Vigil2 not working

[Abedy 0]

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Given the nature of the device, I would much rather have an AAD that would rather NOT fire, than one that is trigger-happy.

I spend lots of time in aircraft with the door open, climbing around outside aircraft in flight, and jumping in groups with other jumpers in close proximity, while I spend very little time above 78mph under 750 ft. If my AAD has any doubt that I'm actually down and dirty and need help, I would rather have to stand-down than fire and possibly make trouble of a situation that was fine in the first place.

+10! Couldn't put it better.

The sky is not the limit. The ground is.

The Society of Skydiving Ducks

[Abedy 0]

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Where did that graphic come from?

Directly from Wünnenberg

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I find it hard to believe that the Cypres is the only AAD that takes pressure sample readings often enough to compensate for changes in the weather. That is one of the most basic functions, to determine ground level before a jump.

Well, I had a look at the VIGIL handbook back when they entered the market. Not that I had ever intended on changing, I was just being curious. They state that they attend to the requirements you mention, but... I was sort of surprised to read their "workaround" for the issue of air pressure variations. It's still recommended in the VIGIL2 manual:

3.5. Start Up and Shut Down Procedures
The Vigil® must imperatively be switched ON at ground level of your take-off zone (This becomes the “GROUND ZERO” reference altitude).
Your Vigil® will recalibrate itself for variation of the atmospheric pressure.

Attention: If after a certain time there is a great change in atmospheric pressure (more than 10 hPa), it is recommended that you shut down and restart your Vigil® to guarantee optimal precision.

BTW: I admit that I have happened to forget to switch off my CYPRES on my way home. Altitude difference of -200 meters. CYPRES can handle it handled it, there's no such entry in their manual as to be read in the VIGIL2 manual:

"Vigil® is the most accurate AAD on the market. It becomes operational in a zone of 150Ft/46m above or under take-off level. To avoid unexpected firing of the cutter, you must switch OFF your Vigil® before travelling in a closed vehicle (car, bus, train ...) due to possible air pressure variation.
However, there is no problem travelling in an open vehicle at the drop zone altitude."

The sky is not the limit. The ground is.

The Society of Skydiving Ducks

[Southern_Man 0]

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No man-made device is perfect, so there will always be problems. In this case, what you have to look at are the rates, and the Cypres has the lowest rate of problems.

What are the rates of failure of the Cypres? What are the rates of failure for the Vigil II?

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[Abedy 0]

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As figures aren't published it is possible that cypres simply has a lower false positive than the competition.

I am not that deep into this special matter as you are but it sounds plausible to me. Much more, it makes a lot of sense. I'd rather have an AAD that is not likely or at least very highly unlikely to misfire while I am under a perfectly good canopy. OTOH, the CYPRES save list shows it works. I don't know if there had been cases where CYPRES hasn't cut the loop when it was supposed to do so, but IIRC I saw a poster that stated that CYPRES has always done its job.

I usually do not take part in AAD discussions as they tend to get heated. One argument I never really understand is "Bah, but Airtec has a monopoly and thus it [insert any negative remark you like]" Even if they still had the monopoly this doesn't mean anything in respect to the quality of their product. It's the way they produce - hand-craft I dare to say after visiting their premises - and monitor their production and development that explains the reliability and subsequently superiority of the product.

The sky is not the limit. The ground is.

The Society of Skydiving Ducks

[nigel99 613]

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As figures aren't published it is possible that cypres simply has a lower false positive than the competition.

I am not that deep into this special matter as you are but it sounds plausible to me. Much more, it makes a lot of sense. I'd rather have an AAD that is not likely or at least very highly unlikely to misfire while I am under a perfectly good canopy. OTOH, the CYPRES save list shows it works. I don't know if there had been cases where CYPRES hasn't cut the loop when it was supposed to do so, but IIRC I saw a poster that stated that CYPRES has always done its job.

I usually do not take part in AAD discussions as they tend to get heated. One argument I never really understand is "Bah, but Airtec has a monopoly and thus it [insert any negative remark you like]" Even if they still had the monopoly this doesn't mean anything in respect to the quality of their product. It's the way they produce - hand-craft I dare to say after visiting their premises - and monitor their production and development that explains the reliability and subsequently superiority of the product.

You'll get no argument from me about cypres. As the leader and with the most product in the field, you would expect more not less reports of failure. They obviously have exceptional quality control. I don't believe in conspiracies and there is no way that a commercial company could suppress bad information. (I'm aware of a poster or two who firmly believe that all negative posts about Cypres are deleted)

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[sundevil777 102]

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I do not accept that some brand out there always fails while another never fails.

I don't think anyone has claimed that.

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Do not forget these are complex devices and all of them can fail.

Absolutely correct. However, I think it is quite valuable to examine their relative reliability. Some people seem to have decided that they are all reliable enough and not care about individual incidents as they arise.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[jurgencamps 0]

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Well, I had a look at the VIGIL handbook back when they entered the market.

Attention: If after a certain time there is a great change in atmospheric pressure (more than 10 hPa), it is recommended that you shut down and restart your Vigil® to guarantee optimal precision.

BTW: I admit that I have happened to forget to switch off my CYPRES on my way home. Altitude difference of -200 meters. CYPRES can handle it handled it, there's no such entry in their manual as to be read in the VIGIL2 manual:

"Vigil® is the most accurate AAD on the market. It becomes operational in a zone of 150Ft/46m above or under take-off level. To avoid unexpected firing of the cutter, you must switch OFF your Vigil® before travelling in a closed vehicle (car, bus, train ...) due to possible air pressure variation.
However, there is no problem travelling in an open vehicle at the drop zone altitude."

10 hpa = + 80 m at sealevel. It is not a very normal variation.
You have to switch the VIGIL off before traveling, because it will not switch off when it detects a variation in your altitude. Cypres switches off after 14 hours, during freefall, in the ride to altitude … It is what you call “can handle it”. Last jump of the day, somebody grabs a rig, switches the AAD on and jumps it. Next morning, student grabs gear, get inspected before boarding (AAD is on) and a second time before jumping, AAD is off this time.

Somebody switched on her AAD at home (Cypres) and drives to the DZ (DZ was at a higher altitude). Incident was on this forum and happend at Chicago, I forgot the year. So it is safe to conclude that you better switch it on at the DZ and to mention this in the manual.

Strait from the cypres manual

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If the total time for a flight or a flight with jump (takeoff to landing) exceeds one and a half hours, CYPRES will function normally, but must be reset after landing as the weather could have changed the ambient air pressure significantly in the meantime.
General recommendation: If in doubt, reset CYPRES.

[pchapman 279]

On the original topic, I discussed the issue with the O.P. and it was determined that the Vigil 2 was built much earlier than the LCD v2.20 batch. So, without any other evidence, it can be considered basically a random failure. While it isn't great to have a failure, at least Vigil is quickly replacing the controller / LCD unit.

[Southern_Man 0]

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Absolutely correct. However, I think it is quite valuable to examine their relative reliability. Some people seem to have decided that they are all reliable enough and not care about individual incidents as they arise.

What is the relatively reliable and the respective failure rates of the Vigil and the Cypres?

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[Abedy 0]

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(I'm aware of a poster or two who firmly believe that all negative posts about Cypres are deleted)

Yepp, I imagine these folks musing something like this:
All conspiracy work is done by the MiniResNess - the Ministry of Cypres Immaculateness. All reports about Cypres must be doubleplusgood and labelled with a pic of Big Helmut.

The sky is not the limit. The ground is.

The Society of Skydiving Ducks

[Abedy 0]

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So it is safe to conclude that you better switch it on at the DZ and to mention this in the manual.

They do.
I just found it hilarious that a VIGIL might fire on the way home if you forget to switch it off.
And heck, I always make sure I switch my CYPRES on when I come to the DZ. If I'd ever happen (has never happened yet) to notice it's on, I'll switch it off before proceeding any further.
I have my mantra regarding gear and stick to it no matter the stress or pressure.

I think everyone who has an AAD should use it with a sound mind and not just think it will take care of every circumstance. But CYPRES comes close to it and in my mind is the most reliable AAD on the market.

The sky is not the limit. The ground is.

The Society of Skydiving Ducks

[Skydivesg 7]

I too switch my AAD on each morning just prior to the first jump.

I also do a reserve pin check prior to each jump and I look at the AAD to be sure it is still in working mode before each jump.

If I ever don't remember turning the unit on, I cycle it off and back on. This takes just less than 30 seconds.

Seems fairly simple to me. Know your gear or don't jump it.

I pin checked a guy at a recent boogie who's RSL was hooked to the reserve cable housing. I asked if that was on purpose. He told me no and that he was jumping a rental rig.

He was a fairly new jumper and had already made one jump in that configuration. Needless to say he was a bit shocked.

We had a nice conversation about knowing your gear.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[Ron 10]

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Is that due to longevity in the market? Experience based on that longevity and the number of units in the field? Could be, and it could be that Vigil might have a similar rate in time due to the same factors, but the fact remains that at this time, the Cypres gets the nod.

For me it seems that when each system is 'confused' that each system has a different reaction.

to me it seems when a Vigil gets confused it fires. I don't like that. It seems that the Cypres shuts down.

I personally would prefer it not fire than fire unexpectedly.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[rhopstr 0]

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At present I am super vigilant when the door is opened, because that appears to be the.most vulnerable stage.

Could anyone please provide some more information with regards to above posted quote?

I use rental gear that sometimes comes with an FXC and sometimes with a Cypres or Vigl. Would really like to know what possible dangers to look out for..

Thanks

[nigel99 613]

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At present I am super vigilant when the door is opened, because that appears to be the.most vulnerable stage.

Could anyone please provide some more information with regards to above posted quote?

I use rental gear that sometimes comes with an FXC and sometimes with a Cypres or Vigl. Would really like to know what possible dangers to look out for..

