obelixtim 150
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billvon 3,088
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>A stranger giving objective personal experience advice on an
>internet forum is an example of no harm done.
Someone who presents himself as an authority on DZ.com and who gives advice to a jumper that contributes to that jumper injuring or killing themselves is the very definition of "harm done."
There have been cases here of jumpers who took bad Internet advice and who got injured as a result. Is it their fault? Yes; they were the ones who took the advice.
But we as experienced jumpers have a duty to try to not do that. We have a responsibility on a personal level, because even if we don't know them and don't care if they get injured, we are all part of the same community. We also have a responsibility on a higher level, because we get away with a lot by our claim that we are self-policing. That gets us more freedom, but with freedom comes responsibility.
That's why we so rarely see people at DZ's telling other jumpers "sure, kid, do that wingsuit jump at 70 jumps; just lie to em and you'll be good to go." First, because most skydivers _do_ feel that they are part of that community, and when jumpers pull shit like that and die as a result (which has happened) it impacts their friends pretty hard. Secondly, because the more experienced jumpers feel that higher responsibility, and will call out a jumper who gives advice like that. They don't want to see their part of the sport curtailed or eliminated because some idiot heeded some other idiot and went in.
That's a basic difference between the Net and a DZ. It's easy to give bad advice over the net anonymously. It's a lot harder to try to do it in front of someone who knows what's going on. It takes a lot more guts, because they'll get called out more often. But a good rule of thumb is that if you won't give a certain bit of advice in front of an expert in that field, you may not want to give it anonymously, either.
>internet forum is an example of no harm done.
Someone who presents himself as an authority on DZ.com and who gives advice to a jumper that contributes to that jumper injuring or killing themselves is the very definition of "harm done."
There have been cases here of jumpers who took bad Internet advice and who got injured as a result. Is it their fault? Yes; they were the ones who took the advice.
But we as experienced jumpers have a duty to try to not do that. We have a responsibility on a personal level, because even if we don't know them and don't care if they get injured, we are all part of the same community. We also have a responsibility on a higher level, because we get away with a lot by our claim that we are self-policing. That gets us more freedom, but with freedom comes responsibility.
That's why we so rarely see people at DZ's telling other jumpers "sure, kid, do that wingsuit jump at 70 jumps; just lie to em and you'll be good to go." First, because most skydivers _do_ feel that they are part of that community, and when jumpers pull shit like that and die as a result (which has happened) it impacts their friends pretty hard. Secondly, because the more experienced jumpers feel that higher responsibility, and will call out a jumper who gives advice like that. They don't want to see their part of the sport curtailed or eliminated because some idiot heeded some other idiot and went in.
That's a basic difference between the Net and a DZ. It's easy to give bad advice over the net anonymously. It's a lot harder to try to do it in front of someone who knows what's going on. It takes a lot more guts, because they'll get called out more often. But a good rule of thumb is that if you won't give a certain bit of advice in front of an expert in that field, you may not want to give it anonymously, either.
93zx11 0
"If someone went to a 'jumping off a cliff' website for advise and someone else told them that they had done it and it was okay, despite what most others 'with licenses and qualifications' say...
...I bet ya can find a few that WOULD do it. "
Speaking of that, you should check out a certain "jumping off a cliff" website. There was a recent topic about someone wanting to jump a 50 or so foot high cliff into water with a wingsuit, just to try it out.
The advice? "shoot video".
Horrible, right? I mean, what cynical bastards.
Want to know the ironic thing? When I went to my home DZ with the wingsuit the first time, every skydiver there said "we need video".
Now, don't get all high and mighty saying I put the other dropzone at risk, because back then it wasn't a requirement. Sure, I fudged my jump numbers, but don't tell me I am the first skydiver to do that. I wasn't going against any BSR, and hell, I even pulled at the recommended 5,000 feet for first timers. 
No. harm. done.
"If someone went to a 'jumping off a cliff' website for advise and someone else told them that they had done it and it was okay, despite what most others 'with licenses and qualifications' say...
...I bet ya can find a few that WOULD do it. "
Speaking of that, you should check out a certain "jumping off a cliff" website. There was a recent topic about someone wanting to jump a 50 or so foot high cliff into water with a wingsuit, just to try it out.
The advice? "shoot video".
Horrible, right? I mean, what cynical bastards.
Want to know the ironic thing? When I went to my home DZ with the wingsuit the first time, every skydiver there said "we need video".
Now, don't get all high and mighty saying I put the other dropzone at risk, because back then it wasn't a requirement. Sure, I fudged my jump numbers, but don't tell me I am the first skydiver to do that. I wasn't going against any BSR, and hell, I even pulled at the recommended 5,000 feet for first timers.
So what you're sayin' is, your are a liar AND a cheater...
~at least you're honest about that!
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
93zx11 0
That's a basic difference between the Net and a DZ. It's easy to give bad advice over the net anonymously. It's a lot harder to try to do it in front of someone who knows what's going on. It takes a lot more guts, because they'll get called out more often. But a good rule of thumb is that if you won't give a certain bit of advice in front of an expert in that field, you may not want to give it anonymously, either.
