you don't believe me.

One can easily say, "I told you so" without getting any pleasure from it.

It might not be constructive, but that doesn't mean he's getting pleasure from saying "I told you so".

So, though the comment might (or might not, for that matter) be useless and non-constructive, it might not be gloating either.

[DocPop 1]

It seems clear to me that "I told you so" is not constructive, and therefore the only reason for saying it is the pleasure gained by being right and demonstrating how knowledgeable the person was. i.e. gloating.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[wildcard451 0]

Quote

Again, how is "I told you so" not gloating?

How is it constructive?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/gloat

Reading comprehension is your friend. There is no satisfaction. When/if you break/kill yourself on landing-your name will go in that thread, beside tcnelson, as another TBTB that was proven otherwise, to the delight of absolutely no one.
It will be one more piece of evidence for those that try to warn-for those that have seen people better than you or me smear ourselves on the ground, for when they look at the next new guy and say "we told them so...they didn't listen. Please, don't do the same."

If that's gloating/enjoyable then you and I have different views of a good time.

[billvon 3,080]

>It seems clear to me that "I told you so" is not constructive

"Several people told you you were going to get hurt and you didn't listen back then, because you thought you were above average. Perhaps this time you will listen to the advice people are giving you." If that works, and they do indeed listen, then that's constructive - and indeed could save someone's life.

[riggerpaul 1]

Quote

It seems clear to me that "I told you so" is not constructive, and therefore the only reason for saying it is the pleasure gained by being right and demonstrating how knowledgeable the person was. i.e. gloating.

So, you have never said "I told you so" without pleasure?

Or do you claim that you have never said, "I told you so" at all?

Either way, I do not believe you.

The most common emotion that I associate with "I told you so" is the frustration that comes from being ignored by the person who got hurt.

As NWFlyer said, it can be a reminder that the opportunity to learn the easy way has been wasted.

Whenever I see someone get hurt, I feel pretty bad. Unless one is a masochist, that's not pleasant.

It seems to me that the person most likely to think that "I told you so" is gloating is the person who was told, got himself hurt, and still failed to learn the lesson that was there to learn.

[Bodhisattva420 0]

If everyone listened to old timers we would all still be jumping rounds for our first 100 jumps.

[riggerpaul 1]

Quote

If everyone listened to old timers we would all still be jumping rounds for our first 100 jumps.

More silliness.

When I started jumping the second time, in about 1983, the dz I went to had a DZO who used square student parachutes.

My goodness, he was an outlaw.

He was also an old timer.

(He is still older now. His name is Bill Jones.)

So please don't lump all old timers together. They are as diverse as any of the young jumpers we have today.

[JohnnyMarko 1]

Quote

So please don't lump all old timers together. They are as diverse as any of the young jumpers we have today.

so please dont lump all us young jumpers together either...not directed at you paul, just trying to make a point

[jaffo 0]

I started this thread and I can tell you there isn't any pleasure.

While the name "I told you so" could have been better chosen, the idea is to keep records of the people that were warned, didn't heed the warnings, and hurt themselves or others.

Anything to prove to "experts" like DocPOP that these warnings aren't here to prevent them from having fun.

And what the hell would Bodhisattva420 know with 40 jumps in 2 years?? Go tell Lew Sanborn that he's been an obstructionist to the sport.

People like DocPop are asking for trouble. They are selfish with this sport they love.

No matter what happens, DocPop and people like him are going to hurt the sport. There are only 2 possible outcomes:
1. He turns out to be as good as he thinks and lives. Then he continues to spout his ridulous BS about and 6 of his followers die...

2. He goes in and the entire sport continues to look bad. More regulation is forced upon us because we don't have the will power to self-regulate.

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.

Maybe I'm colder than most on these post, but If someone has been continually warned and goes in, I won't lose a seconds sleep about it. Natural Selection I guess.

Ryder

Take chances, just do it with all the information to make good decisions!!

Muff Brother# 2706 Dudeist Skydiver# 121.5

[jaffo 0]

Quote

Quote

So please don't lump all old timers together. They are as diverse as any of the young jumpers we have today.

so please dont lump all us young jumpers together either...not directed at you paul, just trying to make a point

Johnny,
I definately don't lump young or old jumpers together. Only smart and not smart jumpers.

To me a smart jumper is one that studies, takes all advice under consideration and doesn't progress too quickly for his skills.

The non-smart is...well I guess we've already covered it.
Ryder

Take chances, just do it with all the information to make good decisions!!

Muff Brother# 2706 Dudeist Skydiver# 121.5

[Scrumpot 1]

Don't disparage them, TEACH THEM!

Once done viewing part 1 ...don't forget the follow-up to it, found in PART-2

Hilarious stuff.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[billvon 3,080]

>If everyone listened to old timers we would all still be jumping rounds
>for our first 100 jumps.

Yep. Reminds me of someone else:

"I appreciate your concern but, in my experience, those with above-average ability progress on a steeper learning curve than the average."

"I will continue to swoop on my own terms and on a learning progression that i can be comfortable with."

"I'm already tiring of the rabble from the oldies."

[NovaTTT 2]

Quote

So please don't lump all old timers together. They are as diverse as any of the young jumpers we have today.

The issue being, young jumpers, just like young people, can't believe that we've been through it, seen it, learned from it, and want to give them the knowlege without having them go through the grief.

So they buck against the "establishment/old-timers/fuddy-duddy's" and keep doing the same stupid shit we're trying to prevent them from doing.

The Sticky should be titled: "I Told Him So", or "The 100 Jump Wonder Hall of Shame"

FWIW

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[Roxxx 0]

like a baby, somtimes it's too much information taken in too fast... uhm, more like a computer... only so much can be downloaded at a time. Info needs to be processed prior to adding more.

slow is smooth, smooth is fast... progression

[happythoughts 0]

Quote

slow is smooth, smooth is fast... progression

you would not believe the number of people who disagree
with me when i say that. did they not walk reasonably well before running ?

many times, i think their self-evaluation is flawed.

[Amazon 7]

Quote

It seems clear to me that "I told you so" is not constructive, and therefore the only reason for saying it is the pleasure gained by being right and demonstrating how knowledgeable the person was. i.e. gloating.

This thread seems to be getting your full attention. I do not know you nor do I know how skilled you are at 200 jumps if that is accurate... but DUUUUUUDE
Your stats
Jumps: 200
Years: 3
Disciplines: Swooping
Freeflying


Container: Infinity
Main: Katana 135 ft² (1.52 lbs/ft²)
Reserve: Optimum Reserve 143 ft² (1.43 lbs/ft²)
AAD: Vigil

As opposed to

Jumps: 582
Years: 4
Disciplines: Freeflying
Swooping
Photographer: Yes

Gear
Container: Voodoo
Main: Crossfire 2 139 ft² (1.55 lbs/ft²)
Reserve: Raven Dash-M
AAD: Cypres

[JohnnyMarko 1]

Quote

Quote

So please don't lump all old timers together. They are as diverse as any of the young jumpers we have today.

The issue being, young jumpers, just like young people, can't believe that we've been through it, seen it, learned from it, and want to give them the knowlege without having them go through the grief.

So they buck against the "establishment/old-timers/fuddy-duddy's" and keep doing the same stupid shit we're trying to prevent them from doing.

The Sticky should be titled: "I Told Him So", or "The 100 Jump Wonder Hall of Shame"

FWIW

once again, all young jumpers cannot be lumped into this category as not all young jumpers are incompetent and reject advice

[riggerpaul 1]

Quote

once again, all young jumpers cannot be lumped into this category as not all young jumpers are incompetent and reject advice

Give it a break, will ya?

Nobody is lumping all young jumpers into any category.

Still, you cannot ignore the fact that most of the landing incidents do not involve "old timers".

Some do, but most don't.

Swoop if you must.

But if you choose to swoop... Be current. Be current on your canopy. Be as conservative as you can. Follow a sensible progression. Be sure that your swooping does not put others in jeopardy.

I'll be sad if you get hurt. But I won't say "I told you so" if you have followed a reasonable course. Because sometimes, shit happens.