Does anyone else constantly see video with flat flyers who can't track at break off for love nor money?

[kallend 2,148]

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On a big-way it's completely different, and I'll track like a bat outta hell.

And if you over run the wave ahead of you will get some people upset. On the big ways at Perris this last week end, if I had tracked like a bat out of hell I would have run over Remster and maybe caught Kallend.


Sparky

If pigs had wings they maybe could catch me too....

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Remster 30]

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if I had tracked like a bat out of hell I would have run over Remster

Ooooooohhhh really?

Remster

[Tonto 1]

While tracking remains an important survival skill, this is a horses for courses argument.

Generally FF's look good because they have higher airspeed to work with. FS jumpers, especially 4 way, sometimes have 100's or even 1000's of dives together and know their team members charecteristics and canopy behavior pretty well, and so don't feel the need to escape those random "seek and destroy" openings the rest of us are randomly afraid of.

There is no such thing as a "good" tracking position.
Much like flying a wingsuit, there is tracking for distance and tracking for time, and the body positions are different and produce different results.

As Robi says, Gravity is our only engine, speed is our only friend.

The 90mph vertical speed tracks offer little ground speed. They are good for the inner waves of big ways and their slow fall rate prevents them catching the group (or groups) in front. The crusifix track was developed to SLOW DOWN the inner waves and prevent them building too much airspeed and using that to inadvertantly get below the wave ahead.

The 150 mph ground speed tracks REQUIRE 150 MPH vertical speeds to be attained, and you don't get those speeds on a 5 second track.

Most 4 ways shouldn't be using either of these. For them, acceleration is a greater requirment than speed or time because theirs is only a 6 second race. It's the difference between a drag race and the land speed record. Different designs for different challenges.

A 4 way break off should be started with a backslide superpositioning to a track position on the turn. Increasing fall rate is NOT a negative if it provides the hill for the jumper to slide down. Remember, if you could somehow slow your fall rate to zero, your forward speed would also be zero, cos you'd have no engine - like a surfer on a waveless sea.

As the wave provides the energy for the surfer, so the air provides us with our energy.

It's all about how you use the energy you have.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Newbie 0]

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While tracking remains an important survival skill, this is a horses for courses argument.

Generally FF's look good because they have higher airspeed to work with. FS jumpers, especially 4 way, sometimes have 100's or even 1000's of dives together and know their team members charecteristics and canopy behavior pretty well, and so don't feel the need to escape those random "seek and destroy" openings the rest of us are randomly afraid of.

There is no such thing as a "good" tracking position.
Much like flying a wingsuit, there is tracking for distance and tracking for time, and the body positions are different and produce different results.

As Robi says, Gravity is our only engine, speed is our only friend.

The 90mph vertical speed tracks offer little ground speed. They are good for the inner waves of big ways and their slow fall rate prevents them catching the group (or groups) in front. The crusifix track was developed to SLOW DOWN the inner waves and prevent them building too much airspeed and using that to inadvertantly get below the wave ahead.

The 150 mph ground speed tracks REQUIRE 150 MPH vertical speeds to be attained, and you don't get those speeds on a 5 second track.

Most 4 ways shouldn't be using either of these. For them, acceleration is a greater requirment than speed or time because theirs is only a 6 second race. It's the difference between a drag race and the land speed record. Different designs for different challenges.

A 4 way break off should be started with a backslide superpositioning to a track position on the turn. Increasing fall rate is NOT a negative if it provides the hill for the jumper to slide down. Remember, if you could somehow slow your fall rate to zero, your forward speed would also be zero, cos you'd have no engine - like a surfer on a waveless sea.

As the wave provides the energy for the surfer, so the air provides us with our energy.

It's all about how you use the energy you have.

t

Surely at break off on a 4 way, for at least the 2 jumpers travelling adjacent to the flight line, there is such a thing as a good track position? Namely a flt, dearched position that puts them as far away from the group as they can get in the few seconds they have to achieve max separation?
Surely you could also say, likewise, even the 2 guys going up/down flight line have a good position to be in - namely one that separates them from the group as quickly as possible? Obviously it would be better to begin travelling at a faster speed more quickly and sustain it for less time, than to accelerate slowly and have to hold it for longer, perhaps when that 3k beep is sounding etc.

The example i originally used is my experience of watching small (3 or 4) way, typically not massively experienced groups. Forget the Airspeeds and the bigways, i know different rules and skill levels apply. I'm talking about the other 90% of small way FS i'm watching, where people turn to track, and are still just as arched as they were while turning points throughout the whole track, regardless of which direction they might be travelling in.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Tonto 1]

I don't understand your question. (s)

If people are just as arched as they were turning points, they are not tracking - and so cannot be accused of poor tracking.

Of course there is a "good" tracking position... but good for what?

The only requirement for small groups is seperation. If they're not wrapping on opening - they're doing OK. It's all about the margins. You want some, but not so much to put you in with the group following.
It also helps to have enough awareness to know what direction line of flight was - and not to fly your canopy down line of flight either - but that's another subject.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Newbie 0]

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I don't understand your question. (s)

If people are just as arched as they were turning points, they are not tracking - and so cannot be accused of poor tracking.

Of course there is a "good" tracking position... but good for what?

The only requirement for small groups is seperation. If they're not wrapping on opening - they're doing OK. It's all about the margins. You want some, but not so much to put you in with the group following.
It also helps to have enough awareness to know what direction line of flight was - and not to fly your canopy down line of flight either - but that's another subject.

t

What i meant sorry, was when you see someone who is pigeon chested (i.e. arched, chest pushed out) while tracking, with their arms sort of back but almost more out, and legs and straight, but still maintaining an arch not a dearch, and end up transitioning more to a delta, falling down, rather than moving away horizontally.

I understand in some situations a good track is not necessarily the fastest you can do, but in a small group, surely you want to separate sooner rather than later, therefore a dearched fast track held for less time is better than a longer sustained slower arched track?

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[jakee 1,595]

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If people are just as arched as they were turning points, they are not tracking - and so cannot be accused of poor tracking.

The problem though is that they think they are tracking. I was on a 4-way a month or two ago and under my shoulder watched one of the other guys turn away, bring his arms back and nothing else. Didn't even extend his legs. End result he went head down for two seconds and then pulled in about the same spot he'd been in at breakoff. The guy had twice as many jumps as me, and that was the last time I'll jump with him.

For people who just do casual skydives with out much extra coaching or organised loads there really does not seem to be much emphasis put on learning how to get anymore than a basic track.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[skytash 0]

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As for tracking dives, many of them are not max track positions, in fact very few are

I dont have many many tracking dives, but I have yet to do one where I wasnt arching to stay down with the rabbit. And I`m not the worlds best tracker either (gravity loves me ).

In a similar position as Remster, I actually don't enjoy tracking dives that much as even in my FF suit I usually outtrack the rabbit in height definitely usually forward speed too. There are a few people around who I love doing tracking dives with 'cos they really challenge me (although I still wasn't allowed to wear my FS suit ).

That's what comes from learning tracking from flyangel2, kallend and GaryMcG - bodies designed for tracking and I challenge any free-flyer to beat any of them on horizontal separation.

tash

Don't ever save anything for a special occasion. Being alive is a special occasion. Avril Sloe

[BETO74 0]

I usually tend to hold back and not post, I believe your statement on how most RW people lacks of skills to track falls into the mistake I call (generalization mistake) you can’t blame a group of something, in this case “Lack of tracking skills” because of your perception of the subject, instead of understanding that there are good trackers in any aspect of skydiving FF or RW, not because most of skydiver X are with a wing suit makes skydiver X a good tracker or bad. My point is you can’t generalize in this sport. If you are willing to listen and learn from those with more time than you in a skydiving discipline you may be surprise how much you’ll learn.

Carlos

http://web.mac.com/ac057a/iWeb/AC057A/H0M3.html

[billvon 3,116]

>There is no such thing as a "good" tracking position.

I'd have to disagree with that. For RW breakoff, there is indeed a good tracking position, one that gives you maximum horizontal separation in minimum time and at minimum vertical speed.

>Increasing fall rate is NOT a negative if it provides the hill for the
>jumper to slide down.

Often it is. It is easiest to begin breakoff if everyone can see each other, and if everyone is on level it's easier to see each other.

[BETO74 0]

as when you see someone who is pigeon chested (i.e. arched, chest pushed out) while tracking, with their arms sort of back but almost more out, and legs and straight, but still maintaining an arch not a dearch, and end up transitioning more to a delta, falling down, rather than moving away horizontally. ***

I can think of more than a hand full of skydiver that have a problem floating because of how light they, are specially on tracking dives. They out run the rabbit and never seemed to come down. the others try to get the most of our tracking positions to no get under.

It was said before somewhere, altitude gives the skydiver the lead, better be approaching a formation from up high than get low and try to move up. Tha applies to everything reallly openings, malfunctions etc.

Again generalization mistake........

http://web.mac.com/ac057a/iWeb/AC057A/H0M3.html

[Remster 30]

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any free-flyer to beat any of them on horizontal separation.

Well, I wouldnt generalize that much! Any is a big open field!

From my understanding, the 2 best trackers at Eloy are 1 RW tall skinny RW type person, and 1 medium height, even skinier FF type.

Remster

[phoenixlpr 0]

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I'd have to disagree with that. For RW breakoff, there is indeed a good tracking position, one that gives you maximum horizontal separation in minimum time and at minimum vertical speed.

He is just stated that it depends what do you consider good.

Slowest fallrate or maximum distance covered are not going together.

[billvon 3,116]

>He is just stated that it depends what do you consider good.

Right, but for formation skydiving breakoffs there's pretty much one thing considered good.

[phoenixlpr 0]

distance over fallrate?

[peek 21]

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... tracking dives emphasize relativity rather than slow-as-possible fall rates.

Well Bill, that's what I thought, but a while back I was told by someone that he thought they (the FF regulars, more or less) were doing tracking dives to "learn how to track better".

(This could explain why it seemed to me like the OP was implying that FF's were better at tracking!)

You and I flying in the same direction in very close proximity (tracking?) sounds like fun to me, but apparantly some people are calling it the same thing but having something completely different in mind.

[Tonto 1]

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Right, but for formation skydiving breakoffs there's pretty much one thing considered good.

Yes, just like for Formula 1 there is one thing considered good, but it would suck in the Paris-Dakar, right?

As I said - Horses for courses.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[mdrejhon 8]

I'm still fine-tuning my tracking.

At Deaf World Record, I participated in some 20way attempts, as well as some 10ways. I was the guy with the lowest jump number in the attempts, however, there was a number of sub-par trackers and several jumpers were making more mistakes than I did!

I had to get out of a couple of messes when I watched a whole 12-person formation funnel (I was 30 feet away, and not docked), on the final attempt at near breakoff time, so I had to be like a missle out of there. I am not very good at tracking yet, but I really improved more than half a dozen tracking solos and these attempts. There was one occasion where I was the guy that opened the farthest away (On that one, I was part of the first breakoff of the two breakoff waves), though I am not yet reliably nailing that particular "good" track position.

There were a moment that two trackers flew above me, and there were some moments that a tracker flew under me -- and in both cases I had to change course and keep tracking towards clear airspace. In these cases, I had to pulling at 2500 instead of 3000 which is the lowest pulls I've done in my life so far. (The LO instruction was "pull no higher than 3500" for first-wave breakoff and 2500 was okay.)

It's harder than I expected to achieve a "good" flat track. Sometimes I do it very well and sometimes I am sloppy. Being deaf and wearing a full face, it's very hard for me to hear or feel the airflow to judge my track ability. I am told to monitor my "lift" on my back to help me learn to track better. I also try to watch groundspeed changes. Adjusting the cup of my body, etc. I need more tracking jumps with people I know. :-)

Tracking can be so exciting and scary at times.

[billvon 3,116]

>Yes, just like for Formula 1 there is one thing considered good, but
>it would suck in the Paris-Dakar, right?

Right. But we're talking about breakoff here, which is one specific 'course' if you will. The important thing is that if a jumper hears an organizer say "I want to see breakoff right at 4500 and good tracks!" they are referring to a very specific kind of track. Knowing how to do that specific kind of track is critical for safe breakoffs.

[Jackpunx 0]

Im not sure if this will work... but try to borrow a hand held GPS and bring it with you.. it should record max speed..
BTW.. does GPS work on speed in the air?
I use it for my boat.. It cant keep up with the accelleration but.. if I sit in it for a few seconds it will catch up...

[Tonto 1]

"Breakoff" is not one specific course in my opinion.

The breakoff from a head down dive brings with it a lot of airspeed and energy which is very easily converted into forward speed, like a car going from the end of a long straight into a sweeping corner.

Breakoff from a 4 way is almost certainly a drag race from a standing start.

Breakoff from a big way is more like pulling off a starting grid when the lights change. You can't just run into the car in front of you if it's slower.

Tracking dives are more like FS.

Speed dives and distance dives are different again. When I run or compete in a tracking competition, distance rounds are always into the wind, to negate the effect the slow fallers get from the "carry" of the wind, like a canopy would get on a bit of brake. In fact - this is exactly like a canopy flight. You don't get flattest glide and greatest penetration in the same canopy.

Gravity is our only engine. Speed is our only friend.

You cannot freewheel fast down a flat hill.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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BTW.. does GPS work on speed in the air?

If it has reception yes, but it would record ground speed.

[Newbie 0]

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... tracking dives emphasize relativity rather than slow-as-possible fall rates.

Well Bill, that's what I thought, but a while back I was told by someone that he thought they (the FF regulars, more or less) were doing tracking dives to "learn how to track better".

(This could explain why it seemed to me like the OP was implying that FF's were better at tracking!)

You and I flying in the same direction in very close proximity (tracking?) sounds like fun to me, but apparantly some people are calling it the same thing but having something completely different in mind.

Hi i never meant to imply that FF's are better at anything. Some of the best tracking i've seen is done by the likes of Airspeed et al, but what i was trying to point out is that when i see newbies like myself with a couple or several hundred jumps doing 4 way, it seems like they can be quite skillful often turning points, but when it comes to clearing the formation and separating, it all goes to pot. It could be the angles of video i'm seeing, or just the videos in particular i have seen where the tracking actually isn't that good, or as others have pointed out, people in those dives CAN track well, they are just choosing not to (which, in 4 way, if you are not on the flight line, seems odd to me).

Tracking dives are not always about max tracking, but on every tracking dive i have been on, you should ALWAYS max track - at the end, to separate from the others (of which there may be easily 10+ of you in the sky) to get away from one another. Even on regular small way tracks, our usual rabbit turns on the speed at the end, and we end up cranking out hard, flat tracks to keep up with him which definitely is giving us good flat track practice. Yes, we get FS guys tracking with us, but 90% of the time, it's 90% freeflyers, i don't know why (we have equal numbers of both FF and FS people at the dz).

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[kelpdiver 2]

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Im not sure if this will work... but try to borrow a hand held GPS and bring it with you.. it should record max speed..

Aside from the groundspeed issue, you'd have to avoid it recording your speed on exit which could be 80-100knots, plus or minus the winds at that height.

To what horizonal speed can a 4 way type get to in 5 seconds - average, best?

[Newbie 0]

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If people are just as arched as they were turning points, they are not tracking - and so cannot be accused of poor tracking.

The problem though is that they think they are tracking. I was on a 4-way a month or two ago and under my shoulder watched one of the other guys turn away, bring his arms back and nothing else. Didn't even extend his legs. End result he went head down for two seconds and then pulled in about the same spot he'd been in at breakoff. The guy had twice as many jumps as me, and that was the last time I'll jump with him.

For people who just do casual skydives with out much extra coaching or organised loads there really does not seem to be much emphasis put on learning how to get anymore than a basic track.

this is what i meant when i originally posted. Obviously this example is pretty extreme (in so much as it would appear this person didn't even cover ANY horizontal distance - although thats subjective given you were moving away from him and would have been hard to judge) but still - this was pretty much what i have been seeing over and over in videos. Thanks for the recent example.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts