Hooknswoop 19 #151 August 25, 2005 QuoteI wonder how many now-dead skydivers who went in with nothing out were absolutely, supremely confident that they would pull their own ripcord when the time came? I wonder how many of the now-dead skydivers that thought the RSL was a great safety device, right up until it killed them working EXACTLY as it was designed to? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest #152 August 25, 2005 QuoteQuoteI wonder how many now-dead skydivers who went in with nothing out were absolutely, supremely confident that they would pull their own ripcord when the time came? I wonder how many of the now-dead skydivers that thought the RSL was a great safety device, right up until it killed them? Derek This for me is not a bad summary of the discussion. I believe the numbers weigh heavily on the side that RSLs may have saved many more lives than they may have cost. I'll be getting a Skyhook. You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EvilLurker 2 #153 August 25, 2005 Bill, Yes, those slo-mo videos answered my question. Everyone that states cutting away from a spinning malfunction sends you cartwheeling around all your axis should watch those carefully, in my opinion. I have no doubt it "feels" like you are doing that, after what you have just been through, but in reality, you've got a single axis of rotation that is arrested fairly quickly by the drag of the deploying reserve. That's what I'm seeing, at least. "the test jumper rotates about 170 degrees on the horizontal axis between breakaway and opening." That's what I saw, too. That was a fairly violent spinner for the canopy size. That last clip (video guy) was chilling. He's very lucky to have lived, he had less than a second to spare. After watching those, I have less concern about having line twists on my reserve from an unstable cutaway from a spinner with a standard RSL, and I'd say a Skyhook would actually benefit you (unless you were REAL high) by preventing them. If anyone has a link to a video showing a clear example of an RSL causing reserve line twists, could you post a link? Bill, excellent device. If I replace my current rig, you'll get my business. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #154 August 25, 2005 ALL TSO'd reserves are dropped with three 360 degree twists in the lines (just like in the RWS video). The reserve must be fully functional within few seconds (I forgot how manyexactly). So, why are we worriend about the line twists on the reserves?!? They are designed to fly with them and "untiwist" from them quickly (TSO). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EvilLurker 2 #155 August 25, 2005 Quotewhy are we worriend about the line twists on the reserves?!? It's one of the pillars of the "why I don't use an RSL" argument. While I agree with the dangers in some of the anti-RSL points, the "I want to have time to get stable to prevent line twists" one is bogus. I might concede one twist, from what I've seen so far. (Now watch a movie show up that makes me look like a moron). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #156 August 25, 2005 QuoteIt's one of the pillars of the "why I don't use an RSL" argument. While I agree with the dangers in some of the anti-RSL points, the "I want to have time to get stable to prevent line twists" one is bogus. No, unstable deployments is a cause of malfunctions, not just line twists. Read the incidents, posted in this thread and others, caused by an unstable RSL reserve deployment. The RSL did exactly what it was designed to do, launch the reserve PC immediately after a cutaway, which caused a reserve malfunction and fatality. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EvilLurker 2 #157 August 25, 2005 I agree it's optimal to be stable during a reserve deployment, and yes, an RSL could result in a reserve malfunction, and yes, if you have sufficient altitude to cutaway, get stable, then manually deploy your reserve at a useful altitude, it gives you the best shot. The argument (and you've seen it) that you don't want an RSL while cutting away from a spinner because you're going ass-over-teakettle in 3 axis and you'll get line twists, I don't believe. That's the only point I'm addressing right now. I'm willing to risk the dangers of an RSL for now because I would rather have the extra altitude rather than the extra stability when I deploy. Others may have different priorities. And that's okay. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #158 August 25, 2005 Quote"When will Skyhooks be available on other rigs?" There are other rigs? I thought advertising is not allowed in these forums?Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #159 August 25, 2005 QuoteQuoteI wonder how many now-dead skydivers who went in with nothing out were absolutely, supremely confident that they would pull their own ripcord when the time came? I wonder how many of the now-dead skydivers that thought the RSL was a great safety device, right up until it killed them working EXACTLY as it was designed to? Derek Fewer, by far.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praetorian 1 #160 August 25, 2005 (not a direct reply to anyone) Anyone else find it funney that people are worried about choosing an RSL because it the worst case it could kill you... and yet not worried about their choice of Reserve loaded at or above their already agressive main, which they can land just fine, .... except maybe in a worst case, injured, unconcious, blinded by blood, or just plain disorientated .. like say after a low cutaway from a violent spinner. Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,107 #161 August 25, 2005 >people are worried about choosing an RSL because it the worst >case it could kill you... and yet not worried about their choice of >Reserve loaded at or above their already agressive main, That's because most skydivers cannot picture themselves screwing up. They will be completely heads-up during their mal, always cut away by their hard deck, and land their tiny reserve in the peas (after a short planeout of course) with a flourish. And if that's what's going to happen, you don't need an RSL and you don't need a big reserve. That's one reason I recommend people using RSL's until they have a cutaway or two. That way they will learn that most malfunctions aren't like most jumps. They are generally fast, violent, confusing events, and you have time to do one simple thing right (like cutting away and opening your reserve.) Often taking the time to add even one step to the process, like kicking out of line twists on a small main, or getting stable after cutting away, is enough to reduce your safety margin to zero. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #162 August 25, 2005 QuoteAnyone else find it funney that people are worried about choosing an RSL because it the worst case it could kill you... and yet not worried about their choice of Reserve loaded at or above their already agressive main Because all those arguing over the RSL jump those overloaded reserve canopies... It's like the hook turn debate, its okay for "them" to do them but everyone else does not have enough experience. (I just don't like high performance landings/hookturns). jBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nate_1979 9 #163 August 25, 2005 QuoteThe argument (and you've seen it) that you don't want an RSL while cutting away from a spinner because you're going ass-over-teakettle in 3 axis and you'll get line twists How about the mal (like my first) where the jumper is already spinning on his back, so he doesnt have to be going "ass-over-teakettle in 3 axis" because he's already in a dangerous deployment position when he chops (on my back)? My RSL deployment went just fine, this time, but considering I was most likely still on my back when the reserve PC deployed .... I really dont need a reserve PC coming up between my legs or wrapping around one of them, I'm more worried about that than I am of line twists. I really dont need a reserve horseshoe or wrap to add to my list. FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #164 August 25, 2005 QuoteFewer, by far. Let's see the numbers. You do have the numbers to back that up, right? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EvilLurker 2 #165 August 25, 2005 I was concerned with having 14 or so line twists if I cut away from a spinner. After watching the video, I'm convinced I won't, with or without an RSL. If my reserve PC deploys between my legs, or wraps me, I'll just have to try and clear it, won't I? I think the chances of that are pretty slim, too, actually. My reserve PC launches about 5 feet, and the relative wind is from feet-to-head at the moment you chop a spinner, from what I've seen so far. But if you think it's that risky, don't use an RSL. No problemo. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #166 August 25, 2005 QuoteThat way they will learn that most malfunctions aren't like most jumps. They are generally fast, violent, confusing events, and you have time to do one simple thing right. Often taking the time to add even one step to the process, like kicking out of line twists on a small main, or getting stable after cutting away... [SNIP] .... or disconnecting the RSL in a wrap/entanglement situation.... Quote...is enough to reduce your safety margin to zero. Just thought I'd stick that one in there... God knows it belongs. Nick My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #167 August 25, 2005 QuoteAfter watching the video Which video? If it the Skyhook video, that is a whole different animal. The Skyhook doesn't result in unstable reserve deployments. The Skyhook is not just an RSL. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EvilLurker 2 #168 August 25, 2005 The Skyhook video is fine to study for an RSL comparison, as long as you stop at the point where the main departs. Up to that point, there's no difference between RSL/Skyhook/no RSL at all. I just wanted to see whether a cutaway resulted in movement around more than one axis of rotation. I'd say no. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #169 August 25, 2005 QuoteI just wanted to see whether a cutaway resulted in movement around more than one axis of rotation. I'd say no. On most of my cutaways I was rotating on more than one axis. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,146 #170 August 26, 2005 QuoteQuoteFewer, by far. Let's see the numbers. You do have the numbers to back that up, right? Derek Like your "99%" numbers?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #171 August 26, 2005 QuoteLike your "99%" numbers? Like I already explained, it was to make a point, not a real number, I have since switched to useing the term "vast majority" in place of the 99%. I was using it as a figure of speech. not a real number. Since you are so concerned about hard numbers, I'd like to see yours, unless you just made yours up. Pot meet kettle? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #172 August 28, 2005 QuoteFewer, by far. Got any numbers to back that up, or are you just making stuff up? You are the one that claims to demand hard numbers...so show me some."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #173 August 28, 2005 QuoteSkyhook is no different from an RSL in a collision/wrap situation - you unhook it and cut away...or am I misunderstanding you? No you got what I was sending, both an old RSL and the new Skyhook BOTH require you to disconnect it before you cutaway if you want to fall clear from a canopy collision.... Having been wrapped up in a nother persons parachute spinning like hell twice, I can tell you that very few people will have the presence of mind to remember to disconnect ANY RSL. It is that reason that I don't really like any RSL. It removes choice from you, and in some cases can make things worse.....Imagine cutting away from a canopy collision and now being wrapped with your reserve?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #174 August 29, 2005 QuoteYou are the one that claims to demand hard numbers...so show me some. He expects hard numbers, but the rules don't apply to him, he can make up anything he wants. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #175 August 29, 2005 QuoteHe expects hard numbers, but the rules don't apply to him, he can make up anything he wants. Kinda like how some people can make personal attacks, and others get banned for a PM?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
