Muffie 0
Top Ten Phrases from the Incidents Forum that Annoy Me
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QuoteQuote"Proof that Lawyers read this shit!"
That was said in jest, but really plaintiff lawyers do actually read this "shit." I've been contacted by other attorneys and PIs based on things I've posted there. I know others who have had the same experience. The incident forum serves an important purpose, just be aware that its public and all sorts of different people read it.
Same here, I was not only contacted and requested to act as an 'expert witness'...but when I refused a subpoenaed was attempted.
I was out of the country an unavailable.
Make no mistake the forum is mined for ideas and theories.
Not saying speculation regarding possible contributing factors is a bad thing, but one should take care their replies don't smell of accusations that may be unfounded, especially when not being privy to all the facts.
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
Muffie 0
After a PM discussion, I just want to clarify one of the items on my list. 9. “I have the right to do whatever I want to do because I paid for the jump ticket.”
I wasn't saying that experienced skydivers can't do what they know how to do and know how to do well. This was a context-specific statement about what people say in the incidents forum.
There were a couple of threads where a landing pattern had been established (I believe one of the patterns was follow the first one down) and someone had died or been seriously injured because someone failed to follow the pattern. There was lots of good discussion about whether following the first person to land down is a good policy and about how you can land off if you don't want to follow that person's pattern. But there were also comments about how someone was not going to land off and was going to land in their chosen direction because they were looking out for #1. Since that's been the cause of some fatalities and injuries in the past two years it was frustrating to see that statement pop up each time.
Also, the exiting the aircraft one was related to a specific incident where after lots of good discussion about the need to exit differently from a plane with a low tail someone had chimed in with the equivalent of "I'll exit any way I please because I paid for that right." The incident itself was related to someone with low jump numbers who probably didn't know better, but that comment after lots of discussion of the dangers of jumping up when exiting a low tailed aircraft was annoying to me.
It's just personally frustrating for me to see someone lose their life or be seriously injured and see someone else comment on how they're not going to take that lesson to heart. I now realize that there is a lot of history on some of these issues and people probably reacted through the lens of their own experiences in ways that I hadn't anticipated and that those people thought I was making a much broader statement about their actions than I was.
I still stand by my belief that we each have an obligation to each other, the drop zone we jump at, and the sport.
I wasn't saying that experienced skydivers can't do what they know how to do and know how to do well. This was a context-specific statement about what people say in the incidents forum.
There were a couple of threads where a landing pattern had been established (I believe one of the patterns was follow the first one down) and someone had died or been seriously injured because someone failed to follow the pattern. There was lots of good discussion about whether following the first person to land down is a good policy and about how you can land off if you don't want to follow that person's pattern. But there were also comments about how someone was not going to land off and was going to land in their chosen direction because they were looking out for #1. Since that's been the cause of some fatalities and injuries in the past two years it was frustrating to see that statement pop up each time.
Also, the exiting the aircraft one was related to a specific incident where after lots of good discussion about the need to exit differently from a plane with a low tail someone had chimed in with the equivalent of "I'll exit any way I please because I paid for that right." The incident itself was related to someone with low jump numbers who probably didn't know better, but that comment after lots of discussion of the dangers of jumping up when exiting a low tailed aircraft was annoying to me.
It's just personally frustrating for me to see someone lose their life or be seriously injured and see someone else comment on how they're not going to take that lesson to heart. I now realize that there is a lot of history on some of these issues and people probably reacted through the lens of their own experiences in ways that I hadn't anticipated and that those people thought I was making a much broader statement about their actions than I was.
I still stand by my belief that we each have an obligation to each other, the drop zone we jump at, and the sport.
Andy9o8 2
QuoteI was not only contacted and requested to act as an 'expert witness'...but when I refused a subpoenaed was attempted.
I presume, or at least hope, that you were subpoenaed about an incident that you either witnessed or knew/heard something about. Usually, a person can only be compelled by subpoena to testify as a fact witness. Generally, nobody can be compelled, even under subpoena, to give an expert opinion if they choose not to opine. Even if you've witnessed something and you happen to be an expert, you can only be compelled to testify to facts you know. As a general rule, a judge should refuse any attempt to force you to give an expert opinion on anything you don't want to, even if it's about something you witnessed.
riggerrob 643
"Proof that Lawyers eat this shit!"
.........................................................................
Corrected your spelling.
Andy9o8 2
hey, boy.
As a general rule, a judge should refuse any attempt to force you to give an expert opinion on anything you don't want to, even if it's about something you witnessed.
I wasn't about to let it get that far, anything I did was a no-win for me so I opted out.
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
feuergnom 29
great summary but I'm missing one point:
many posters completely miss the fact, that there is obligation whatsoever to post anything in the incidents forum and thus fall into tantrums when nobody wants to share info...
my 0,2s: that alone keeps many people from posting anything there. me included.
many posters completely miss the fact, that there is obligation whatsoever to post anything in the incidents forum and thus fall into tantrums when nobody wants to share info...
my 0,2s: that alone keeps many people from posting anything there. me included.
The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle
dudeist skydiver # 666
dudeist skydiver # 666
kkeenan 14
Quote...I now realize that there is a lot of history on some of these issues and people probably reacted through the lens of their own experiences in ways that I hadn't anticipated ...
Ha. Go figure.
...And once more a noobie realizes, after shooting their mouth off in righteous indignation about the idiots on DZ.com, that there may be more to skydiving than they realize and maybe they could learn something by shutting up and listening.
What a concept.
Kevin Keenan
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This "Muffie" shit is sick.
"Just sayin'"
"Nothing new to learn"
"Just my 0.02$"
Just true,
so is my observation.
"Just sayin'"
"Nothing new to learn"
"Just my 0.02$"
Just true,
so is my observation.
What goes around, comes later.
"He died doing what he liked"
I hate that one. P]
I hate that one. P]
Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."
skyrider 0
Quote"He died doing what he liked"
I hate that one. P]
Very true, If you love something, you don;t want to die doing it, (unless it is sex) leaving a scar on your hobbie/lifestyle, Sucks...
skyrider 0
Not to mention, who here can say they want to die going in, grabbing for handles trying to open a rag.....
I've seen it happen, they were NOT doing what they loved!
Quote"He died doing what he liked"
I hate that one. P]
Me too...I like sleeping!
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
QuoteQuote11. He died because he didn't pull. End of story.
You may not like it but it is often the truth.
Sparky
Although it usually is an important (or the prime) factor, it very rarely is the only one. Just as the Swiss cheese model is used for other types of aviation it should be for skydiving. Yes pulling would have prevented the fatality, but so would have more attentive instructor/ jump-mates, an aad, a better fitting rig, et cetera, et cetera.
Bolas 5
"That's not right."
"You're wrong."
Or something similar with no additional info given.
It's true that no one has to post, but if one is going to, they should at least be prepared to have a counterpoint. 
QuoteQuoteQuote11. He died because he didn't pull. End of story.
You may not like it but it is often the truth.
Sparky
Although it usually is an important (or the prime) factor, it very rarely is the only one. Just as the Swiss cheese model is used for other types of aviation it should be for skydiving. Yes pulling would have prevented the fatality, but so would have more attentive instructor/ jump-mates, an aad, a better fitting rig, et cetera, et cetera.
Quit trying to lay it off on something/someone else. You can have the best instructors giving you the best instructions; you can have an audible in each ear, 2 altimeters, good friends looking out for your young ass, a custom tailored rig make of mink. But if you don’t pull you are just as dead as the guy who is self taught wearing a B-4 cheepo and chest mount. That is the one any only thing a student or experienced jumpers needs to remember…….pull before impact. . But then of course even if you pull you can still die and that’s a reality people seem unwilling to accept.
Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals
QuoteNot to mention, who here can say they want to die going in, grabbing for handles trying to open a rag.....
I've seen it happen, they were NOT doing what they loved!
I posted something similar quite a while back but it was met with opposition. I doubt anyone that went in was doing something they love just before impact.
JohnMitchell 16
I want to live doing what I love.QuoteQuote"He died doing what he liked"
I hate that one. P]
Me too...I like sleeping!
I want to die doing something I hate, like my tax return or cleaning the gutters. Then I can go with a smile on my face.
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QuoteI want to live doing what I love.
I want to die doing something I hate, like my tax return or cleaning the gutters. Then I can go with a smile on my face.
that is one Refreshing point of view
(pff.. when I think of it - I wanna die every day)What goes around, comes later.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote11. He died because he didn't pull. End of story.
You may not like it but it is often the truth.
Sparky
Although it usually is an important (or the prime) factor, it very rarely is the only one. Just as the Swiss cheese model is used for other types of aviation it should be for skydiving. Yes pulling would have prevented the fatality, but so would have more attentive instructor/ jump-mates, an aad, a better fitting rig, et cetera, et cetera.
Quit trying to lay it off on something/someone else. You can have the best instructors giving you the best instructions; you can have an audible in each ear, 2 altimeters, good friends looking out for your young ass, a custom tailored rig make of mink. But if you don’t pull you are just as dead as the guy who is self taught wearing a B-4 cheepo and chest mount. That is the one any only thing a student or experienced jumpers needs to remember…….pull before impact. . But then of course even if you pull you can still die and that’s a reality people seem unwilling to accept.
Sparky
Then why even read the incidents forum? You know the answer before you click. Every time.
QuoteThen why even read the incidents forum? You know the answer before you click. Every time.
"No pull" is not the only way to die in this sport. You've been around long enough to know what I am trying to relay here.
![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]"){kind=small}
Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals
Later, reading through incidents I'm pretty sure I came across a discussion of the incident where it was mentioned that the kid had some depression issues so suicide wasn't entirely unexpected. I tried some key word searches and can't find that thread either, but will keep trying or maybe this rings a bell for someone else who is better at searching on this site.
Edited to add: Think I found the fatality report. It wsa the UK, not Russia. Sorry, not sure why I stored Russia in my brain. 16 year old. 2 jumps. No pull. Listed as suicide on July 12, 2010.
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