Thanks

D
There are a small number of incidents (2 or 3) where a Vigil has fired when the door has been opened at about 1000 feet. My understanding is that there is a sudden presssure increase that is perceived to be rapid descent.
Please remember that whenever the door is opened, there is a chance that someone has a loose pin or something, so you should always be vigilant. I believe the vigil incidents happened in small planes.

It is a good idea to not be wearing a parachute and seatbelt with the door open. Just before the door opens make sure your seatbelt is off.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[pj_jumper 0]

you would have to first consider something.
how many incidental fires have resulted in death or serious injury.
and how many non fires have resulted in death or serious injury
put those two numbers side by side and tell me which one you want.
im not saying i agree with either
i like the vigil because it is more economical than a cypress

Skydiving without a parachute is easy, its skydiving twice without a parachute that is extremely difficult

[nigel99 613]

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you would have to first consider something.
how many incidental fires have resulted in death or serious injury.
and how many non fires have resulted in death or serious injury
put those two numbers side by side and tell me which one you want.
im not saying i agree with either
i like the vigil because it is more economical than a cypress

It is much more complicated than that. But essentially that is the principle. There are no figures to show any lives 'lost' due to a conservative algorithm. Also remember that our choice of AAD potentially affects others. A no fire means a messy body to be cleaned up, whereas a false fire 'could' under the right circumstances kill everyone on board.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[skypuppy 1]

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you would have to first consider something.
how many incidental fires have resulted in death or serious injury.
and how many non fires have resulted in death or serious injury
put those two numbers side by side and tell me which one you want.
im not saying i agree with either
i like the vigil because it is more economical than a cypress

Every incidental fire COULD HAVE BEEN a death(s) or serious injury(s) other than luck of the draw...

And every non-fire, other than becoming incapacitated in freefall, COULD HAVE BEEN a NON_INCIDENT, if the person involved had pulled the ripcord himself.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[mjosparky 4]

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There are a small number of incidents (2 or 3) where a Vigil has fired when the door has been opened at about 1000 feet.

Do you have a link to these incidents? I spent some time tracking problems with the various AAD’s and can’t recall this happening.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[nigel99 613]

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There are a small number of incidents (2 or 3) where a Vigil has fired when the door has been opened at about 1000 feet.

Do you have a link to these incidents? I spent some time tracking problems with the various AAD’s and can’t recall this happening.

Sparky

Sparky - I've only read it on here, no first hand information.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=3858423;page=1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3876564;search_string=vigil%20door;#3876564

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3859402;search_string=vigil%20door;#3859402

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[skydiverek 63]

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There are a small number of incidents (2 or 3) where a Vigil has fired when the door has been opened at about 1000 feet.

Do you have a link to these incidents? I spent some time tracking problems with the various AAD’s and can’t recall this happening.

Sparky

Yup, it happened, Vigil company acknowledged it and even did their own in-flight tests with Vigil and sudden door opening. They did not fire, then.

[pchapman 279]

To add to that, in the case of a Vigil firing when a door opened, that did prompt changes in the user manual regarding doors during the early parts of the aircraft's climb.

[Skydivesg 7]

To be clear I think it's important to know what type of aircraft on which these events happened.

Most Otters - Pacs - and King Airs do not seal up enough to hold the pressure inside the plane. The doors also do not just pop open. They usually require two people to slide the the door open or at least someone in the optimal position to do so.

In a thread from 2010 someone named Bill posted that a door opened suddenly but when asked to clearify on what airplane this happend there was no further response.

I could be wrong but common sense says that for a door to suddenly pop open it probably has to be a Cessna with a flip up under-the-wing door.

One which has a tight enough seal to hold in some internal pressure which when suddenly released will cause a sudden and rapid change in pressure.

I jump this type of plane quite often and I sit by the door a lot.

In every one of these planes there is a back rest and/or you sit with your back to the firewall.

There is never a good time for an AAD to fire in the plane but if mine were to fire while sitting by one of our doors, the possibility of my pilot chute even getting away from my container much less out the door is nil.

This is no reason to loose situational awareness, just my thoughts.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[dragon2 2]

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So it is safe to conclude that you better switch it on at the DZ and to mention this in the manual.

They do.
I just found it hilarious that a VIGIL might fire on the way home if you forget to switch it off.
And heck, I always make sure I switch my CYPRES on when I come to the DZ. If I'd ever happen (has never happened yet) to notice it's on, I'll switch it off before proceeding any further.
I have my mantra regarding gear and stick to it no matter the stress or pressure.

I think everyone who has an AAD should use it with a sound mind and not just think it will take care of every circumstance. But CYPRES comes close to it and in my mind is the most reliable AAD on the market.

Not that hilarious... Earlier this week, a Dutch/Belgian instructor/rigger had his vigil fire under canopy (velo?) during a jump in NL. According to him probably due to the fact that he didn't switch off his vigil after leaving a Belgian DZ with a higher elevation. Luckily he ended up with a stable biplane.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[piisfish 140]

he is an instructor AND a rigger ?? And he didn't read the manual ??
A simple case of RTFM or AWTFMS (apply what the manual says)

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM