Cypress SAVE

[Hooknswoop 19]

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If you're a student, sure, but a skydiver with 100 jumps who doesn't take the time to understand a very simple piece of equipment on their rig?

How are they going to find out they misunderstand it?

There are a lot of skydivers that know very little about their gear.

Derek

[MarkM 0]

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How are they going to find out they misunderstand it?

How are they going to find out if their closing loop is too frayed? How are they going to find out how their Cypres should be turned on, should have the batteries changed or have a maint done. How should they know how to check to see if their 3 ring system is hooked up right? If their PC is properly cocked? If their spandex PC pouch is too loose?

No one is going to hold your hand off student status with any of the above. If you're not the type of person that can get correct information on the most basic aspects of the gear you own, you shouldn't be jumping.

[billvon 3,088]

>A girl died this year because she didn't understand her Cypres(she
> set it then drove to the DZ at a different elevation) and that's a
> much more complicated piece of equipment than a RSL.

I agree. And if someone that morning had discovered she had set it at home, a lecture from several people would be appropriate, perhaps with a few days off from skydiving if she didn't take it seriously. Telling her to get lost, she should never make another jump, would be inappropriate (IMO.)

[billvon 3,088]

>If you're not the type of person that can get correct information on
> the most basic aspects of the gear you own, you shouldn't be
> jumping.

Based on that criteria, about 25% of skydivers, including people with thousands of jumps who have set world records, shouldn't be jumping. And I have a feeling that even if you saw the above neglect occurring you wouldn't give them your opinion on the subject.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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How are they going to find out if their closing loop is too frayed?

You can look at it and see it. You can't look into someone's head and see that they misunderstnd their EP's.

Derek

[MB38 0]

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If you're a student, sure, but a skydiver with 100 jumps who doesn't take the time to understand a very simple piece of equipment on their rig?

How are they going to find out they misunderstand it?

I understand not understanding how a Cypres works. I could see that oversight.

Somebody misunderstanding a reserve static line is beyond me. When I look at my rig for a gear check, I check the RSL's routing. I think that common sense would lead a person to understand the RSL's function and limitations with a proper gear check.

Then again, if the person isn't doing a "proper" gear check, then they might overlook the RSL altogether?

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[pilotdave 0]

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A girl died this year because she didn't understand her Cypres

I might agree with that if the cypres had fired high. Her death had nothing to do wtih her cypres. She went in without pulling. The cypres didn't kill her any more than her reserve did.

Dave

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Somebody misunderstanding a reserve static line is beyond me. When I look at my rig for a gear check, I check the RSL's routing. I think that common sense would lead a person to understand the RSL's function and limitations with a proper gear check.

Then again, if the person isn't doing a "proper" gear check, then they might overlook the RSL altogether?

I have posted several times in this thread how someone could very easily walk away from their FJC with the understanding that all they have to do is cutaway and the RSL will handle the rest.

Derek

[sundevil777 102]

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Somebody misunderstanding a reserve static line is beyond me. When I look at my rig for a gear check, I check the RSL's routing. I think that common sense would lead a person to understand the RSL's function and limitations

One is wise to not underestimate the ability of one to misunderstand.

Many people are not mechanically inclined. Many are mechanically challenged.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Ron 10]

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Come on! Me? I was not even talking about that.

I don't have RSL and I do jump without AAD anytime.

I had student jumps with mechanical AAD on main canopy.

I had 2 HD jump on my VectorII and I'm not even planing any. Am I device dependent? You must've been kidding.

I think you misuderstood me...I said what you did was perfect and used the lady at the start of this thread to show dependance.

I never said you were, in fact I said you did correctly. I don't know how you got that, but I am sorry that you misunderstood me.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 10]

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A girl died this year because she didn't understand her Cypres

She died because she didn't understand how to stop a skydive with a reserve.

She was not SAVED by a CYPRES due to her misunderstanding how it works.

