velo label

[swoopfly 7]

It says on the velocity (111) warning label....Complete atleast 50 ram air jumps before jumping this canopy (on a canopy that is one size bigger). And here everyone says it takes 500 jumps, so whats up with that?

[pinkfairy 0]

This is a general label that is used for ram air parachutes.

They all include things about "training and or experience is required to reduce the risk" and "This is a high performance parachute. Even normal use can cause serious injury or death.

I see you have 500 jumps. You should get one immediately. I should too!

No really, far too many get that canopy because they have enough jumps to jump it, not because they can max it out.

Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet.

I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you?

[swoopfly 7]

i was just amazed that the people who manufactured this high performance wing, thought about 50 jumps would be good enough to put someone under it, while i have always heard of alot more.

[wildcard451 0]

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i was just amazed that the people who manufactured this high performance wing, thought about 50 jumps would be good enough to put someone under it, while i have always heard of alot more.

Is it faded? I think mine says 500...could be wrong.

[likestojump 3]

label attached is from a 2month old canopy (Velo 84).

I am quite certain that the label is a generic one

[wildcard451 0]

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label attached is from a 2month old canopy (Velo 84).

I am quite certain that the label is a generic one

Ah. Yeah, that's it. When you read both B and C together, you notice the the OP either a) has no reading comprehension skills or b) is stirring up shit.

[trig78 0]

Trolling?

facebook.com/trig78

[JohnMitchell 16]

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....Complete atleast 50 ram air jumps before jumping this canopy (on a canopy that is one size bigger). And here everyone says it takes 500 jumps, so whats up with that?

Nope, it says "Complete at least 50 ram air jumps on a canopy that is only 15% bigger."

They aren't saying those are all the jumps you need, but that you need to have at least 50 jumps on a canopy no bigger than 128, a gradual downsizing. It also says you need to be an advanced or expert skydiver, not suitable for intermediates or lower.

[swoopfly 7]

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....Complete atleast 50 ram air jumps before jumping this canopy (on a canopy that is one size bigger). And here everyone says it takes 500 jumps, so whats up with that?

Nope, it says "Complete at least 50 ram air jumps on a canopy that is only 15% bigger."

They aren't saying those are all the jumps you need, but that you need to have at least 50 jumps on a canopy no bigger than 128, a gradual downsizing. It also says you need to be an advanced or expert skydiver, not suitable for intermediates or lower.

So your saying 50 jumps on a canopy is reasonable to have learned everything about it, pushed it to the max, got everything you could out of it and are now ready for a velo 15% smaller??? Assuming you put 50 jumps on every other canopy in between!

this is your idea of gradual downsizing?

[davelepka 4]

Ok genius, did you read the rest of the label? If you're going to follow it to the letter, let's follow the whole thing.

The WL portion indicates the Velo is N/A for anyone but an 'Advanced' jumper. How many jumps do you think it takes to be considered 'Advanced'? Not a student, or novice, or intermediate, but 'Advanced'?

It's got to be a couple hundred jumps, even by the most optimistic of jumpers.

Let's move on. The biggest Velo they make is a 120, so a canopy 15% up is about a 135. If you can make 50 jumps ona 135, with 10 soft stand up landings in the target area, you're cleared to jump a Velo 120 at the 'Advanced' WL.

On the 84 label Paul posted, the Advanced Wl is 1.3, so on the 120 you would have to be 156lbs max, fully geared up.

So what PD is really saying is that if you're an 'Advacned' jumper, with 50 jumps on a canopy 15% bigger (with 10 stand ups on target), you're cleared to jump a Velo at a 1.3 WL, provided that you weight less than 130lbs (becasue the biggest Velo is a 120.

Interestingly enough, the lebel posted for the 84 lists 109 as the max exit weight for an advanced jumper, which leaves you a body weight of about 90 lbs (without lead). If you need lead, like most 90lb people do, either the Velo is out, or you need to weigh more like 80 lbs.

Who knows, maybe you're right. Midgets and hot chicks everywhere should protest PD for endangering their lives with a mis-worded label.

[Hellis 0]

If you start as a student jumping a 260 sqf and only downsize as the warninglabel says you should have about 400 jumps when you get to jump a 111 canopy.

260->240 50 jumps
240->210 100 jumps
210->190 150 jumps
190->170 200 jumps
170->150 250 jumps
150->135 300 jumps
135->120 350 jumps
120->111 400 jumps

So if you would downsize as much as possible you could end up with a 111 at 400 jumps.
That is if you make 10 stand up landings within the target area on each canopy.
But im not so sure its a good way of downsizing.

[wildcard451 0]

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If you start as a student jumping a 260 sqf and only downsize as the warninglabel says you should have about 400 jumps when you get to jump a 111 canopy.

260->240 50 jumps
240->210 100 jumps
210->190 150 jumps
190->170 200 jumps
170->150 250 jumps
150->135 300 jumps
135->120 350 jumps
120->111 400 jumps

So if you would downsize as much as possible you could end up with a 111 at 400 jumps.
That is if you make 10 stand up landings within the target area on each canopy.
But im not so sure its a good way of downsizing.

At 400 jumps there are very few people I would truly call "advanced" canopy pilots, especially after spending that little time under each wing. To quote a great little movie, most "fly a pattern like a drunken snake".

However, if at 400 jumps you wanna do that, with that progression, honestly with the skills met you described, then you could probably handle a velo 111 @ 1.3. I'm just not sure why you'd want to...

[Ron 10]

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So your saying 50 jumps on a canopy is reasonable to have learned everything about it, pushed it to the max, got everything you could out of it and are now ready for a velo 15% smaller??? Assuming you put 50 jumps on every other canopy in between!

Not what *he* said at all. The label said that if you made 50 jumps with 10 soft standing landings in the target area on a 15% larger canopy then you could jump this smaller one.