Here's the problem with that. I have no issue backing my advice to anyone experienced in the sport, ergo why I came out and said I was the one who sent the pm. I would gladly shout from the rooftops that I think BSRs are absurd.
My reasoning (like I stated in the PM), was that the advice was frowned upon by most people on this site. Which is true. That doesn't make the advice right or wrong, it's still an opinion. There is nothing we can accomplish in this thread to change opinions. At the end of the day I will stlil be a 100 jump wonder who defied the odds and still thinks the USPA is crazy, and you will all be skygods.
Lets agree to disagree and call it a day.
grimmie 186
Nice that wingsuit jumping worked out for you after you lied about your experience.
You're a self centered skydiver. Not the first and not the last to lie about their jumps.
DZO's, love them or loathe them, put their necks out all of the time to keep dumb asses like you in the air. The problem is, all of the self centered pricks don't give a fuck. Hey, if I fuck up that guys DZ deal with the airport, I can go to any number of other DZ's and jump, after I heal up.
Maybe the DZ you lied at had a deal that only jumpers with pro coaching could jump WS there. So you go in and your friends rat you out. WTF, he never did a WS jump before. Hey Mr. DZO, it's the airport commission, we're yanking your permit to use our facility since you can't control things.
So yeah, I got "high and mighty" and am telling you, you put the DZ at risk.
You're a self centered skydiver. Not the first and not the last to lie about their jumps.
DZO's, love them or loathe them, put their necks out all of the time to keep dumb asses like you in the air. The problem is, all of the self centered pricks don't give a fuck. Hey, if I fuck up that guys DZ deal with the airport, I can go to any number of other DZ's and jump, after I heal up.
Maybe the DZ you lied at had a deal that only jumpers with pro coaching could jump WS there. So you go in and your friends rat you out. WTF, he never did a WS jump before. Hey Mr. DZO, it's the airport commission, we're yanking your permit to use our facility since you can't control things.
So yeah, I got "high and mighty" and am telling you, you put the DZ at risk.
93zx11 0
So what you're sayin' is, your are a liar AND a cheater...
~at least you're honest about that!
In terms of skydiving? Just a liar. And only once.
Once I started building up wingsuit jumps, I didn't have to lie anymore.
"Oh how many wingsuit jumps do you have?"
"About 30"
That was good enough. No need to say those 30 jumps were all done under 100 total.
obelixtim 150
Not being a requirement, and fudging your jump numbers is all well and good, but skydiving means responsibility to yourself, and to your mates on the DZ.
Breaking the rules means jack shit when your mates are at your funeral. Being cool and dead is definitely not cool.
Common sense is what keeps us alive..
Best you get some.
And don't come to my DZ until you do.
Breaking the rules means jack shit when your mates are at your funeral. Being cool and dead is definitely not cool.
Common sense is what keeps us alive..
Best you get some.
And don't come to my DZ until you do.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....
93zx11 0
So yeah, I got "high and mighty" and am telling you, you put the DZ at risk.
Might I suggest adding a BSR for better recording and enforcement of jump numbers?
grimmie 186
That's all you got?
Might I suggest in skydiving you can either be the entertainment or watch the entertainment.
93zx11 0
Common sense is what keeps us alive..
Best you get some.
And don't come to my DZ until you do.
Common sense states that you don't jump out of airplanes.
Like I said, this conversation is pointless. Opinions are opinions, and this whole debate is countless years old.
And no worries. I don't skydive anymore.
obelixtim 150
Might I suggest adding a BSR for better recording and enforcement of jump numbers?
Ah, so loading another set of rules to make the DZO more responsible for you absolves you from using your brain.
It would be easier for you to quit.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....
grimmie 186
Common sense is what keeps us alive..
Best you get some.
And don't come to my DZ until you do.
Common sense states that you don't jump out of airplanes.
Like I said, this conversation is pointless. Opinions are opinions, and this whole debate is countless years old.
And no worries. I don't skydive anymore.
The punch line of the month.
obelixtim 150
And no worries. I don't skydive anymore
Smartest thing you've done.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....
93zx11 0
I guess skydivers are immune to satire.
This guy has proven (at least to the USPA standards) that he is able to think on his own while skydiving. A stranger giving objective personal experience advice on an internet forum is an example of no harm done.
You realize that there's no way to win this, right?
For starters, on the one hand you bash the USPA and it policies, and then in the quote above, you fall back on the authority of the USPA in terms of vetting the jumper as being 'able to think on his own'.
Which one is it? Does the USPA suck balls, or it is qualified to certify jumpers as being competent?
In another case of you not being able to win, neither answer makes your point. Even if you want to fall back on the guys USPA license as proof he can 'think and skydive', his license only qualifies him as being able to engage in a certain level of 'thinking and skydiving'. The USPA doesn't beleive (given that this is an A license jumper) that this individual is capable of making a night jump, a camera jump, or (you guessed it) a wingsuit jump.
He 'may' be able to handle those things, but he also may the poster child for the 'should have quit skydiving after one jump' crowd. Add to that a supposedly 'experienced' jumper is spoon feeding his pretty bad advice with no real basis for giving that advice, and you have the start of a potentially bad situation.
skyrider 0
Let me guess. You're the jackass that sent him the PM?
I hope he doesn't get hurt. I hope you're not serious, and I hope he realizes that.
Its one thing to talk about something hypotheticaly, but quite another to outright tell someone to do it!
No actually, I am.
I hope he doesn't get hurt as well, which is why I said take my advice with a grain of salt.
Let the flame war begin. I will stand behind my advice.
Advice??? NO....Even You said it was an "Opinion" and a very dangerous one!
I hope you take the reactions to this thread to heart, and never try to kill another young jumper, Just because you got away with it, does not make it a good idea to tell someone else to try it!
You yoruself knew it was "bad advice" or you would not have hidden it in a private message..you would have said it out in the open!
93zx11 0
Advice??? NO....Even You said it was an "Opinion" and a very dangerous one!
I hope you take the reactions to this thread to heart, and never try to kill another young jumper, Just because you got away with it, does not make it a good idea to tell someone else to try it!
You yoruself knew it was "bad advice" or you would not have hidden it in a private message..you would have said it out in the open!
You're right, I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you pesky kids!
More like, as I said in previous posts and the original message, I didn't want to have to deal with exactly this. I have no problem giving my advice in a public setting.
You're right again, I will take it to heart. You have all changed me. I realize the error in my ways, and we should just move on.
I wouldn't have changed a thing.....except I would double my efforts to do jumps as I saw fit. You might say I was reckless...I don't think so, and that is why I survived.
CSPA and USPA have made rules to cover their rules, and have almost regulated themselves out of the sky.
I could tell you about reckless.....such as when a CSPA safety officer dropped a student almost 1 kilometer past the proper exit point.....because she was with ME.
Many other examples....so I did it MY WAY, and dont regret a bit of it.
BTW...who would you have wanted me to seek advice from in jumping a wingsuit in 1965? I think Burt Lancaster was the only one still alive....regardless of what you saw on the screen.
Bill
CSPA and USPA have made rules to cover their rules, and have almost regulated themselves out of the sky.
I could tell you about reckless.....such as when a CSPA safety officer dropped a student almost 1 kilometer past the proper exit point.....because she was with ME.
Many other examples....so I did it MY WAY, and dont regret a bit of it.
BTW...who would you have wanted me to seek advice from in jumping a wingsuit in 1965? I think Burt Lancaster was the only one still alive....regardless of what you saw on the screen.
Bill
obelixtim 150
I wouldn't have changed a thing.....except I would double my efforts to do jumps as I saw fit. You might say I was reckless...I don't think so, and that is why I survived.
CSPA and USPA have made rules to cover their rules, and have almost regulated themselves out of the sky.
I could tell you about reckless.....such as when a CSPA safety officer dropped a student almost 1 kilometer past the proper exit point.....because she was with ME.
Many other examples....so I did it MY WAY, and dont regret a bit of it.
BTW...who would you have wanted me to seek advice from in jumping a wingsuit in 1965? I think Burt Lancaster was the only one still alive....regardless of what you saw on the screen.
Bill
I thought you were kidding with your previous post, but no longer. I won't say what I think of you here, out of respect for your age and medical condition.
I thought the "we are rough tough ex military paratroopers who spit in the face of officialdom and death" types of individuals who dominated the sport in the 60's and early 70's were long gone.
Skydiving became much more fun after those types departed, when their limitations as jumpers was exposed when RW took off.
The death defying daredevil image did a lot of PR damage to our sport, and took a hell of a lot of time and effort on the part of many individuals to overcome, if it ever did.
So you would advocate a completely unregulated free for all, "do what you like" selfish attitude to prevail because a couple of individuals apparently did you wrong.
Did you maybe consider that the JM who put "your" girl out too deep simply got the spot wrong. I've done it, and I've spotted thousands of loads.
I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out the result of such a policy, with impact holes all over the planet. Skydiving would have been shut down by the authorities a long time ago.
As it is, winning and retaining acceptance has been a long, difficult and continuing battle.
Most rules and regs are a result of bitter experience, often repeated. They are there to keep everyone safe and alive. And for safety officers and DZO's around the world who make skydiving happen, it minimises the thoroughly unpleasant job of dealing with dead bodies.
Not something anyone should be called on to do.
Encouraging the idiots, as you are doing is irresponsible and certainly not clever. Not impressed with your arrogant attitude, at all.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....
93zx11 0
You fail to recognize that without death defying daredevils, skydiving would never had existed.
Honestly though, this whole discussion is pointless.
I am sure all the rule abiding skydivers lose sleep at night due to people like me and Bill, and we despise you the same.
When it comes to opinions and mentalities, there is no right or wrong, so please stop pretending there is.
Honestly though, this whole discussion is pointless.
I am sure all the rule abiding skydivers lose sleep at night due to people like me and Bill, and we despise you the same.
When it comes to opinions and mentalities, there is no right or wrong, so please stop pretending there is.
Be very careful about giving advice, and if you are going to do so, err on the side of caution. Otherwise, keep your mouth shut.
Unintended consequences hurt other people.
BADLY, especially when we are talking skydiving.
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