That is a big difference.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[RayLosli 11]

I don't think there is an answer on a lot of the arguing on. IF/Why/Or, she knew / if she understood the gear or all the bells an whistles. All this argument in defense of No Action Taken. It a big Smoke Screen and is not Relevant. Man this kind of a catch22 thing. You can Go On Forever on why you think she - Took No Action. and WHAT is to Blame for the person to just hang air time till the pyro pops the loop. this is all a big blame game to not deal with the Offense. This feeble defense & argument just goes round and round with no end. This is so Simple.

Back to the original Post:

Details: jumper with 100+ jumps hard a hard pull went back for second attempt, again hard pull.
She them pulled the cutaway ONLY and went back to position. Cypress fired, and she landed out safely.
When asked about the dive and why she did NOT pull the reserve, she stated that she was waiting for her RSL to deploy the reserve. ????
She was spoken too by many on the ground.
Question to all is: Is this a grounding situation?
.
Answer to all is: YES
.
Fact is there are jumpers out there that don't have any mechanical aptitude what so ever. It just amazes the shit out of me because they jump year after year and nothing ever happens to them. Some never even pack there Main Canopy. I mean Never. It's either lack of mechanical aptitude or there just plain LAZY.
You can call skydiving a sport but the fact is when your pulling of your Chosen Stunts in the Air called Disciplines. You are relying on a MECHANICAL MACHINE made of fabric and hardware to save your life in the end. It basically take WORK to learn the mechanical workings of a Rig and how all the components work together.
Nobody's asking a person that Fails to Take NO Action to pick-up a Master Rigger ticket as a requirement to actually STAY ALIVE .
All there asked to do is take responsibility for there Action on a skydive and be - Attitude aware - Get Something Out - And If nothings OUT. go to Plan-B. you ask ? Yes Plan-B. You take your hand and PULL the Reserve.
THE ONLY reason a person does not pull there reserve is if they Brain-Lock.
Brain-Lock leads to No Action Taken. No Action Taken leads to a Cypres fire. Cypres Fire leads to - Grounding.
.
Look it's not that big a deal. Grounded is a Time-Out. A Time-Out to think of what you Did Not Do. A Time-out for That Person to think of why and attempt to find Answers.
A Grounding is a Learning experience. A time to think. Why they did not die and why they could NOT save there own life.
.

[kelpdiver 2]

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A girl died this year because she didn't understand her Cypres

I might agree with that if the cypres had fired high. Her death had nothing to do wtih her cypres. She went in without pulling. The cypres didn't kill her any more than her reserve did.

We had the long thread on it. Had she activated her Cypres at Perris instead of at home, odds are damn good that she would have survived whatever mistakes she made in not pulling. So yes, her death had a lot to do with the Cypres. It was the last link in the chain.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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You can Go On Forever on why you think she - Took No Action. and WHAT is to Blame for the person to just hang air time till the pyro pops the loop. this is all a big blame game to not deal with the Offense.

You missed my point(s).

1) You are wrong about "No Action Taken". She cutaway and expected the rSL to activate the reserve. When it didn't, she was unable to figure out why and take action.

2) I am not blaming anyone, that is my whole point. I am trying to explain how this can happen even with a good student and good training.

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THE ONLY reason a person does not pull there reserve is if they Brain-Lock.

That is an over simplification. She didn't brain-lock at first, she did pull her cutaway handle. It isn't so simple that she had a mal, brain locked, and the AAD saved her. If she hadn't have misunderstood how her RSL works, she would have cutaway and pulled her reserve, or just pulled her reserve. That is my point. She can and did take action, but because she misunderstood her RSL, did not pull her reserve handle.

Derek

[ladyskydiver 0]

1 - She should be grounded and while being grounded be retrained on EP's. She, also, needs to seriously think about whether or not this sport is for her. The highest priority on a skydive is to SAVE YOUR LIFE and not harm others. She did not. She relied on a piece of equipment to save her ass.

2 - At approximately 100 jumps, there is absolutely no reason that she should not know her cut-a-way procedures and do what she needs to to avoid that big green (or brown in some locations) ground coming up at her.

And, honestly, I can say that if I was the one doing the retraining, I'd probably be suggesting a beautiful bowling ball. I know how many times I was made to practice a cut-a-way despite having safety equipment on the rig. I know how many times my instructors made me do it to ensure that I did it right should I need it. When I was getting my coach's rating and helping instruct the AFF class, I know how many times that I made the students go through their EP's. Yes, the RSL and AAD were mentioned in those classes so that the students knew what was on their rig but it was stressed that there is absolutely no guarantee it will work and that their FIRST priority is to pull BOTH handles in the correct order.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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And, honestly, I can say that if I was the one doing the retraining, I'd probably be suggesting a beautiful bowling ball. I know how many times I was made to practice a cut-a-way despite having safety equipment on the rig. I know how many times my instructors made me do it to ensure that I did it right should I need it. When I was getting my coach's rating and helping instruct the AFF class, I know how many times that I made the students go through their EP's. Yes, the RSL and AAD were mentioned in those classes so that the students knew what was on their rig but it was stressed that there is absolutely no guarantee it will work and that their FIRST priority is to pull BOTH handles in the correct order.

Again, this is a hidden danger of the RSL. If you are expecting it to activate your reserve, event hough you know to pull both handles, when it doesn't, it could cause you to panic and freeze up.

I'm not saying this is what happened, but it could be what happened.

I am not saying that if this is what happened, then it is not her fault.

I am saying we should consider it as a possibility and think about how to prevent it from happening.

I am thinking not just about this jumper, but all jumpers. How do we prevent this from happening? How do we prevent someone from thinking all they have to do is cutaway and the RSL will handle the rest?

Derek

[kallend 2,115]

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Many people are not mechanically inclined. Many are mechanically challenged.

That is very true, and a serious problem in our society IMO.

I see this as a direct consequence of removing a lot of hands-on activities from school curricula, of the throw-away society where we never try to fix things, and of the design of products that thwart being taken apart by the inquisitive.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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[goose491 0]

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They won't know they misunderstood their EP's until they either need them, read something, or hear something.

Let's add "Whichever comes first." to that line and we've got a winner. At 100 jumps, she was lucky she hadn't "needed them" yet, but naiive as she hadn't "read something, or heard something."

Again I repeat, it's not that I don't understand your point. You present a very sound possibility as to how this happened. But you do so, sorta in an absolving way... Taking responsibility away from the jumper.

Like an accidental shooting and: "He didn't know it was loaded!". Well that works if you tossed him the gun and it went off when he caught it, but not if he's been totting it around with him for the last month.

That's why in my example, I present a student who has been purposely misinformed by her FJC... because by 100 jumps, she ought to have figure it out.

I emphasize what I have from your quote, because it is apparent that during her 100 jumps, she did not read something or hear something...

I don't know a single skydiver who won't tell you you have to be proactive and self-educating in this sport. Especially after you are solo.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[riggerrob 643]

I know several instructors who refuse to mention RSLs and AADs in their first jump course because they do not want students depending upon gadgets to save their lives.

The flip side of that is that many skydivers have forgotten large chunks of their first jump course by the time they have 100 jumps.
It scares me how many licensed skydivers pull handles out of sequence when their reserves are due for repack!

[ladyskydiver 0]

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How do we prevent this from happening? How do we prevent someone from thinking all they have to do is cutaway and the RSL will handle the rest?

Part of me wants to say that we shouldn't mention the safety devices - RSL and AAD - to ensure that the student is thinking about pulling handles. They are taught how to deal with mals - 2 out, etc. - so "forgetting" about mentioning the RSL/AAD would be good in that their concentration will be pulling their handles and dealing with the appropriate mal as required and not hoping some gizmo will save them.

On the other hand, I, also, want the student to be fully informed and educated on what is on their rig and why it's there with the usual disclaimer that there is no guarantee it will work.

There are pro's and con's to both scenarios.

I guess I would prefer to "forget" to tell the student and then if they ask "hey...what's this gizmo" explain it to them. Not hide the information but not overwhelm them with all the stuff that is involved in a student rig and then explain more to them as they go through getting their licenses and buying their own rigs.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Let's add "Whichever comes first." to that line and we've got a winner.

Agreed.

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Taking responsibility away from the jumper.

I don't mean to take away responsibility from the jumper. I am only trying to present how it could have happened, without oversimplifing it down to she just froze, because it isn't that simple.

How do we prevent this from happening again? How do we fight human nature and prevent jumpers from relying on an RSLor AAD? That is where I have been trying to take this thread.

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That's why in my example, I present a student who has been purposely misinformed by her FJC... because by 100 jumps, she ought to have figure it out.

Fair enough, she should have, but why didn't she? Did she not do enough to ensure she understood her training? If yes, then why? Why did she feel she knew her EP's well enough to be safe that she didn't seek out more training? What was missing that may have given her an indication that she misunderstood? How can other jumpers that are in the same exact situation be indentified and corrected before they have their AAD fire?

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I don't know a single skydiver who won't tell you you have to be proactive and self-educating in this sport. Especially after you are solo.

Sure, but what do you work on? If you think your EP's are solid, why would you seek more training on them or check to make sure they are correct?

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Part of me wants to say that we shouldn't mention the safety devices - RSL and AAD - to ensure that the student is thinking about pulling handles. They are taught how to deal with mals - 2 out, etc. - so "forgetting" about mentioning the RSL/AAD would be good in that their concentration will be pulling their handles and dealing with the appropriate mal as required and not hoping some gizmo will save them.

On the other hand, I, also, want the student to be fully informed and educated on what is on their rig and why it's there with the usual disclaimer that there is no guarantee it will work.

There are pro's and con's to both scenarios.

Exactly, you see the conflict between too much and too little information. They can both cause or prevent problems. Too much and they may simplify it down to, "all I have to do is cutaway.", too little and they don't know how everything works, which could cause a problem.

So how does everything get taught so they understand and are not overwhelmed?

Derek

[IanHarrop 42]

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So how does everything get taught so they understand and are not overwhelmed?

We probably can't, but maybe we take the idea of Safety Day and find a way to persuade people into a more formal review of their EPS on a regular basis. Some riggers do this by asking people to go through things and dump their reserve prior to a repack, mine does and I like it.

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[ladyskydiver 0]

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So how does everything get taught so they understand and are not overwhelmed?

That is something that teachers deal with every day. What works for 1 person will not work for another, and I know we don't have time to teach each prospective student 1 on 1.

Hmmm....nothing's perfect and I'm sure there are a ton of holes in what I'll suggest.

FJC - don't teach them about AAD/RSL's unless they ask what they are and then give minimal info but not brush off the student's questions/concerns. Stick with the KISS priniciple of keeping it simple

Assuming they continue past FJC, incorporate into safety day a discussion on RSL/AAD and allow pro's, con's, etc. to be discussed; utilizing the hanging harness and demonstrating correct EP's.

When they buy their rig and go for their first repack, have them deploy their reserve and sit with the rigger packing their reserve.

Come up with a program of continued education about the sport and their gear. There is a lot of wonderful knowledge out there, and even if it's not a formalized program, having the people with the knowledge say "Hey...over a beer/soda and pizza (food and drink seem to always get people to attend stuff), let's discuss (insert topic here)." I know that I've bugged Brian Germain, Scott Miller, and quite a few others on gear and jumping and have found that the people are so willing to give the information and teach you something that I find it hard to fathom that people don't continue learning - even if they are just lurking a forum and reading most of it.

Part of the issue as well is the fact that at 100 jumps, the jumper shouldn't stop learning about the gear they are using or the sport we're in. So, we also have an issue with unmotivated jumpers not willing (or know where to go) to learn more about their equipment.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[thepollster 0]

Once again, I ask why we don't stop speculating on this and ask the jumper in question? She is still alive, after all, and is the one who knows if the system failed her, or if she simply froze.