Which is more than most people who downsize do.

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this is your idea of gradual downsizing?

50 jumps on a larger canopy showing control is more than most people do.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[mchamp 1]

What's interesting is that the canopy that I currently jump (sabre2 120) loaded at just under 1.2 ...yes I am a lightweight don't hate... is considered to be within the "expert" category. I am definitely no expert canopy pilot but with 240 jumps within the last year, couple canopy courses, and zero ass landings since off student status, I feel comfortable under this wing.

What I don't understand is that if I were to jump a katana 107 or a velo 111 I'd be within the "advanced" category.....weird huh? Anyone have any explanations or any insight? For the record I'm not downsizing to a katana or velo anytime soon

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[DocPop 1]

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What I don't understand is that if I were to jump a katana 107 or a velo 111 I'd be within the "advanced" category.....weird huh? Anyone have any explanations or any insight? For the record I'm not downsizing to a katana or velo anytime soon

Yes. You are misinterpreting the way the table is supposed to be read. You do not become advanced by being a certain weight, or by having a certain number of jumps (although this constantly gets trolled out on dz.com).

PD's definition of Advanced is "The Advanced category is intended for somebody who has thoroughly practiced and refined his or her basic piloting skills. This person should also have practiced more advanced skills under less aggressive canopies and learned how to get the best performance from his or her previous canopy. Experience and practice will have taught him or her how to deal effectively with unexpected situations. A skydiver should also be reasonably current before jumping a canopy in this category, and should continue to jump frequently if he or she intends to use this type of canopy."

If you meet the above requirements AND are below the weight in the Advanced box on the label then PD are OK with you jumping that canopy.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[davelepka 4]

I can't help but ignore the irony of your knowledge of PDs definitions and reccomendations, while you are clearly and grossly operating outisde of those limits.

Not related to the topic at hand, but like I said, I just pass it up.

[DocPop 1]

Dave - we've been through this before. I am aware of my situation and I accept the risk (as you know).

I was trying to add something to the thread.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[billvon 3,112]

>So your saying 50 jumps on a canopy is reasonable to have learned everything
>about it, pushed it to the max, got everything you could out of it and are now ready
>for a velo 15% smaller?

No. It is an ABSOLUTE MINIMUM that PD requires. It is the opposite of "max."

[Ron 10]

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If you meet the above requirements AND are below the weight in the Advanced box on the label then PD are OK with you jumping that canopy.

I wonder if they would approve of your situation?

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 3,112]

>If you meet the above requirements AND are below the weight in the Advanced
>box on the label then PD are OK with you jumping that canopy.

No, it doesn't mean that - any more than someone with a C license is OK doing a demo.

[DocPop 1]

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If you meet the above requirements AND are below the weight in the Advanced box on the label then PD are OK with you jumping that canopy.

I wonder if they would approve of your situation?

Doubt it.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[DocPop 1]

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>If you meet the above requirements AND are below the weight in the Advanced
>box on the label then PD are OK with you jumping that canopy.

No, it doesn't mean that - any more than someone with a C license is OK doing a demo.

Would you mind posting your interpretation, please?

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[pchapman 279]

On the subject of Advanced vs Expert ranges, that mchamp brought up:

Yes, DocPop is right if mchamp claims that the canopy he flies determines his skill level. Although it did sound that way from mchamp's post, I think he meant what he wrote only as a hypothetical situation.

So let's look at mchamp's example again.

Say there is a jumper who we can call "Advanced" in canopy skills, who when geared up is 144 lbs. At that skill level, PD's table suggests that it is Ok to fly a Sabre2 150, but not a 135 (WL <1.1). Yet the same jumper would be allowed to jump a Velo 111 (WL 1.3).

Yes that sounds "backwards", and pretty stupid.

I think the explanation of the charts is they try to look at how comfortably the canopy flies & lands at that wing loading, for jumpers who already have the general skills for that style of canopy.

So a Velo is easy to fly at only 1.3, given that its suggested max is 2.2. But a Sabre2 is relatively more heavily loaded, as its max is 1.6 on the charts.

I figure that's the intent of the table, yet one can debate how true it is.

For a relative newbie, I'd rather give them a Sabre2 at 1.3 than a Velo at 1.3. For an advanced jumper, who knows, but I'd still think it would be easier under the Sabre2 at 1.3.

At high wing loadings, the overloading idea starts to be more credible. If someone tossed me a rig to use on a quick back to back load, I'd rather have a Velo at 2.0 loading than a Sabre 1 at 2.0. But even then that's based on me being familiar with the general flight characteristics of typical small cross braced canopies.

So mchamp's point is a good one. PD doesn't have all the answers, and their wing loading charts may not really be that consistent between canopy models. That can be a problem, as people typically switch canopy models as they downsize.

[billvon 3,112]

>Would you mind posting your interpretation, please?

What you listed is an ABSOLUTE MINIMUM that PD requires.

Again, to compare it to the C license:

A C license allows you to make demonstration jumps per what USPA says. It would be nuts to therefore say that anyone who has gotten their C license is ready to do a demo. It is just the bare minimum of experience you need before you should even consider doing a demo.

Now, take that experience, add some specific accuracy training, some education about choosing outs, choosing gear, reading wind direction, spotting, evaluating a landing area etc and a jumper may indeed be ready.

The above is a classic case of people reading a minimum and thinking it's a guideline. We see it all the time here - "I have 150 jumps, and 200 jumps is when you're fine wingsuiting, and I'm a good skydiver so I can do it a little early." Experience has shown that sort of thinking doesn't work well.

[DocPop 1]

OK. So I was right, but omitted the absolute minimum (or absolute maximum if we are talking about the weight) caveat.

Fair point.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA