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LawnDart21

Raft Dives and AADs

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Fully agreed. What do you believe the original “intended purpose” of an AAD is?



Be only an additional layer of safety on a skydive. IE, make you skydives safer.

If you are increasing the risk of your skydive (ie, raft) and only adding the AAD to compensate for the increase risk, you negate the intended purpose of it in the first place, to make you safer.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

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So YOU are safe on a raft dive because YOU know that YOU won't screw up?

But someone that recognizes that he may screw up or that someone else on the jump may screw up is less safe on a raft dive?

The whole idea that feeling safe makes someone safer is what bothers me. You'll go on a raft dive because you feel safe. Someone that recognizes the increased risk of incapacitation and therefore chooses to use an AAD on that jump should reconsider doing the jump?

The attitude I get from all these AAD threads is that if a person chooses to always use an AAD for jumps with an increased probability of incapacitation, that person is somehow inferior to others that choose to ignore the increased risk.

The risk on a raft dive is independent of what YOU or anybody else thinks it is. YOU don't think it's so risky, because if you did, you wouldn't do them. If someone else DOES think a raft dive has a higher than normal probability of causing them to not be able to pull, that person is not at a higher risk on a raft dive than YOU are. They don't belong there any less than YOU do.

Dave

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>So YOU are safe on a raft dive because YOU know that YOU won't screw up?

I know that I can screw up on every single skydive I ever make. But if I ever get in the plane thinking "thank god I have an AAD for this jump; otherwise I'd really worry!" it would be a VERY good idea to get out of the plane and pass on that particular jump.

>If someone else DOES think a raft dive has a higher than normal
> probability of causing them to not be able to pull, that person is not
> at a higher risk on a raft dive than YOU are.

Sure it does. If I tried to do a head-down jump with 10 other people, and I thought I had a higher than normal probability of corking and taking someone else out, I would be right - because I suck at head down. It would be a much better idea to not do a 10 way head down. Saying "it's OK, I have a cypres" is a very dangerous attitude.

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Missing the point Dave....

Safe skydiving is not accomplished by wearing all the latest and greatest safety gear. Its done by picking and choosing the appropriate skydives based on individual risk tolerances and individual interpreations of the likely outcome of each jump.

In a perfect world, I would like to see everyone jump with an AAD on every jump, why? Because it would give everyone in the sport an additional layer of safety, and thats a good thing. I absolutely concede AADs save lives.

What we are disagreeing on is the point that using an AAD to mititage additional perceived risk is to me: inappropriate; to you; appropriate.
I say its inappropriate because you are now relying on it to offset that additional risk, relying on a mechanical device. You say its appropriate.

I'd feel better if your stance was "wear an AAD on every jump because it makes you safer", as that would atleast be consistent stance, but to advocate that using AADs when adding risk to a jump makes it "okay", that I dont agree with.

Again, go back to the sole purpose of an AAD, to safely open your reserve canopy at the absolute last possible moment before you bounce. If you are willing to jump without one on a "normal skydive", by deduction saying you are capable of preventing that situation from occuring, and not needing the AAD, but then choose to use one on a higher risk skydive like a raft dive, you are saying that there is now a greater chance of not being able to perform that function, above what you are willing to accept without using one, thereby relying on the AAD moreso than you should.

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So YOU are safe on a raft dive because YOU know that YOU won't screw up?



I am safe on any raft dive that I am on because I will only do raft dives with skydivers that I know well, and that I believe are safe and responsoble in the air, whether the dive is successful or not.
I am safe on any raft dive that I am on because I can identify the things that I or any other jumper may screw up and have contingency plans to deal with it.
We all screw up from time to time, the amount of damage it causes is directly related to the amount of prep involved in the jump.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

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I see your point, but people will continue to use AAD's that way. I know a few people that would not jump at all if they didn't have an AAD. I think that is wrong and that they probably should not skydive at all. There isn't any remedy to this. Unless you make having an AAD a requirement for everyone.

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Honestly, in my two short years in this sport I’ve never even heard a suggestion of someone saying or thinking that they will do a skydive they otherwise don’t think is safe simple because they have an AAD. Is there a huge rash of this somewhere I don’t know about? Why do so many people think this is occurring? I just have never seen it. Call it inexperience, but if it’s really a problem I would think after two years I would have at least heard rumor of it, other than on the internet.

I fully agree that people should never participate in a dive in which they feel the risk is too high only because of the mitigating factor of an AAD. That would IMHO be stupid. I also however, believe it is wise to wear an AAD on every jump.
"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

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The best take on this came from Kate Cooper at a bigway camp a few months back. Someone asked her if it would be better to not do bigways without an AAD. She thought about it, and said "If you think you need certain kinds of safety equipment for a skydive, you need to re-evaluate doing that skydive."




Ding, ding, ding......winner.
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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>Honestly, in my two short years in this sport I’ve never even heard a
> suggestion of someone saying or thinking that they will do a
> skydive they otherwise don’t think is safe simple because they have
> an AAD.

You will, just give it time. The language you will hear is something like:

"Do you want to take Joe Newbie on the head-down? Not sure if he's OK."

"He's probably OK. I heard someone say they know his brother, and his brother is a good swooper."

"What if he corks or something and takes one of us out?"

"Hey, that's why I have an AAD!"

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So there is where your arguement is faulty, your reserve is a peice of equipement that acknowledges the unavoidable imperfection of your gear. Your AAD acknowledges the unaviodable imperfection in people. The different is A) the expected frequency of the imperfections occuring (gear = common, human error = uncommon)and B) what we can do to prevent the gear or human malfunctions from occuring.



Disagree. A whore is still a whore whether she charges $15 or $50,000, and a potentially fatal malfunction is still a potentially fatal malfunction regardless of how frequently it occurs.

The only perfect human being I ever met was my ex-wife. Everyone else makes mistakes.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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There is a flaw in your logic comparing Reserves and AADs.

Regarding the need for an AAD, that is a malfunction of the person,



Not necessarilly so. How bout the individual who collides with, or is run over by, someone else, not there fault, Nothing they did wrong. It's the same anomoly that causes the main to malfunction, a "chance" occurance. It is for this reason that and AAD will always be in MY rig.

I don't however, see loss of altitude awareness, or just plain stupidity, as "chance" happenings.

Scott

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>How bout the individual who collides with, or is run over by,
>someone else, not there fault, Nothing they did wrong.

They got on the dive with him. Before we had AAD's, people would actually _not_jump_ with some people because they were zoomy and dangerous. Now with common availability of AAD's that's not as much of a concern. If it _was_ a concern, and you were willing to bump off the load as a result of that concern, then you'd be safer overall.

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Your AAD and your reserve are two completely different pieces of equipement with completely different agendas.

No amount of attention to details can prevent your reserve from being used if you jump long enough.

You can prevent your AAD from ever being used with that same attention to details, regardless of how long you jump.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

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Bill,

the point I am trying to make, and the one those of you who seem to be a little (at least) anti- AAD keep skirting, is the SHIT HAPPENS.

There are a myriad of things that COULD go wrong during a skydive, that u truly have on contol over, that could keep you from deploying at the appropriate altitude. Why not attempt to mitigate the possibilty of paying the "ultimate" price for want of a piece of equitpment?

Do I think an AAD is the end all and be all? NO. Do I believe they do have there own issues? Yes. But you use the "tools" that are availble.

Just my opinion. BTW, I will be the first on my block to put a "skyhook" in my Mirage if/when that becomes an option.

Just my opinion, and I have no ill thoughts about those that choose to accept the inherint risks asscociated with jumpins sans AAD. It's one of the wonderful things about this sport I have discovered, you are free to make your own decisions about almost all aspects of your equiptment.

Scott

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So if I did a solo with someone I totally trusted, hit my head on the door during diving exit and knocked myself out, is that saying I should not have done the skydive if I didn't want to use an AAD?

Really, I dont understand the rational - as reagards this thread- of NOT using an AAD. Your reserve is there if you have an equitpment malfuntion - Your AAD is there if YOU have a malfunction.


(maybe I am lost in this thread tho, I'll go back and re-read it. LOL)

Scott

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See I just think the logic is flawed. I understand the point. Don't do things beyond your SKILL level simply because you have an AAD to save you when you screw up.

But that's not what you said. You said that every skydiver should be equally willing to do any particular skydive with or without an AAD. I can't think of one good reason to do ANY skydive without an AAD (ok I can think of some but you know what I mean). An AAD might save ANY jumper on ANY jump. Shit happens. That's why damn near everyone wears one.

I simply don't buy it that you are safer if you are willing to jump without an AAD. There isn't logic there. You are safer if you don't go on jumps you know you can't handle. You're safest if you sit on the ground and watch.

Dave

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You could create a myriad of what if scenarios that end with you getting knocked out and your AAD saving you. I concede that.

"What if I was front floating and sneezed, and smacked my face off the roof of the Otter and the divers inside thought my sneeze was an exit count and all dove out on top of me and knocked me out........" Yes, I will concede to you in that case, yes, an AAD would save your life and you'd be toast without one.............:S

You could make up a million of those, point is, whats the likelyhood of it happening? Very small. Plus, if you have a $30 protec on your head, your even less likely to find yourself in that scenario.

We could play point counter point all day.........

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

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You said that every skydiver should be equally willing to do any particular skydive with or without an AAD



I never said that Dave, anywhere in this thread (I even went back and reread my posts. Did you even bother to read my posts, or are you just assuming that was what I said.

Here is what I said:
***If your going on any dive where you think you may need an AAD to save your life because there is a chance you wont be able to, may indicate that the dive is beyond your risk tolerance.***

If your gonna quote me, please be accurate.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

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