Deland Accident - Use this as an example

[riggerrob 643]

Unfortunately, we need a plane crash every few years to remind people to wear their seatbelts.

My pet peeve is Transport Canada refusing to approve Hooker seatbelts.

[AFFI 0]

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Unfortunately, we need a plane crash every few years to remind people to wear their seatbelts.

My pet peeve is Transport Canada refusing to approve Hooker seatbelts.

Yup, I agree, every now and then we need the sacrificial lamb (our liberal friends wont like that comment) to remind us of our mortality.

Concerning the Hooker Seatbelts, okay I’ll bite, what are Hooker seatbelts?

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[SpecialKaye 0]

Many times the ostracizing comes from safety issues. Like was said above, the skygods think that they are above the rules and it is left go and you're made out to be the bad guy.

Blues,
Kaye

[NickDG 23]

>>okay I’ll bite, what are Hooker seatbelts?<<

I'm not sure, but I think Rigging Innovations worked on something interesting after the Perris Otter crash. This was before benches are being used and jumpers are still sitting on the floor. Basically it was a way to connect your rig directly to hard points on the floor. Essentially, your whole skydiving harness became your seatbelt.

I believe liability factors made them pull back from that idea.

NickD BASE 194

[goose491 0]

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Basically it was a way to connect your rig directly to hard points on the floor. Essentially, your whole skydiving harness became your seatbelt.

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the "Hooker" seatbelt is the same webbing and the same clasps as our regular seatbelts but with both female and male bits on the same strap. The female bit is fastened several inches below the male. You'd thusly take the male end, thread it through the legstrap or main lift web of your harness, "hook" it around and connect it to the female.

The liability issues surrounding "hooker" seatbelts stem from the fact that the Safety Standards for our harness webbing and the Safety Standards for the seatbelt hardware are set by different entities.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[riggerrob 643]

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>>okay I’ll bite, what are Hooker seatbelts?<<

I'm not sure, but I think Rigging Innovations worked on something interesting after the Perris Otter crash. This was before benches are being used and jumpers are still sitting on the floor. Basically it was a way to connect your rig directly to hard points on the floor. Essentially, your whole skydiving harness became your seatbelt.

I believe liability factors made them pull back from that idea.

NickD BASE 194

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Actually, the whole project started before the two crashes in 1992. Jack Hooker's (skydiver specific) seatbelts were installed in the Beech 18 that crashed Labor Day 1992 near Hinckley, Illinois.
Jack Hooker brought a keg of beer to the Hinckley memorial service.
Jack Hooker is an old-school skydiver who makes his living sewing custom seatbelts for aerobatic, homebuilt and antique airplanes in his shop in Freeport, Illinois.

www.hookerharness.com

Jack Hooker had an FAA Supplementary Type Certificate to install those belts in a variety of popular Cessna and Beechcraft jump planes.

In 1996 or 1997 - while I was working at Rigging Innovations - I prepared a bunch of popular skydiving harnesses (Talon, Flexon, Racer, Javelin, etc.) for FAA crash-sled tests in Oklahoma City. Most of them returned from the tests with a few popped stitches on the lateral straps.
Most of the crash sled dummies had Hooker belts looped through around hip junctions, while a few of them had Hooker belts looped around both hip joints.
After viewing video of three sled crashes (they crashed more than a dozen sleds) we concluded that most victims would suffer neck injuries, but would remain in place with few other injuries.
I suspect that several of the people who died in the Perris Twin Otter crash were smothered by other victims.
Hooker harnesses may be less than perfect, but they are a huge improvement on anything else available from civilian or military sources. Until the FAA approves skydiver-specific airbags, Hooker's belts are the best available.
A decade later, Transport Canada still refuses to allow us to install Hooker belts in Canadian jump planes. My pet peeve is that none of Cessna's belts are any good in my favorite seat (sitting with my back against the pilot's seat).
To quote a Canadian DZO: "I don't use Cessna seatbelts because they border on useless, but if Transport Canada would approve Hooker belts, I would install them tomorrow."

[NickDG 23]

>>I suspect that several of the people who died in the Perris Twin Otter crash were smothered by other victims.<<

Anne Helliwell, one of the first ones on the scene, was pulling dead friends out of the way looking for live ones . . .

All the survivors are in the back.

NickD
BASE 194

[mjosparky 4]

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The liability issues surrounding "hooker" seatbelts stem from the fact that the Safety Standards for our harness webbing and the Safety Standards for the seatbelt hardware are set by different entities.

The standards for your harness and for aircraft seatbelts are set by the same entities. The FAA. In fact the FAA sets the standards for anything related to aircraft. TSO-C23d covers your harness and TSO-C22 covers aircraft seatbelts. Hooker Custom Harness holds a TSO under TSO-C22f.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Ariosdagger 0]

It always depends on people.
Few years ago I had an argument with a guy (a free lance instructor)about his habit of leaving its helmet on its lap during take off.
It almost ended in a fist fight once on the ground.
Fortunately, the DZO shared my point of view and asked the guy to live.
Never seen him again in the DZ.
So, just speak up!

[JohnMitchell 16]

Good thread. It's sometimes tough to speak up when you're a noob. Sometimes asking the skygod why he doesn't have his seatbelt fastened or his helmet secured for safety "like everybody else does" can embarass him into doing it, especially if you ask loudly enough for others to hear and you're just trying to "learn" why he is so much better than the rest of the f-ing world. A noob can learn a lot from skygods.

Seatbelts are an FAA reqirement, just like reserve in date and staying out of clouds. You can get some big fines levied on your pilot if you get busted. BTW, seatbelts are required to be fastened before the plane starts to taxi, not just before takeoff.

[nael 0]

At my dz (in Australia) no one wears seatbelts in the plane. I saw one guy put it on a few weeks ago and realised then that I never see anyone use them (when I started jumping there werent even any belts in the planes at my dz).

With that in mind, what would happen if only one or two people on a full otter load had their belts on and it crashed? Would the bodies of the other jumpers without belts cause some pretty serious injuries to those with belts or would the injuries of no one having belts on be worse?

After reading this thread, I'd like to start using the belts on our planes, but I just wonder if injuries would be worse since you're then the only thing blocking the path of flying bodies.

www.TerminalSports.com.auAustralia's largest skydive gear store

[mjosparky 4]

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At my dz (in Australia) no one wears seatbelts in the plane. I saw one guy put it on a few weeks ago and realised then that I never see anyone use them (when I started jumping there werent even any belts in the planes at my dz).

With that in mind, what would happen if only one or two people on a full otter load had their belts on and it crashed? Would the bodies of the other jumpers without belts cause some pretty serious injuries to those with belts or would the injuries of no one having belts on be worse?

After reading this thread, I'd like to start using the belts on our planes, but I just wonder if injuries would be worse since you're then the only thing blocking the path of flying bodies.

Worse is a relitive term. But dead only come in one flavor. Wear your seat belt and start speaking up when others don't. Getting hit with a 150 to 200 lb. meat bomb doing 100 mph+ will ruin your day.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[bob.dino 1]

The problem: given our planes have on-floor seating, we have single-point restraints. Kinda like oversize B-12 snaps, and so they don't release under load.

I've been told that harnesses with connectors that'll release under load are not CASA (~= FAA) approved, so they can't be fitted to the aircraft. Catch-22.

Alive and upside-down in a burning aircraft isn't fun.

[mjosparky 4]

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The problem: given our planes have on-floor seating, we have single-point restraints. Kinda like oversize B-12 snaps, and so they don't release under load.

I've been told that harnesses with connectors that'll release under load are not CASA (~= FAA) approved, so they can't be fitted to the aircraft. Catch-22.

Alive and upside-down in a burning aircraft isn't fun.

I am not sure what you mean by connectors that will release under load. It seems to me that if they release under load they are pretty useless.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[bob.dino 1]

My mistake; I should have said that they cannot be released under load.

Car seat-belts can be released when loaded. The clasps on the lap belts that the Perris Otters have can be released under load. Single-point restraints using B-12-style connectors can't.

[Kris 0]

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I am not sure what you mean by connectors that will release under load. It seems to me that if they release under load they are pretty useless.

I believe he's referring to the fact that they need to have the weight unloaded from them before you can release them.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[nael 0]

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My mistake; I should have said that they cannot be released under load.

Car seat-belts can be released when loaded. The clasps on the lap belts that the Perris Otters have can be released under load. Single-point restraints using B-12-style connectors can't.

Hmm interesting. Glad I asked.

Hijack - check your emails dave!

www.TerminalSports.com.auAustralia's largest skydive gear store

[phoenixlpr 0]

In what plane? In our club we don't use seatbelts for C172, C207, but we use for C208.

[bob.dino 1]

Twin Otter & Skyvan, both with floor seating.

[riggerrob 643]

Wearing a seatbelt increases your chances of survival.
The more other passengers wear seatbelts, the greater your chances of survival.
Not wearing your seatbelt because some one else isn't is a lame excuse.

[Capt36 6]

>In our club we don't use seatbelts for C172, C207, but we use for C208

Change your evil ways!!!!!!...
ALWAYS use the seatbelts, in the car, in the plane..... My first realization that seatbelts work, was my worst car crash.... The first realization of their use in planes was "Cowboy's Caravan" - 29Sep85...18 dead, 12 were good friends. That ended my first 'home DZ', literally. No one had worn seatbelts, except the pilot. All died. The plane had polluted fuel. The rubber band stopped at 400 feet. IMHO, the CG shifted, when the owner, or other person(s) 'did something', like move around in the plane. The wing dipped, the CG went to Hell...recovery never happened, the plane 'landed' upside down...heads rolled...literally! Had everyone been strapped in....I suspect that the plane would have landed, with no loss of life.

For this Porter accident, I think everyone was 'belted' in. I truly believe that there would have been death(s), had we not worn seatbelts. On this flight, I wore my old, 'Protec' helmet, since my 'frap hat' was being repaired. For no particular reason, I added the goggles on take-off, even though I planned to remove both, after hitting the magic "1000 foot' altitude. The goggles made it possible to not get fuel splashed in my eyes. Based on the damage I did receive to my skull, I suspect the helmet saved my life.... At the very least, it allowed me to 'walk away' from the accident.

Hey...it is not only your life on the line.... It is the entire plane, and those on board, that are depending on YOU to buckle up! The head gear just makes sense... It never seemed to, in the past... It does now...

Yeah, I shall return to using the 'frap hat', as soon as the repairs are complete. But, I have been using seat belts, since the Caravan went in.... Maybe this message will knock some sense into anyone that feels that seat belts are not needed...!!!!!

Another thing.... You have just crashed. You are not yourself. You are in shock. You are in no position to say how healthy you are. Seek, or accept, expert medical attention. I did not. But, I should have. Do not forget this lesson. I hope that you will never have to take the 'test'. But, here are many of the answers.

I have absolutely nothing to gain, in writing this. You have everything to gain, by heeding what I have said here.

DO NOT BE STUPID! IT MAY KILL YOU, AND THOSE YOU MAY LIKE! IT MAY RUIN A 'PERFECTLY GOOD' AIRPLANE! IT MAY CLOSE DOWN ANOTHER DZ!

I do not believe that I can word it any better... P.S. Today, 15Oct05, I got in two great Skydives! I guess I just lucked up, this time..... Ya'll be careful out there! Remember, buckle up!

Practice random acts of kindness, and senseless beauty...

And, give money for Mr Douglas! www.mrdouglas.org